How you rate our draft?

[DoItForCaptBlood]

You are not bothered that Hicks is the size of a garden gnome?

Way off the mark there Tugga...


....when was the last time you saw a wafer thin gnome?

 

[santa claws]

Santa's right, we have no small forwards worth a pinch of shit at this stage, unless King can repeat his late season form for a full year, then four more years. Even then we still need another couple. I have no hope for Nahas but Hicks has promise. Crucially he is lightning fast, whether he makes it will come down to his finishing, which needs some polish.

totally agree. is your post being succinct.

 

[santa claws]

You are not bothered that Hicks is the size of a garden gnome?

yep you got it there if anything prevents hicks from making it it will be his size in this area he is a long shot.
imo he has better attributes than nahas pace and i know theres a knock on his kicking but i dont see any real chronic flaw.

for sure we need to get another small forward or two on the list.how about we target a clever goal kicking mid. or maybe we use a reasonable pick just for once on a small forward instead of rookie and really late nd picks.

 

[richoatthedisco]

You are not bothered that Hicks is the size of a garden gnome?

He's a kid. He already looks like he's come back with a bit more size, besides, is Garlett anything but skinny? Betts? Ballantyne, Milne, Rioli, Lindsay Thomas - none of them is exactly Hercules.

totally agree. is your post being succinct.

Yes, but why ask me? It wasn't me criticising your lack thereof.

yep you got it there if anything prevents hicks from making it it will be his size in this area he is a long shot.
imo he has better attributes than nahas pace and i know theres a knock on his kicking but i dont see any real chronic flaw.

I'm not saying Hicks is a bad kick but the best small forwards are absolute dead-eyes. Milne is a beautiful kick, for example. But yeah, nothing in Hicks' kicking that can't be polished.

for sure we need to get another small forward or two on the list.how about we target a clever goal kicking mid. or maybe we use a reasonable pick just for once on a small forward instead of rookie and really late nd picks.

We have a clever goal kicking mid - Mitch Morton. We drafted a similar type in D-Mac. Jakobi is reputed to be a goal kicker. Edwards can develop in this area too, and we should get plenty of goals out of Cotch, Martin and Lids if/when he gets back in the midfield. Collins was a loss in this area though. And I do like players who kick goals so I am not against recruiting more of them.

Rookie and late ND picks are where every small forward gets drafted, bar Cyril. Hopefully another little genius like him pops up in the next couple of years. If so, you can bet we'll use pick 12 on him, given he was our second choice after Cotch in 07. Other than that, as with ruckmen, late and rookie picks are the best bet for small forwards. Find a quick, skillful footballer that everyone overlooked because he was small. I know we have a poor record but I would like to see us rookie an Aboriginal kid or two for this role - they just have that innate skill and sense for the game. There were a few I was amazed no one touched, like Jordan Eades, Matthew Rankine and even Terry Milera. But perhaps it's best not to get them at 18, rather 21 or so.

 

[_RT_]

no you still miss the point. im not talking betts up at all. but even his returns when still relatively young of 19 21 and 17 goals a game when carlton were struggling is better than any return that our boys have produced.

Are they really? Nahas has averaged a goal a game for 2 season(34 from 33) just like Betts averaged a goal a game(60 from 57) for those 3 seasons.

simply put if you dont rate betts i cant see how you can rate our lot.
one point you are totally missing is i dont rate betts either ive said it ad nauseum and am getting sick of having to repeat myself.what im saying is not rocket science.

Sorry but I never said you rated Betts, I used you saying that we'd all be going gaga if one of our forwards had kicked similar goals to what he has. I then produced figures to show that we have had a small forward put up similar numbers to what Betts did early in his career.

you want your cake and eat it too. on one hand betts is crap despite performing better than our lot yet on the other hand our lot are okay depite having performed worse than betts. how can that be.

Never said that Betts was crap either. Considering what he has has to work with I think he has put up pretty reasonable numbers for his career, considering his first 5 seasons were at Fevs feet while last year he was pretty much the focal point alongside Garlett. As for our lot being ok. I already posted that I didn't think Nahas was that good last year but can see the reasons why a small forward would struggle given that we started 0-9.

im not even going to attempt to explain the 20 22 24 principal because i can see you will just be silly about it. suffice to say we are not talking about players reaching full potential at those ages

Who is being silly? You said the general rule was that smalls get until their 20, which when you look at it would equate to 3 seasons in the system for most. Surely regardless of age Nahas can be afforded the same 3 seasons to show whether he can make it or not.

so garlett in just yr 2 kicks 39 21 as you say almost as a permanent fp.
also he manages 12.25 possesions a game. to top it off he does not have obvious skill deficiency like nahas and while still skinny looks like he has some scope to improve his size.

nahas a mature player older than garlett also in yr 2 you would expect him to have a bigger impact than garlett kicks 13 13 with a little time in the midfield. yet despite the extra freedom manages just 12.5 possesions agame.

