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i reckon we need more height

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J

jaitachi

Team Captain
Aug 19, 2009
437
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AFL Club
Hawthorn
hey guys i was going thru the lists of AFL teams and ive noticed our list is a bit short compared to others.. do you guys think we need a few more 195+ or so defenders maybe?

our list looks worse when you have people like birchall who is 193 cm but cant play tall and also 2 of our key defenders are 189 cm in Gibson and Stratton...

it just seems to me that our list need a few more taller players for the overall balance of our team list

what do you guys think? am i overestimating having more tall players in our list or do u think i have a point in this?
 
I think we definately need another developing tall at minimum, particularly if Dowler is going and Thorp not really replaced. Shoenemaker, Lisle, Milne and potentially Grimely, with Shoenemaker and Lisle the only ones close to pushing into the seniors. I hope these 2 are getting games next year, and particularly Shoenemakers development could have a huge effect on our team. Whether we chase a quick fix from elsewhere or back in their development and draft a kid I'm not sure, maybe both, I agree we need to add some height.
 
jaitachi said:
hey guys i was going thru the lists of AFL teams and ive noticed our list is a bit short compared to others.. do you guys think we need a few more 195+ or so defenders maybe?

our list looks worse when you have people like birchall who is 193 cm but cant play tall and also 2 of our key defenders are 189 cm in Gibson and Stratton...

it just seems to me that our list need a few more taller players for the overall balance of our team list

what do you guys think? am i overestimating having more tall players in our list or do u think i have a point in this?
Click to expand...

Agree - the recruiting and coaching staff have identified this for a long time. This is where the failure of Thorp and Dowler is really hurting the Hawks.
 

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Adelaide Hawk said:
How many 195+ defenders do Collingwood and Geelong have?
Click to expand...

Spot on mate I don't think we need a big defender or another. We are now getting to see the benefit if gibbo and shoey is developing well at box hill as the big rebounding half back.

We just need to get our stricture right.

What I think we need is a speedy half back flanker which we don't have at the moment
 
Adelaide Hawk said:
How many 195+ defenders do Collingwood and Geelong have?
Click to expand...

Not 195+ but, Collingwood Tall Defenders:
Leigh Brown* 194cm
Nathan Brown 195cm
Jack Carter (R) - 194cm
Tyson Goldsack - 193cm
Nick Maxwell - 193cm
Presti - 194cm
Scott Reed (R) - 192 cm
Ben Reid - 195 cm

Maxwell/Goldsack a bit like Birchall, tall without playing tall well.

Geelong:
Harry Taylor - 193 cm
Matt Scarlett - 192 cm
Andrew Mackie - 192 cm
Tom Lonegen - 197 cm
Marcus Drum - 191 cm
Mitch Brown - 195 cm

Mackie/Drum like Birchall again.

Hawthorn:
Birchall - 193 cm
Gilham - 192 cm
Lisle - 196 cm
Milne - 193 cm
Morton* - 191 cm
Shoenemaker 193 cm
 
Rioli magic said:
I think we definately need another developing tall at minimum, particularly if Dowler is going and Thorp not really replaced. Shoenemaker, Lisle, Milne and potentially Grimely, with Shoenemaker and Lisle the only ones close to pushing into the seniors. I hope these 2 are getting games next year, and particularly Shoenemakers development could have a huge effect on our team. Whether we chase a quick fix from elsewhere or back in their development and draft a kid I'm not sure, maybe both, I agree we need to add some height.
Click to expand...

Spot on Rioli-Magic: My thoughts exactly.

They may not all be 195+ but with Schoey, possibly Lisle, Milne & in 2 yrs Grimley; we have the future for KPD - we just lack the 'now'.

Realistically, based on what ordinary forward lines (Port, Adelaide, Sydney) with talls have done to our defense, we need to get a 'ready made' for next year. This may well be Schoey, I am not sure, but we can't go into another season with our hopes rested on Schoey's shoulders, only to realise we are pushing the kid too hard. Not fair on him & won't work for the team.

