How many picks to use?

[Jeremias]

Delistings
French-retired
Davies
Prendergast
Chambers
Longmuir
Sporn
Livingston-may stay if Thornton leaves, otherwise GONE.
Smith-rookie

Now, assuming that Livo goes, that is 7 off the main list, and one off the rookie list.

Elevate
Batson-we are in NO position to delist young developing ruckmen

Draft
1. Gibbs
17. O'Brien/Connors/Petterd
19. Renouf
35. Best available
51. Best available
67. Best availaible
nd 2 rookie spots freed up by the elevation of Batson and delisting of Smith
Rookie draft 1.
Rookie draft 17.


(too hard to predict who will still be around at the later picks)

That would leave us with no PSD pick. I think the club will want one, seeing as it is the first pick that we have, so Bryan may find himself in a bit of trouble, which is unfortunate as we need ruckmen. If only Teague, Saddington and Deluca weren't contracted

PSD 1: hopefully Laycock

So that would mean the main list changes are:

IN
Gibbs
O'Brien/Connors/Petterd
Renouf
Pick 35
Pick 51
Batson (rookie)
Laycock
Rookie Draft 1-hopefully Smith
Rookie Draft 17-take a punt on another kid

OUT
French
Davies
Chambers
Prendergast
Longmuir
Sporn
Livingston
Bryan
Smith (rookie)

 

[SA Blue]

A pre season draft pick does not cost you nothing

Who would have you picked in last years PSD?

Also this years National Draft so we can have it on record.

 

[BlackGoanna]

Delistings


That would leave us with no PSD pick. I think the club will want one, seeing as it is the first pick that we have, so Bryan may find himself in a bit of trouble, which is unfortunate as we need ruckmen. If only Teague, Saddington and Deluca weren't contracted

PSD 1: hopefully Laycock

So that would mean the main list changes are:

IN
Gibbs
O'Brien/Connors/Petterd
Renouf
Pick 35
Pick 51
Batson (rookie)
Laycock
Rookie Draft 1-hopefully Smith
Rookie Draft 17-take a punt on another kid

Smith (rookie)

Agree with your choice of in's, particularly Renouf at 19 (must happen imo). I think we can leave Batson as a rookie for another season and keep Bryan on list for another year. We would then have Deluca, Mclaren, Bryan sharing duites in the Seniors with Batson and Renouf developing

 

[Effes]

Who would have you picked in last years PSD?

Also this years National Draft so we can have it on record.

I would have gone after Salopek and if that had fallen through drafted a youngster.

These were my thoughts on McLaren last September

http://talkingcarlton.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=137845#137845

As for the National Draft I wouldn't have a clue
I've seen them play a few times but that isn't enough to make an evaluation of whether they can make it or not. I'm sure the recruiters are extremely meticulous in who they recruit.......

Unlike McLaren, who has been in the system for a number of years and therefore was able to be evaluated based on his performances.

 

[Salaryman]

Agree with your choice of in's, particularly Renouf at 19 (must happen imo). I think we can leave Batson as a rookie for another season and keep Bryan on list for another year. We would then have Deluca, Mclaren, Bryan sharing duites in the Seniors with Batson and Renouf developing

Come draft day i for one will NOT be disappointed with the club if we don't draft Renouf at 17 or 19, I don't think we are yet in a position with our list to be drafting for need, so if we do this, we do it with a later pick. FWIW i have some mids/ball carriers in front of Renouf on my list of best available around our PP and 2nd rounder, and i suspect Renouf will go around mid to late 20's. I would definitely use #35 on him, but not 17 or 19 IMHO. Get best available in the early rounds, get a ruckman to develop later on in the draft, and look at one of the good ruck prospects in next years draft. Kreuzer might be around the mark for our first round pick, if not we would be a certainty to pick up McEvoy or Bellchambers in the second round i would imagine.

 

[Johnny_3]

i think with our later picks we need one bottom age prospect and one 200-205 ruckman

 

[Bluebear]

I would have gone after Salopek and if that had fallen through drafted a youngster.

Didn't know he was avaiable in the PSD.

These were my thoughts on McLaren last September

http://talkingcarlton.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=137845#137845

Interesting. How tall is Jeff White? Seems to be a "handy" ruckman.
Height is not the only factor for a ruckman, he is young and we don't have anyone else.