Garlett also played for a side that has won 24 of 44 games in the last 2 years. Nahas played for a side that has won 11.5 of 44 for the last 2 years. Garlett also was a focal point alongside Betts in the Carlton forward line in 2010. Nahas wasn't he was a player who had to rely on scraps.

to top it off hes skinny and looks to have little scope for improvement size wise and has such obvious skill deficiency and lack of pace its not funny.

How do you come to the conclusion that Garlett can still improve his size but Nahas can't?

tell me oh great defender of all things mediocre who would you prefer. all you do is make excuses for mediocrity. you are not seriously going to debate performance when it comes to these two.

How about you answer the question I posed to you a couple of pages back first, when I asked you if you would still want Nahas gone if he had played 120 games for 165 goals like Betts has produced over 6 years?

39 21 is a good performance by any standard regardless of the pathetic excuses used in regards he played in a good team. so carlton are a really good team now. you keep on defending them rt no matter what.

Not defending anyone, just putting across a case to suggest that based on the circumstances Nahas hasn't performed as bad as some make out. I also posed the question why not give him that 3rd year like most players get to see if he can turn things around. As I've said in earlier posts I was not that pleased with him this year, but on reflection can understand why he struggled. If we perform better this year and Nahas still struggles then as I said I've got no doubt he'll be one of the first ones shown the door.

 

[deledio7]

It's fair enough to lament the size of Hicks. His kicking on the other hand is very, very good.

 

[Barnzy]

Size is not an issue for small forwards. As already been said by RATD, look at Garlett from Carlton. Tiny but very skillful. Very promising young player. Ballantyne, Rioli, etc. They can rectify this problem with very good smarts and skills around goals. The problem with our smalls forwards is they're either poor or average in both areas. How long since we had a good crumbing goalkicker? Hopefully Hicks can help us out here. At an early glance he looks to have better tools than Nahas, King, White, etc. He just needs to be developed now and hopefully he comes on because the others options are stop-gaps.

 

[Morro]

I think everyone is being too hasty in writing off King for this role. He had to learn his role last year, and once settled his performances were very good late in the season. He will be a permanant fixture in our forward line this season and I think he will improve on last years goal tally.

That being said, we need a real goal sneak, a player capable of the magical things, ala Browny pre broken leg. The only hope we have on our list for this role is Dmac, and that hope appears to be just a flicker.

 

[richoatthedisco]

Not asking much Morro: "Just another Nathan Brown please. Aw heck, might as well throw in a Richo while you're at it."

Agree on King, think he can do a job.

This seems to sum your purpose - not to discuss, but to argue. To argue anything and everything, in other words troll.

You may do in a smart enough way not to get a card from the mods, but you are still transparent enough as to your purpose.

Nailed him Al. Exactly what he's doing.

 

[THE_GUN]

If King or Nahas can average 2 goals a game for 2011 & beyond I would have no problem with them playing foward for the tigers

But anything under 30 goals from a small foward goal sneak is simply not good enough unless they can offer something in the midfield (Didak,Chapman,) like.

 

[santa claws]

Are they really? Nahas has averaged a goal a game for 2 season(34 from 33) just like Betts averaged a goal a game(60 from 57) for those 3 seasons.


Sorry but I never said you rated Betts, I used you saying that we'd all be going gaga if one of our forwards had kicked similar goals to what he has. I then produced figures to show that we have had a small forward put up similar numbers to what Betts did early in his career.


Never said that Betts was crap either. Considering what he has has to work with I think he has put up pretty reasonable numbers for his career, considering his first 5 seasons were at Fevs feet while last year he was pretty much the focal point alongside Garlett. As for our lot being ok. I already posted that I didn't think Nahas was that good last year but can see the reasons why a small forward would struggle given that we started 0-9.

im not even going to attempt to explain the 20 22 24 principal because i can see you will just be silly about it. suffice to say we are not talking about players reaching full potential at those ages

Who is being silly? You said the general rule was that smalls get until their 20, which when you look at it would equate to 3 seasons in the system for most. Surely regardless of age Nahas can be afforded the same 3 seasons to show whether he can make it or not.