IMO, whether we chase a 'ready made' gorilla defender depends a bit on the compensation we get for Brown, should he go. If we get a 3rd / 4th for him then that is useless & we will likely draft youth for the future with our early picks. If we get good compensation then that may allow us to draft + trade...
 
I am starting to think we dont have enough quality small defenders, the last 6 weeks or so , small forwards have done more damage to us- against geelong, sneider from st kilda, against sydney etc.
the question is - is it because we tend to have 2 or 3 of our mid sized defenders go for the spoil against the one big forward because they are outmuscled one on one, thus leaving us exposed on the ground when the ball crumbs or is it because we dont have smart small defenders who can crumb the packs?- Whitecross , Ladson and guerra is hardly imposing in stopping a gun small forward.
Murphy and Brown are our best 2 stoppers of smaller type players but dont play that roll.
 
When tearing us apart, small forwards always seem to have lost their man (our defender) & take unpressured shots; so you may be onto something Max.

I think we need 1 big defender, that actually plays big. Birch & Gilham just don't play to their height. As I posted above, we will have this down the track, we just don't yet.

Grimley & Milne are exciting for what they could be. From what I read Grimley could be a D. Fletcher type running Full Back & Milne a tall running HBF - maybe in the mould of the dockers M. Johnson (without the drug issues...).

Is Shiels an option as a small(ish) defender? Pretty sure I read someone suggest that about a week ago.
 
I don't think talls are our biggest problem at the moment. I would think that not having enough outside mids is killing us. 189 is tall enough to make a KPP, that's pretty much all Croad was. players in our starting 18 who play on the KPF are Gilham, Stratton and Gibson, with Boots to come in.
So 3 out of our back 6 are KPP then Murph, Brown Birch, and Goo take the smalls.
We miss Young too much when he is out because Bateman is now a tagger whoo provides little run the other way, and Rioli who doesn't get enough of the ball on a regular basis.
Bring in some speed around the ground, dry up the forward 50 entries and get the forwards woking TOGETHER and we will be back in 2008.
 
Rioli magic said:
Not 195+ but, Collingwood Tall Defenders:
Leigh Brown* 194cm
Nathan Brown 195cm
Jack Carter (R) - 194cm
Tyson Goldsack - 193cm
Nick Maxwell - 193cm
Presti - 194cm
Scott Reed (R) - 192 cm
Ben Reid - 195 cm

Maxwell/Goldsack a bit like Birchall, tall without playing tall well.

Geelong:
Harry Taylor - 193 cm
Matt Scarlett - 192 cm
Andrew Mackie - 192 cm
Tom Lonegen - 197 cm
Marcus Drum - 191 cm
Mitch Brown - 195 cm

Mackie/Drum like Birchall again.

Hawthorn:
Birchall - 193 cm
Gilham - 192 cm
Lisle - 196 cm
Milne - 193 cm
Morton* - 191 cm
Shoenemaker 193 cm
Click to expand...

I agree we need another Quality tall defender, remove Birchall from the list as he's not a tall defender, he's tall, and he plays in defence, but not a tall defender.
Don't agree with bolded as they both play tall reasonably well.

Where our problem lies is that our tall defenders, Gilham and Gibbo are more suited to the second/third tall options, we need a Croad type who can play as the No. 1 defender, it's not about their height, it's about their strength(physical and style) and speed, Croad was what? 190cm, but his height was not an issue.

Balance is the most important issue

Pies have 2 FB's - Presti and Brown
and two good second/third tall options - Maxwell and Goldsack
with: Reid @ CHB and Harry as a rebounder.

Cats similarly have:
2/3 x FB in Scarlett, Taylor and Lonegen
Mackie a good second/third tall option.

IMO we have
Gilham and Gibbo - two very good second/third tall options playing FB. Being protected by our game plan.
Schoey - A future quality CHB (I hope)
 
Some of the points ive read are spot on!

We have some great looking defenders in the reserves playing some good footy Milne, Schoenmakers and Grimley but only 1 is ready to play and thats Schoenmakers and even he is 1 year off from breaking out that's why we should chase a defender like Warnock would only cost us like a 2nd round pick with maybe a few players thrown in Morton, Dowler.