 

[Effes]

Yeh..........Jeff White happens to have a good leap but even that isn't enough. He frequently gets beaten by the bigger rucks

Why don't we have anyone else? Pagan has had four drafts to pick and develop a ruckman himself but for some reason hasn't done so

 

[Johnny_3]

Yeh..........Jeff White happens to have a good leap but even that isn't enough. He frequently gets beaten by the bigger rucks

Why don't we have anyone else? Pagan has had four drafts to pick and develop a ruckman himself but for some reason hasn't done so

i think jeff is like 29ish... not young and no point going after him or even talking about him if his over 24 thanks to smoron...

 

[Furn]

I dont really understan this draft thing........you only get a pick in the PSD if u pass in the 'real' draft? Does that go for the rookie draft as well.

no u dont have to pass as such u juz have to have room on your list so if u delist say 10 players and pick 9 in the draft u can pick one in the psd . So in theory u can have 30 picks in the draft if u delist 31 players but 25 of them will be the last 25 or so

The rookie draft is a separate list but again u can pick as many players as u have room for

 

[Bluebear]

i think jeff is like 29ish... not young and no point going after him or even talking about him if his over 24 thanks to smoron...

Missed the point Johnny 3 - just saying he is about the same height as McLaren, and considered by many (other than Effes) as one of the best rucks in the comp.

Pagan has had four drafts to pick and develop a ruckman himself but for some reason hasn't done so

As for picking young rucks inthe draft and trying to develop them.
Mott - O.k. didn't work, but fits this category
Bryan
Deluca
Batson
Both O'Hailpins

Has it been successful........not by any stretch - the jury is still out on the last 3.
But to say Pagan hasn't actually tried to get youngish rucks drafted is nonsense.

 

[Effes]

It isn't nonsense

He has not picked one rookie ruckman in the National Draft

 

[BlackGoanna]

Come draft day i for one will NOT be disappointed with the club if we don't draft Renouf at 17 or 19, I don't think we are yet in a position with our list to be drafting for need, so if we do this, we do it with a later pick. .

I dont understand how you can rate ruckman against midfielders and say he is 22 or he is 28. You could say perhaps a 2nd rounder or 1st rounder, ect, or you can line up mids against eachother.

The fact is that Renouf is the second best in the draft so someone wanting a ruckmen will go for him in the second round (IMO is a second rounder), If we dont pick him upo another club will in the second round.

 

[Thunderstruck]

More 20/20 hindsight........I guess everyone saw Rutten's injury coming too right...y'know, being a ruckman and all, I just KNEW he would get a knee injury. Oh, hey while I'm at it I just KNEW Goodes would get the brownlow.

HEY D#CKHEADS...................PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD AND THE OLD DARK NAVEY'S...............TYPE "I THOUGHT".........YOU DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING - YOU SUSPECTED, THOUGHT, etc..........

By the way all of todays hacks were kids once too..............that would have to get a vote as one of the most meaningless statements I've ever read.

Drafting isn't an exact science.

I hate this time of year.

In English please

At the end of the day Carlton have had ample opportunity to pick up some young rucks, just look at Maric, Meesen, Wood, Deluca. At least 3 of those will become genuine AFL ruckman of the future....and Carlton certainly had those early draft picks.

But getting back to McLaren, he isn't exactly the greatest footballer...and picking him up as a ruck is not exactly helping your club, hell there are blokes like Dean Cox, Brendon Lade, Darren Jolly, Aaaron Sandilands who would rape McLaren blind in the ruck every day of the week. He is a VFL ruck at best, more like ur typical bush ruck, few taps, few marks odd goal here and there.

Just set yourself to go for Gibbs, Im sure u will, possible Renouf with the next pick. If not there is Kreuzer next year who is an excellent talent....pit him against McLaren right now he'd towel him up.

All the best teams in the AFL have genuine TAP ruckmen.

West Coast = Cox
Fremantle = Sandilands
Adelaide = Clarke (retired now)
Sydney = Jolly

There is no substitute for a gun ruck, they are a must, you cant recruit half decent rucks, important to go for the best possible ruck. Think McLaren V Dean Cox...who would be giving their midfield first use???

 

[Bluebear]

If your going to mount an arguement against me make sure you actually understand what my arguement is. I actually agree with many of your points.

At no point have I ever claimed that McLaren is a good ruck. I have refuted that its not just because of his height. I have also said he is young and MAY improve (sorry Effes - I don't own a crystal ball)

I dispute that we have not drafted any rookie rucks. Batson and the O'Hailpins are all 199cm plus so fit the height profile. As to whether they can actually hold down the positon is yet to be seen. But they have been drafted.

