- Feb 2, 2009
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Just to clear the incorrect disposal rule up for people
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Moved Thread Incorrect Disposal Interpretation
- Thread starter lordbob
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I'm no senior coach, so grain of salt and all that.
Need to encourage getting the ball, not tackling.
Attacking football requires having the ball, unless you're wedded to a defensive / counter attacking game.
The reward for tackling should be that you've halted the opposition momentum, and created a potential turnover, not an automatic free kick.
The number of illegal tackles / off the ball scragging and holding / "anything goes" tackles in packs / tacklers holding the ball in to get a free kick / etc is bad enough as it is. Umpire that better and watch how much more attacking the game is.
Unpopular opinion I'm sure.
Need to encourage getting the ball, not tackling.
Attacking football requires having the ball, unless you're wedded to a defensive / counter attacking game.
The reward for tackling should be that you've halted the opposition momentum, and created a potential turnover, not an automatic free kick.
The number of illegal tackles / off the ball scragging and holding / "anything goes" tackles in packs / tacklers holding the ball in to get a free kick / etc is bad enough as it is. Umpire that better and watch how much more attacking the game is.
Unpopular opinion I'm sure.
Jack Gun Cyril Stun
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Just to clear the incorrect disposal rule up for people
And there’s your problem and we wonder why the game ha turned into a rolling scrum.
“genuine attempt”....lol. That’s why players can throw it, drop it, fumble it and even hug it to their own chest and handball it repeatedly and the umpire calls play on or a ball up.
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hawkman
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Let's not pretend coaches aren't looking after their own interests even with the suggestions they are making.
Clarkson suggesting reward the tackler after his team played a high pressure game. Scott suggesting reduced numbers after his team spent the game chipping the ball around trying to find space.
Coaches should generally be the last one that we listen to about rule changes as most of the time it will be out of self interest
Clarkson suggesting reward the tackler after his team played a high pressure game. Scott suggesting reduced numbers after his team spent the game chipping the ball around trying to find space.
Coaches should generally be the last one that we listen to about rule changes as most of the time it will be out of self interest
My interpretation of what Clarkson was saying is that it's the illegal disposal that is the problem.Which is exactly what Clarko is saying, basically stop giving the ball carrier so much leeway on prior opportunity and the problem goes away is what Clarko is saying (because knocking the ball out after you have prior will be HTB). He has been saying this for 5 years now. The rules committee should just let Clarko decide the interpretations, he was right 5 years ago when he said it, and he was right again tonight. What could possibly go wrong?
There's absolutely ZERO DOUBT that the AFL instruct umpires to allow incorrect disposal as they believe it keeps the ball moving. He literally stated that I think.
And he's right.
His point was that the opposite is actually occurring. Because the umpires allow a player to drop the ball cold, or flick pass it, you're actually encouraging a swarm of players.
For the odd one or two where the
I think he used the seagulls analogy.
What he's saying is that if you ping incorrect disposal, the pack clears instantly.
The effect of this of course will be that players will try harder to keep the ball in. So the umpires will have to be red hot on players not making genuine attempts to dispose of the ball - whilst also making sure that when they do dispose of it, it's done legally.
I think he's spot on. And there's no rullechange required.
Play on....
Ironically if you were awarded the free you wouldn't have kicked a goal.
I don't agree with Clarko that the game would become more high scoring with more free kicks awarded. Free kicks let teams set up behind the ball and shut down slick ball movement. You'd see more long kicks to contests -> boundary throw ins.
Old umpiring truism, only good umpires get HTB right - plenty of trash about at the moment. I suspect it is in part caused by unclear direction by the AFL based on what looks good on TV and avoids media criticism. Its not working if that is the case.
I don't know why you're using some screenshot from 8 years ago when you could post the full set of holding the ball lawsJust to clear the incorrect disposal rule up for people
the way to think of it is: if a player hasn't had prior opportunity, they will only be pinned for incorrect disposal if they intentionally illegally dispose of the ball (ie drop it). if they try to legitimately dispose of the ball, but fail, it is still play on. if they have had a prior opportunity, it has to be a successful legit disposal
from the 2019 laws of the game: https://resources.afl.com.au/afl/do...99ff625c/2019-Laws-of-Australian-Football.pdf
17.6 HOLDING THE BALL
17.6.1 Spirit and Intention
The Player who has Possession of the Football will be provided an opportunity to dispose of the football before rewarding an opponent for a Legal Tackle.