I think Schoenmakers will become one great player in the future he just needs to play in the VFL right now, remember he is only 19 and needs roughly 1 year or two to become confident with the ball in hand, playing him in the VFL for a few years has worked well for Ben Reid who is now playing good in the seniors this system should be used for Schoey.
 

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I hate these threads. They are worse than the 'drop TM threads'.

I'll put a couple of statements up and if you disagree with them then feel free to keep going. If you agree well maybe we can stop posting these.

1. There are more normal sized people than tall people in the world

2. There are more normal sized footballers than tall footballers in the world

3. There are more tall footballers who want to play forward and kick goals than there are tall footballers who want to defend

4. There are more tall footballer players who want to defend but aren't up to AFL standard than there are tall footballers who want to defend that are up to AFL standard

5. There are more tall players who want to defend and are up to AFL standard that are already listed with clubs other than Hawthorn than there are tall football players who want to defend, are up to AFL standard and aren't listed with clubs other than Hawthorn

6. The number of tall football players who want to defend, are up to AFL standard and aren't listed with clubs other than Hawthorn is less than 20ish each year.

7. Every club wants more tall football players who want to defend, are up to AFL standard and aren't listed with clubs other than thier own.

TLDR: Tall Defenders don't grow on trees, saying we need more of them is like me saying I need more money. Yes I need more money but its not an easy process to get it (unless I rob a bank or your football club is the Gold Coast).

Please try to grasp reality
 
melb_will said:
I hate these threads. They are worse than the 'drop TM threads'.

I'll put a couple of statements up and if you disagree with them then feel free to keep going. If you agree well maybe we can stop posting these.

1. There are more normal sized people than tall people in the world

2. There are more normal sized footballers than tall footballers in the world

3. There are more tall footballers who want to play forward and kick goals than there are tall footballers who want to defend

4. There are more tall footballer players who want to defend but aren't up to AFL standard than there are tall footballers who want to defend that are up to AFL standard

5. There are more tall players who want to defend and are up to AFL standard that are already listed with clubs other than Hawthorn than there are tall football players who want to defend, are up to AFL standard and aren't listed with clubs other than Hawthorn

6. The number of tall football players who want to defend, are up to AFL standard and aren't listed with clubs other than Hawthorn is less than 20ish each year.

7. Every club wants more tall football players who want to defend, are up to AFL standard and aren't listed with clubs other than thier own.

TLDR: Tall Defenders don't grow on trees, saying we need more of them is like me saying I need more money. Yes I need more money but its not an easy process to get it (unless I rob a bank or your football club is the Gold Coast).

Please try to grasp reality
Click to expand...

Spot on.

1). Birchall is made of wood but can't play tall.
2). Ladson weighs the same as a duck and likes to swim around the pond by himself.
3). They must therefore be witches.
4). Therefore, our backline is cursed.

Burn them!
 
I agree with op we do need height and pace down back. I reckon our guys work realy well as a unit but when we play teams with 199-200 key forwards we do struggle. The saints have a kid who has been there for 2 years on the rookie list, and may be upgraded at years end but may be let go he is both quick and tall. I wont name him because I will let you figure it out. He can play ruck as well and has a huge leap.
 
hawks2rule said:
I agree with op we do need height and pace down back. I reckon our guys work realy well as a unit but when we play teams with 199-200 key forwards we do struggle. The saints have a kid who has been there for 2 years on the rookie list, and may be upgraded at years end but may be let go he is both quick and tall. I wont name him because I will let you figure it out. He can play ruck as well and has a huge leap.
Click to expand...
is his name rhys stanley?
 

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I didnt mean we needed 195+ cm KPD.. Just a tall enough one that can play on the tallest of forwards. Scarlett for example 192cm? plays way better for his height then Stephen Gilham who is the same height. Croad was a gorilla 190cm but dont forget he also had a massive leap which helps a lot in spoiling and the like.
I just think getting a KPD around 195 give a few cm would really help balance the team height (maybe even getting 2)

Also how much faster should the team be. I admit we have quite a few plodders in our midfield with no speed (Mitchell, Hodge, Sewell, Lewis, ellis?)
I think we might be playing 1 extra inside midfielder too many.... maybe 3 max in a team where the sport is getting faster and faster and people are relying on speed a lot more these days..