Yes we have drafted crap rucks - could we have done better, no doubt, but gee, we passed on James Hird as well - there is a **** load of luck invovled in ANY drafting.

To draw comparisons to SA and WA clubs is unfair.
You guys can scout your entire comp of non AFL players and spot the up and comers. Thats why you have done so well with rookies. We don;t have the resources to have scouts at all WAFL or SANFL games. Instead we can watch VFL, but of course due to our AFL policy, half the guys running around belong to AFL clubs.

 

[Bluebear]

In English please

would rape McLaren blind in the ruck every day of the week. He is a VFL ruck at best, more like ur typical bush ruck, few taps, few marks odd goal here and there.

I prefer my version of English. Thanks.

 

[Salaryman]

I dont understand how you can rate ruckman against midfielders and say he is 22 or he is 28. You could say perhaps a 2nd rounder or 1st rounder, ect, or you can line up mids against eachother.

The fact is that Renouf is the second best in the draft so someone wanting a ruckmen will go for him in the second round (IMO is a second rounder), If we dont pick him upo another club will in the second round.

This is the way i see recruting, especially for us at the moment...i am happy for people to disagree, this is just my opinion....

I made my point because we don't have a strong and deep enough list to be recruiting for need. I can't remember where i saw this or the exact stats, but in your second round pick there is only roughly a 30% chance (or thereabouts) somebody might be able to remind me of these stats or who posted them, that your pick is going to make it in the AFL.....so for mine recruiting is about rating the players who you thin khave the attributes to make a 100 or 150+ game AFL player, whether they be midfielders or rucks.....and you pick the guys with the most talent with your early picks, regardless of position. How do you judge ruck against m id? Well i don't thin kyou do, nor do you have to.....we would be judging Renouf (or his potential in the future more to the point) to compete against or ruck to the level of the top AFL ruckmen....Cox or Fraser or White....then we compare him to blokes he might be rucking against in the future such as Kreuzer or McEvoy (who both might be in front of him even though they don't qualify until next years draft), then you rank them....it might be the later picks where you can take a punt on picking a bloke for position......as far as i have been able to work out from watching the champs and other games is that the pool of talent between 15 and 25 mainly consists of ball carriers..... Having said that, we probably also have to take a punt on where we thinnk we can pick up a ruck prospect with potential this year, if we wait until #35 chances are one of Tippett, Renouf or Hampson would still be available there, we may not get Renouf, but he may not end up being the best ruckman in the draft, but we get for arguments sake, Gibbs, O'Brien and Armitage, 3 ball carriers who are already at the top level but also have lots of upside, and then we get a ruckman to develop as well.

It is all about taking a punt on where you think you will be able to pick somebody you want up.

 

[marcmurphy3]

This is the way i see recruting, especially for us at the moment...i am happy for people to disagree, this is just my opinion....

I made my point because we don't have a strong and deep enough list to be recruiting for need. I can't remember where i saw this or the exact stats, but in your second round pick there is only roughly a 30% chance (or thereabouts) somebody might be able to remind me of these stats or who posted them, that your pick is going to make it in the AFL.....so for mine recruiting is about rating the players who you thin khave the attributes to make a 100 or 150+ game AFL player, whether they be midfielders or rucks.....and you pick the guys with the most talent with your early picks, regardless of position. How do you judge ruck against m id? Well i don't thin kyou do, nor do you have to.....we would be judging Renouf (or his potential in the future more to the point) to compete against or ruck to the level of the top AFL ruckmen....Cox or Fraser or White....then we compare him to blokes he might be rucking against in the future such as Kreuzer or McEvoy (who both might be in front of him even though they don't qualify until next years draft), then you rank them....it might be the later picks where you can take a punt on picking a bloke for position......as far as i have been able to work out from watching the champs and other games is that the pool of talent between 15 and 25 mainly consists of ball carriers..... Having said that, we probably also have to take a punt on where we thinnk we can pick up a ruck prospect with potential this year, if we wait until #35 chances are one of Tippett, Renouf or Hampson would still be available there, we may not get Renouf, but he may not end up being the best ruckman in the draft, but we get for arguments sake, Gibbs, O'Brien and Armitage, 3 ball carriers who are already at the top level but also have lots of upside, and then we get a ruckman to develop as well.

It is all about taking a punt on where you think you will be able to pick somebody you want up.

Good argument. I wouldn't mind taking Tippet if he is around at 35. He is also a year older than Renouf and 6 kilograms heavier. He knows how to tap from basketball.

 

[Pafloyul]

(sorry Effes - I don't own a crystal ball)

It is called reasoning.