i hope the pies

[dales]

i hope the pies have not shot themseles in the foot by delisting all these ruckmen.it may now mean we could miss out on a midfield gun at pick 10 because we now need a ruckman and they may use pick 8-10 on one,who possibly is not worth a top 10 pick.

 

[MarkT]

All these ruckmen? Fanning was no good. Cameron Cloke was arguably no good and too injured. That’s it isn’t it? We need a good young ruckman regardless of who we have delisted. Personally I’d have kept Cameron Cloke because he is a different type to Fraser and Richards but the reality is his shoulders are a problem and his ability is in question anyway. If Walker is gone he wasn’t a ruckman anyway.

 

[Snoop Dog]

Not exactly sure of the rookie rules - but would Cam CLoke have still qualified.

If so, option?

 

[EB&W Pieman]

Possibly keeping a spot vacant in case Leuenberg slips through

 

[Jabso]

I have a feeling we will draft Meyer a Willy boy in our last round pick. I'd rather him than Keating. From my recollection of Meyer when I've seen him he is not a big bulky ruckman, but he is a ruckman and could definately stand up to AFL rucking he is no skinny kid and he is solid around the ground and I think he can play KPP too.

 

[magpies42]

i hope the pies have not shot themseles in the foot by delisting all these ruckmen.it may now mean we could miss out on a midfield gun at pick 10 because we now need a ruckman and they may use pick 8-10 on one,who possibly is not worth a top 10 pick.

NO NO NO NO NO arrrrgh nightmares arrgghhhh pick pavlich not mckee!!!

ok im abit drunk but the point still stands we better be taking best available with our first 2 picks!
we still have 3 rucks to play with and they are obviously banking on redrafting one of the delisted or getting a good young ruck at either 10 or 2nd rounder (thats if leunberger doesnt drop to 8 )

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

NO NO NO NO NO arrrrgh nightmares arrgghhhh pick pavlich not mckee!!!

Not similar - We traded down, out of the range of Pavlich to GET McKee. We still had the #7 draft pick as well.

There wasn't anything majorly wrong with what we did, aside from paying slightly over the odds for McKee, but unfortunately Danny Roach turned out to be crap. In a different world, we could have held on to the pick, and Pavlich could have had his career ruined by injuries, while Roach went on to star, and we would have looked like A-Grade fools.

Even if we had have drafted Joel Corey, Luke McPharlin, Darren Glass or Robert Murphy, all of whom went in the next few picks, we probably wouldn't have had the same complaints. Sure, they're not quite as good as Pavlich, but they're still very good, and McKee was good for us for a few years - Got us into two Grand Finals.

I refuse to let the success of draft picks dictate whether or not a trade was good, because the draft is always a raffle, and moreover, it is not the same people making trades as it is drafting, so the mistakes of incompetent drafting shouldn't be blamed on the people who make the trades.

But still, it does stand to reason that we should be picking the best available players, given that we really don't have any one particular area completely covered, aside from perhaps HFF/Wingers.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

I have a feeling we will draft Meyer a Willy boy in our last round pick. I'd rather him than Keating. From my recollection of Meyer when I've seen him he is not a big bulky ruckman, but he is a ruckman and could definately stand up to AFL rucking he is no skinny kid and he is solid around the ground and I think he can play KPP too.

I mean, he's only 196cm, but then again, people are harping about the delisting of Cameron Cloke and Tex Walker, who were shorter than that, and Brent Hall and David Fanning who are useless at any height.

 

[daics cousin]

I think you guys should look at these delistings as a blessing.Who would want to keep fanning(hardly a ruckman,go back to basketball mate),cam cloke(couldve been ok but 3 shoulder recos and only played 2 senior games..see ya)walker(couldn't do anything in his prime at collingwood languished in the reserves for years,hardly someone you could count on) and i reckon richards should have been added to this list(7 years at the pies has played less than 20 games always injured his body is not up to afl standards,get rid of him)......New look ruck division......renouf/tippett,will be much better players in a few years,josh has got a lot of finnese to be abulldozing ruckman,but does everything around the ground that makes other ruckman envious,meyer( who we may recruite,is still much better than richards)Clark keating(he is worth getting even a half frit keating is better than,fanning,walker,cloke put together,)he can play and help richards till either tippet/renouf and meyer gain more experience.Ruck options solved!

 

[MarkT]

There wasn't anything majorly wrong with what we did, aside from paying slightly over the odds for McKee

WHAT!!!!!

We traded a pick that WE KNEW would get Pavlich or Haselby at worst for a ruckman we SHOULD have know was ordinary. McKee was a known quantity having been on a list already. To think Richmond would give away a young quality ruckman is silly anyway. If you are investing pick 3 you damn well have to make sure you are getting quality. This is the worst list management decision the club has made in a long time. Given how hard and painful it is to get these early pick opportunity at elite players it ranks as the sort of decision that careers should end over. When added to other it is outrageous that we have been so soft but then again that is why we have such a mediocre list after having suck fantastic draft picks over the last decade. Has any club or coach actually had better draft picks than we have under Malthouse? Yet here are with our entire future dependant upon considerably outperforming the draft averages for the next 3 or 4 years!