17.6.2 Free Kicks - Holding the Ball: Prior Opportunity
(a) Where a Player in Possession of the Football has had Prior Opportunity, a Free Kick shall be awarded if that Player does not Correctly Dispose of the football immediately when they are Legally Tackled.
(b) Where a Player in Possession of the Football has not had Prior Opportunity, the field Umpire shall throw up the football when a Player, in the act of applying a Legal Tackle, holds the football to the body of the Player being tackled or the football is otherwise pinned to the ground.
17.6.3 Free Kicks - Holding the Ball: Incorrect Disposal
Where a Player in Possession of the Football has not had Prior Opportunity, a Free Kick shall be awarded if that Player elects to Incorrectly Dispose of the football when Legally Tackled.
For the avoidance of doubt, a Player does not elect to Incorrectly Dispose of the football when:
(a) the Player genuinely attempts to Correctly Dispose of the football;
(b) the Legal Tackle causes the football to be dislodged from the Player’s possession.
17.6.4 Free Kicks - Holding the Ball: No Genuine Attempt
Where a Player is in Possession of the Football and is able but does not genuinely attempt to Correctly Dispose of the football when Legally Tackled, a Free Kick shall be awarded.
17.6.5 Free Kicks - Holding the Ball: Diving on Top of the Football
A Free Kick shall be awarded against a Player who dives on top of or drags the football underneath their body and fails to immediately knock clear or Correctly Dispose of the football when Legally Tackled
The reason incorrect disposal is so prevalent is because of the “must make genuine attempt” interpretation that came in about 8 years ago. The AFL did this to try to reduce the number of ball ups, because they were concerned about the length of quarters. Ever since then the game has been atrocious. Players are forced to drop the ball or get a “half handball”, because if they don’t, they get pinned. And as long as they “knock it out”, all is well, so that’s what they do. This leads immediately to the god-awful repeat scrimmages and the massive fumbling mess of 28 players or so - and *more* ball ups. As long as they face away from the umpire, they just drop or put the ball on the ground, ideally in the vague direction of a teammate. And rinse and repeat.
The solution (which is really just going back to the way it was), is to be *less* harsh on prior opportunity, but much *more* harsh on incorrect disposal.
Go back to 2009 and watch a game. Players have just a slightly longer time to dispose the ball. But if they then get tackled, even if the ball spills loose, it’s ball. Players aren’t afraid to take possession - because they know they have a second to get rid of it. And they aren’t desperate to just drop it on the ground if they get tackled, because they know they won’t get pinned for “not making a genuine attempt”. But if they get tackled after they’ve had real prior, even if the ball spills loose, or if they drop it, there’s no ambiguity. They’re gone.
That’s the opposite of what we have now - where players are pinned even if they’ve have very little time, and let go if they’ve loads of time, so long as they knock the ball loose.
So we find ourselves in the era of throwing and flooding and those awful end of match tactics to get “repeat stoppages” by continually fumbling the ball around the boundary line, but never letting it get to the outside. This has all been compounded by the 16 minute quarters keeping players relatively fresh. It has highlighted the other main problem - that the players have too much capacity to cover the ground. The obvious solution - And Leigh Matthews has been into this for ages - is to reduce, not only the interchange, but the number of players on the field. 16 a side, no interchange, 2 subs. This represents a massive reset back to what the game used to look like before the era of ice-hockey rotations.
For those arguing to *leave the game alone*... you’re arguing for the continuance of the status quo. Yes the AFL has stuffed up the game so much, and we can’t trust them to fix it. They’ve deliberately tried to limit scoring to artificially create closer games, they’ve created more congestion, and they’ve diluted the talent pool. Either we leave it in this ruined state, or we get behind the greats of the game who finally want an end to this and want it to look the way it is supposed to look.
Of course, none of this will happen. The AFL will pay more tiggy-touchwood frees and be harsher on blokes with no opportunity to dispose of it. And they’ll say “look we’re paying more free kicks to open the game up like you said.”
The solution (which is really just going back to the way it was), is to be *less* harsh on prior opportunity, but much *more* harsh on incorrect disposal.
Go back to 2009 and watch a game. Players have just a slightly longer time to dispose the ball. But if they then get tackled, even if the ball spills loose, it’s ball. Players aren’t afraid to take possession - because they know they have a second to get rid of it. And they aren’t desperate to just drop it on the ground if they get tackled, because they know they won’t get pinned for “not making a genuine attempt”. But if they get tackled after they’ve had real prior, even if the ball spills loose, or if they drop it, there’s no ambiguity. They’re gone.