Garlett also played for a side that has won 24 of 44 games in the last 2 years. Nahas played for a side that has won 11.5 of 44 for the last 2 years. Garlett also was a focal point alongside Betts in the Carlton forward line in 2010. Nahas wasn't he was a player who had to rely on scraps.


How do you come to the conclusion that Garlett can still improve his size but Nahas can't?

How about you answer the question I posed to you a couple of pages back first, when I asked you if you would still want Nahas gone if he had played 120 games for 165 goals like Betts has produced over 6 years?


Not defending anyone, just putting across a case to suggest that based on the circumstances Nahas hasn't performed as bad as some make out. I also posed the question why not give him that 3rd year like most players get to see if he can turn things around. As I've said in earlier posts I was not that pleased with him this year, but on reflection can understand why he struggled. If we perform better this year and Nahas still struggles then as I said I've got no doubt he'll be one of the first ones shown the door.

lol garlett kicked 39 in his second season as a small forward he was good enough to feed of their focal points. you are not serious surely when you say he was a focal point.

i cou;ld go back point by point but in all honesty cant be bothered.
your good at twisting sentences around i give you that.
as always never any mention of poor skills poor pace or lack of size na we never talk about attributes when comparing players just does not help the cause.and that in a nut shell is what its about nahas does not have the tools to kick 42 goals in a season like betts or 39 like garlett. around and around we go but at the end of the day he is not good enough.

to answer your question which was would i want nahas gone if he played 120 games and kicked 165 goals like betts has done.

long term yes. i like the geelong model or hawthorn model where the sml forwards are good mids as well. i reckon eddy will ultimately fail because of this.
in saying all that betts has just turned 24 only one yr older than nahas and his last 3 seasons have been servicable to good.. his last two for a sml has been good when you just look at goal returns. 38 and 42 goals what more could you ask.
nahas does not look remotely anywhere near that and when you throw in the most important aspect of it all his attributes which at the end of the day determine just how much he can improve and plain old common sense says no chance. yep a goal a game ordinary afl footballer with no other redeeming ability.
and ya know and im sure you did when i said ferals would go ga ga, i was talking if nahas managed to kick 42 goals in a season nice twist there rt.

 

[Football Tragic]

I'm confused by many people concerns and debate about the worth of our small forwards. King's role was first and foremost to shut down the oppositions running defenders and secondly to manufacture goals. It is the defensive forwards main role therefore to be defensive and have the pace and tackling capabilities to shadow dangerous line breakers which King did admirably as the year progressed.

The era of the 'Nathan Brown/small/mid sized leading forward' is over. Hardwick has designed a game plan, as have most clubs now, where you have 2/3 tall forwards in space and where midfielders run back into the forwardline to create opportunistic goals. Our best midfielders may 'rest' in the forwardline this season but players the stay at home small forward is all but gone.

Taylor could be a great asset in this regard as he is a wonderful skilled crumber yet, now that he is over 190cm, he would also fill the role of a tall forward too.

Players such as King, Hicks, Nahas and Nason are all fighting for the one forward defensive role or need to break into the ever growing midfield rotation. Even players such as Betts and Milne are now spending an increasingly larger percentage of time in the midfield so the times they are achanging....

FT

 

[Wallaby]

If King or Nahas can average 2 goals a game for 2011 & beyond I would have no problem with them playing foward for the tigers

But anything under 30 goals from a small foward goal sneak is simply not good enough unless they can offer something in the midfield (Didak,Chapman,) like.

Here are all the 30+ goal small forwards from 2010.

Adelaide - none
Brisbane - none
Carlton - betts - 42, Garlett - 39
Collingwood - Didak 41
Essendon - none
Freo - Ballantyne - 33
Geelong - Ablett 44, Varcoe - 31, Byrnes - 36
Hawthorn - none
Melbourne - none
North - none
Port - Ebert (does he count? I don't think so) - 30
Richmond - Bartlett, Naish, Daffy, Dick Harris, Roger Dean, John Northey.....sorry - none.
Saints - Milne 57, Schneider 39
Sydney - none
West Coast - LeCras - 63
Bulldogs - Gianciracusa - 35.

That's 12. 8 sides didn't have one. 30 goals is an excellent return from a small forward these days. Geelong have a few because they are one of the best sides and have no key forwards. LeCras and Ebert play as key forwards as much as 'crumbers'.