Let’s be perfectly clear. Someone at Collingwood judged that McKee was a quality ruckman worth downgrading pick 3 for pick 7 even ignoring any value attributable to King. Just so we are perfectly clear ion this McKee was delisted AFTER his role in 2002 and after that role being deemed insufficient for him to play any meaningful during 2003. In other words, the job he did in 2002 was deemed by 2003 to be insufficient for a club with no real ruck alternative bar an under developed ordinary tap ruckman in Fraser. In other words, McKee was a DUD.

Now this next bit is purely my opinion and you can disagree if you like but that one decision cost us the 2002 premiership, possibly any chance of making a game of 2003 and god know what else over the next decade. Not only did we pass up Pavlic we did not have a ruckman that could win his position when we needed one in 2 grand finals.

 

[daics cousin]

Spot on mark T.the decision to pass up Pavlich and get mckee did cost us definately the 2002 grand final and the 2003 grand finals.If we had pavlich in 2002 no doubt we would have won that one.Forward line of tarrant,rocca,pavlich and bucks at his best.Sad thing is 2002 we could have one if F....en Tarrant kicked straight without pavlich anyway.Had tarrant kicked straight at 3 quarter time we would have been 18 points up,even with the aker and lynch goals we would have ended up winning.2003 When rocca was reported and didn't play with having palich he could have have taken rocca's possie and history may have been different.So we all now can see that if we don't recruite smartley things can go down the drain.But if you have a clever recruiting team,and things are done correctely...PREMIERSHIPS CAN BE WON.....THAT'S THE END RESULT.

 

[Warwick]

i hope the pies have not shot themseles in the foot by delisting all these ruckmen.it may now mean we could miss out on a midfield gun at pick 10 because we now need a ruckman and they may use pick 8-10 on one,who possibly is not worth a top 10 pick.

What the hell!!

It's almost as if you are wishing you don't want a ruckmen.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

Now this next bit is purely my opinion and you can disagree if you like but that one decision cost us the 2002 premiership, possibly any chance of making a game of 2003 and god know what else over the next decade. Not only did we pass up Pavlic we did not have a ruckman that could win his position when we needed one in 2 grand finals.

That's all well and good, but you're also leaving out the fact that Danny Roach had his career ruined by injury.

If he had have come on as a good player, then HE might have been the difference between winning and losing in 2002. It sucks that he was hit with such terrible injuries, but that's the way the cards fall sometimes.

You're doing exactly what I was objecting to, and comparing Pavlich and McKee straight up, when in reality, getting pick #7 in return would have helped if not for the unfortunate fate of Danny Roach. If we had have picked Joel Corey, Luke McPharlin or Darren Glass instead, who went at #8, #10 and #11 respectively, then we would have been in a better situation from the trade.

Regardless, my point was that we didn't DRAFT McKee at all, so magpies42's comment of "pick pavlich not mckee!!!" was invalid.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Exactly Vinnie, it was a drafting blunder, not a trading blunder.

(we never should have had the chance to get Pavlich anyway - Freo were lucky to get him after passing on him with pick 1, and Richmond's blunder was worse than ours). In fact had we kept pick 3, Freo may well have chosen Pavlich with pick 1 anyway. It was a strategic decision by them to take Hasleby at 1, knowing Richmond were looking for mids. The strategy may well have changed if we kept pick 3.

 

[MarkT]

No Timmy, it was both and they are both a part of the poor list management we have had under MM. It isn’t all MM’s fault but a large part of it has to be. It was a drafting blunder because roach wasn’t good enough. You can argue all you like about injury but if he was better he would have been persisted with longer and/or been given a rookie spot somewhere else. I can actually accept these decisions though as an isolated draft decision because it is not an exact science but our problem is that we have made far too many to put it down to the odds. That’s merely half the story though.

McKee is just an example of taking duds. From Rintoul to Steinfort to Cummings to Williams to Morrison we did it far too often. McKee was a ruckman on an AFL list. Either someone saw him and judged him to be good or we punted sight unseen. Either way it was a horrendous misjudgement because it cost us a very valuable pick 3 and that is ignoring who we KNEW was available. We knew for a fact that either the highly rated Pavlich or Haselby would be left at 3 because we knew we had Fraser at 1.

I don’t really care about Richmond’s blunders. Measuring ourselves against rubbish or even averaging out our mistakes and explaining them away is far too easy and is why we are mediocre and have been for a long time.

Now if we really were to be honest with ourselves we admit we should have taken Pavlich ahead of Fraser. I like Josh as a footballer but Pavlich is better and more valuable. I can’t blame the club for jumping at Fraser given all the pre publicity but nonetheless these are the decisions that define club’s destinies.

Vinne the problem I have with what you say is simply that I could explain every single drafting and trading miss as bad luck or just one of those things. If Nixon turned out to be a player, if McGough wasn't slow and a poor kick, if Brayden Shaw had of been a gun and if Cam Cloke had of been a gun we would be all talking about how many we’d win not whether we actually ever win one. That’s the whole issue though. We have the list we have due to all the list management decisions we have made. If you don’t critically evaluate them all how do you change for the better and if you don’t aim high how do you turn around a half century of misses?