We are considered a slow team yet we have the likes of Burgoyne, Young, Rioli, Bateman, Birchall(is he fast?), Hooper, Franklin, Savage?, and so on. How many more speedsters do we need, it seems like these days we need half the team to b speedsters, not sure how many carlton and essendon have but looks like half their team have high end speed to burn but only 1-2 inside midfielders. So how many more speedsters do we need to match up against these fast teams? another 2-3 on the wing? 1 in the midfield? I think maybe 1 or max 2 more sprinters on the outside midfield for the insiders to feed to them and we also have a specialist inside and outside midfielders in burgoyne who i hope shows off this ability for the rest of his career down at hawthorn. i think our midfield is basically set, maybe we need a couple more to push for selection to force our current players to stay on their toes and play as if theyll be dropped if they play badly (works well for collingwood).


Also i have a query about hodge and sewell as well i guess... How fast is hodge.. is he like turtle slow or at least average or what.. i cant tell how fast he is.. he seems to break the lines sometimes that shows a bit of speed and other times seems to b a bit of a plodder.. and yeh how fast is sewell? im guesing hes faster then hodge and mitchell and lewis? damn i might as well how fast is lewis.. is he a plodder or is he average at least..


Yeh sorry for the long winded discussion guys im just curious how our team is and how fast and slow and all that stuff that our team players are.. very curious and u guys seem to know a lot more then me so who better to ask hehe
 
It is no coincidence that when Clinton Young is not there, neither is the speed. He generally doesn't muck about with the ball either. He will receive, run and kick long and accurately.

It was my hope that Burgoyne would provide this same run, carry and kick on the opposing flank... which he probably will with a full pre-season under his belt.

With both Hooper and Rioli in the team, I would suggest that Rioli should become a permanent fixture in the midfield, with Hooper crumbing around Buddy and Roughy.

In short, I think we have lacked structure through understanding the new game plan, injury, suspension and fitness, and with the finals approaching everything appears to be falling into place at the right time!

:)
 
melb_will said:
I hate these threads. They are worse than the 'drop TM threads'.

I'll put a couple of statements up and if you disagree with them then feel free to keep going. If you agree well maybe we can stop posting these.

1. There are more normal sized people than tall people in the world

2. There are more normal sized footballers than tall footballers in the world

3. There are more tall footballers who want to play forward and kick goals than there are tall footballers who want to defend

4. There are more tall footballer players who want to defend but aren't up to AFL standard than there are tall footballers who want to defend that are up to AFL standard



5. There are more tall players who want to defend and are up to AFL standard that are already listed with clubs other than Hawthorn than there are tall football players who want to defend, are up to AFL standard and aren't listed with clubs other than Hawthorn

6. The number of tall football players who want to defend, are up to AFL standard and aren't listed with clubs other than Hawthorn is less than 20ish each year.

7. Every club wants more tall football players who want to defend, are up to AFL standard and aren't listed with clubs other than thier own.

TLDR: Tall Defenders don't grow on trees, saying we need more of them is like me saying I need more money. Yes I need more money but its not an easy process to get it (unless I rob a bank or your football club is the Gold Coast).
Please try to grasp reality
Click to expand...

What a stupid post. Fact is that TAC cup clubs and state level clubs are instructed by the AFL to recruit and develop as many kids 188cm+ as possible. This is in fact providing AFL clubs an array of junior KP talent to select from, now you can ramble on as much as you like but the truth is our club has drafted and traded poorely for the last 4-5 years.

We are either going drafting spuds and have been severely unlucky and/or our development of youngsters has waned from past years. The absolute shitful post about tall defenders not really being available is rubbish, any kid 6ft3+ wants to play AFL and it's our clubs responsibility to draft and develop and or trade for these types! All the other clubs can do it, surely Hawthorn can.
 
the SHoe is a gun. Next year he will be knocking heads and taking numbers in the firsts.
No issue.
 

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i reckon we need more height

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