 

[santa claws]

If King or Nahas can average 2 goals a game for 2011 & beyond I would have no problem with them playing foward for the tigers

But anything under 30 goals from a small foward goal sneak is simply not good enough unless they can offer something in the midfield (Didak,Chapman,) like.

sheesh with our lot id be happy for a return of 20. atm we get no more than 15. the thing is none of them are part of rotations so you get nothing else. if they dont kick a goal or two you get nothing.
to top it of we dont have any medium sized players in the forward line kicking goals to alleviate the problem of the smalls kicking so few.

morton and deledio are the only two medium sized players we have who have managed to kick goals when forward yet both are needed elsewhere.
macdonald is one medium who was recruited as a genuine forward.
i still believe cotchin and morton should play significant forward roles as part of their rotations.

 

[santa claws]

Here are all the 30+ goal small forwards from 2010.

Adelaide - none
Brisbane - none
Carlton - betts - 42, Garlett - 39
Collingwood - Didak 41
Essendon - none
Freo - Ballantyne - 33
Geelong - Ablett 44, Varcoe - 31, Byrnes - 36
Hawthorn - none
Melbourne - none
North - none
Port - Ebert (does he count? I don't think so) - 30
Richmond - Bartlett, Naish, Daffy, Dick Harris, Roger Dean, John Northey.....sorry - none.
Saints - Milne 57, Schneider 39
Sydney - none
West Coast - LeCras - 63
Bulldogs - Gianciracusa - 35.

That's 12. 8 sides didn't have one. 30 goals is an excellent return from a small forward these days. Geelong have a few because they are one of the best sides and have no key forwards. LeCras and Ebert play as key forwards as much as 'crumbers'.

i know you focused on 2010 and 30 plus goals but at
adelaide they have porplyzia and the medium sized knights. knights may be a medium but he performs the small role

at brisbane they had sherman and banfield both borderline sml mediums like knights does the role.

essendon monfries alwyn davies even zaharakis who spends time in the midfield. and yep monfries plays small despite being 184cm.

hawthorn have rioli who spent most of his time in the middle and osborne who had a quite season.

melb aaron davey who doesnt alwys play forward with green who is another borderline medium who does the small role.

nm have thomas edwards

pa robbie gray and of course you add ebert did port not play any tall forwards.

syd - dennis-lane and of course they have had a regular goal kicking medium forward in okeefe to compliment their talls.

wb higgins gia they go thru the midfield just as you want it.they have a medium in hill.

where does our boys stack up against these players.

 

[tigerdan]

This thread is getting ridiculous.

Who really gives a stuff if we have a decent small forward or not? FFS Santa, give it a rest!

I don't give a shit if we have a 30 goal a year forward pocket or a 15 goal a year one. I care that we have key position stocks and good onballers.

 

[CallMeAl]

You do understand that the more goals you kick the more chance you have of winning?

 

[_RT_]

sheesh with our lot id be happy for a return of 20. atm we get no more than 15. the thing is none of them are part of rotations so you get nothing else. if they dont kick a goal or two you get nothing.

So now you're saying you were happy with Nahas kicking 21 in 09.

 

[richoatthedisco]

knights may be a medium but he performs the small role

Plays as a leading forward.

green who is another borderline medium who does the small role.

Pretty much plays full-forward.

ebert

See Knights.

Poor examples these ones.

 

[Vitriol]

i know you focused on 2010 and 30 plus goals but at
adelaide they have porplyzia and the medium sized knights. knights may be a medium but he performs the small role

at brisbane they had sherman and banfield both borderline sml mediums like knights does the role.

essendon monfries alwyn davies even zaharakis who spends time in the midfield. and yep monfries plays small despite being 184cm.

hawthorn have rioli who spent most of his time in the middle and osborne who had a quite season.

melb aaron davey who doesnt alwys play forward with green who is another borderline medium who does the small role.

nm have thomas edwards

pa robbie gray and of course you add ebert did port not play any tall forwards.

syd - dennis-lane and of course they have had a regular goal kicking medium forward in okeefe to compliment their talls.

wb higgins gia they go thru the midfield just as you want it.they have a medium in hill.

where does our boys stack up against these players.

Besides Porps, Banfield, Alwyn Davey, Rioli, Thomas, Gray and TDL none of those others could be called small forwards

Davey, Rioli, Banfield and TDL have never kicked 30 goals in a season. and Gray's best was flat on 30.

And really i expect all the smalls named by you to push on into the midfield as soon as they are capable except for Davey (not good enough) and TDL (natural forward). Goal kicking midfielders are the new small forwards.