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

Vinne the problem I have with what you say is simply that I could explain every single drafting and trading miss as bad luck or just one of those things. If Nixon turned out to be a player, if McGough wasn't slow and a poor kick, if Brayden Shaw had of been a gun and if Cam Cloke had of been a gun we would be all talking about how many we’d win not whether we actually ever win one. That’s the whole issue though. We have the list we have due to all the list management decisions we have made. If you don’t critically evaluate them all how do you change for the better and if you don’t aim high how do you turn around a half century of misses?

I am not defending our drafting, or any of the players you mentioned.

However, I think you ARE underestimating how bad Roach's injury was - His hips were essentially completely stuffed. He did have skill, and was athletic for his size, but we never got a chance to see if he could do anything because he injured his hip so badly in early 2000.

And that's exactly the point - The injury was in early 2000, and he retired at the end of 2001 from the same injury - If you spend 18 months with the same injury, it's probably pretty severe. As far as I know, he never went on to play footy at VFL or any other serious level, which again confirms that the injury must have been pretty bad.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

If we had kept pick 3 Fremantle would most likely have taken Pavlich with pick 1, and we would have been left with Haselby. Haselby is not much better than Shane O'Bree and would not have added greatly to our list of midfield plodders. SO in all likelihood we never would have gotten Pavlich, even if we kept 3. Haselby might have been handy but he was a style of player we already had plenty of.

It was a drafting blunder, pure and simple. We had drafted Joel Corey instead of Danny Roach we would not be having this conversation.

PS Steinfort Morrison McGough and Cummings have nothing to do with the point I was making. McKee was a handy pickup at the time and did ok as a backup, lack of any real talent and Legionairres disease notwithstanding.

 

[FIGJAM]

I really ********en wish I didn't open this thread!

 

[Palmer Stoat]

I am not defending our drafting, or any of the players you mentioned.

However, I think you ARE underestimating how bad Roach's injury was - His hips were essentially completely stuffed. He did have skill, and was athletic for his size, but we never got a chance to see if he could do anything because he injured his hip so badly in early 2000.

And that's exactly the point - The injury was in early 2000, and he retired at the end of 2001 from the same injury - If you spend 18 months with the same injury, it's probably pretty severe. As far as I know, he never went on to play footy at VFL or any other serious level, which again confirms that the injury must have been pretty bad.

I think Roach has played a bit of ammo football -- which probably doesn't qualify as 'serious'. He was cruelled by the hip injury. He never had a chance to show what he could do. Now, maybe he wouldn't have made it anyway. But no one will ever know. Most Collingwood supporters tend to bag Judkins for the Roach pick, but I don't think it's as clearcut as it's made out to be -- as you suggest, Vinnie.

 

[FIGJAM]

I saw Roach do some very classy things in the ressies.

Took a genuine screamer one day and had the ball on a string with quality finishing. Soft outsider, but had some good qualities.

Wasn't the Uber Dud most will say, but is an unfortunate story relative to what we gave up.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

I think Roach has played a bit of ammo football -- which probably doesn't qualify as 'serious'. He was cruelled by the hip injury. He never had a chance to show what he could do. Now, maybe he wouldn't have made it anyway. But no one will ever know. Most Collingwood supporters tend to bag Judkins for the Roach pick, but I don't think it's as clearcut as it's made out to be -- as you suggest, Vinnie.

The only way to compare it is to say imagine if Scott Pendlebury didn't play a game last year because of his glandular fever, and actually developed chronic fatigue from it, and never ended up playing a senior game - People would probably bag the selection, even though it was totally reasonable at the time.

 

[footy_paul]

I mean, he's only 196cm, but then again, people are harping about the delisting of Cameron Cloke and Tex Walker, who were shorter than that, and Brent Hall and David Fanning who are useless at any height.

cain ackland is only 196 and he is getting a gig at carlton, so i reckon meyer could do alright as long as his vertical leap is above average

 

[MarkT]

I bag MM for allowing the pick downgrade. What is clear cut is that if you are going to swap 3 for 7 you had better get a gun and we god a dud that had already been in circulation and should have been a far better known quantity than any player in the draft. What is clear cut is that if you trade 3 for 7 you are accountable for the outcome. Take the risk – wear the result. This is my real issue with Collingwood. No one is ever accountable for the results. Certainly not MM in his time at the club.

As for the Pavlich/Haselby thing, Haselby is a good midfielder and will be better when his body is right but assuming Freo would have taken Pavlich had we kept 3 is pure speculation and as like to be wrong as right. If Richmond convinced Freo they wanted a mid then surely with knowing we would take Josh at 1 we could have made the exact same noises. There was also speculation at the time that Freo went with Haselby because he was from WA and less risk.

All we know for sure is we traded 3 and Pavlich was available at 3.

 

[Dj Chriss]

All we know for sure is we traded 3 and Pavlich was available at 3.

Right on the money buddy, you never give up 1 of the first 3 picks, look at us in 2000, and freo in 2001

 

[Nardz]

must we still talk about the whole roach thing.. i am so over reading about it its not funny..