That’s the opposite of what we have now - where players are pinned even if they’ve have very little time, and let go if they’ve loads of time, so long as they knock the ball loose.
So we find ourselves in the era of throwing and flooding and those awful end of match tactics to get “repeat stoppages” by continually fumbling the ball around the boundary line, but never letting it get to the outside. This has all been compounded by the 16 minute quarters keeping players relatively fresh. It has highlighted the other main problem - that the players have too much capacity to cover the ground. The obvious solution - And Leigh Matthews has been into this for ages - is to reduce, not only the interchange, but the number of players on the field. 16 a side, no interchange, 2 subs. This represents a massive reset back to what the game used to look like before the era of ice-hockey rotations.
For those arguing to *leave the game alone*... you’re arguing for the continuance of the status quo. Yes the AFL has stuffed up the game so much, and we can’t trust them to fix it. They’ve deliberately tried to limit scoring to artificially create closer games, they’ve created more congestion, and they’ve diluted the talent pool. Either we leave it in this ruined state, or we get behind the greats of the game who finally want an end to this and want it to look the way it is supposed to look.
Of course, none of this will happen. The AFL will pay more tiggy-touchwood frees and be harsher on blokes with no opportunity to dispose of it. And they’ll say “look we’re paying more free kicks to open the game up like you said.”
Honestly the incorrect disposal/holding the ball rule is such a f*king dogs breakfast at the moment.
1- DROPPING THE BALL IN THE TACKLE. Every single tackle nowadays results in the player dropping the ball (cause they're scared they'll be pinged for holding the ball). THIS IS ILLEGAL F*KING DISPOSAL. Not sure why these crackhead umpires have just completely stopped officiating the game how it should be.
2- THROWING THE BALL. I can't tell you how rampant throwing has become in our game. It's gotten really really really bad now. Every club does it. Every player does it. It has become so normalized that now when I see a player throw the ball out and it's play on, I don't even get surprised.
3 - PRIOR OPPORTUNITY HAS GONE TOO FAR. Its gone too far. It feels like you can pick the ball up, look around, have a bounce, go for the fend off and get tackled and you still don't have "prior opportunity" anymore. Way too much lenience given to players with the ball nowadays, if they take more than a couple steps/take more than 2 seconds to get rid of it ping them. Simple.
1- DROPPING THE BALL IN THE TACKLE. Every single tackle nowadays results in the player dropping the ball (cause they're scared they'll be pinged for holding the ball). THIS IS ILLEGAL F*KING DISPOSAL. Not sure why these crackhead umpires have just completely stopped officiating the game how it should be.
2- THROWING THE BALL. I can't tell you how rampant throwing has become in our game. It's gotten really really really bad now. Every club does it. Every player does it. It has become so normalized that now when I see a player throw the ball out and it's play on, I don't even get surprised.
3 - PRIOR OPPORTUNITY HAS GONE TOO FAR. Its gone too far. It feels like you can pick the ball up, look around, have a bounce, go for the fend off and get tackled and you still don't have "prior opportunity" anymore. Way too much lenience given to players with the ball nowadays, if they take more than a couple steps/take more than 2 seconds to get rid of it ping them. Simple.
- Feb 2, 2009
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I think we all know the rule, but believe the interpretation is the same as it was in 2012.
I posted it because it was the simplified version of what you posted.
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The adjudication of holding the ball has been one of my biggest gripes following footy in the last five years. As the game has been slowed down by the coaches and a defence-first mantra employed by most clubs, the league have tried to tip the balance back by adjusting the rules to 'keep the ball moving' (how many times have we heard that spurious garbage regurgitated by those in the media) and all it has done is see the classic interpretation of holding the ball go by the wayside.
In my opinion, it's against everything we are taught growing up that a bloke that makes a genuine attempt to win a ground ball and is then beset upon by 2-3 opponents, gets pinged because he "dived on it" and yet players can be tackled in general play, not dispose of the ball correctly - drop it, slap it on etc. - but because they didn't have prior or the game keeps moving, it's all fine, "play on". To me, umpires should be calling ball-ups much quicker when it's clear that a player has had no prior and is getting flanked by multiple opponents. Further, get rid of the ruck nomination and throw it up straight away, if two players from the same team go up in the ruck then penalise them. Then, in general play, if a player is tackled and drops the ball, pay a free kick. In essence, I'm saying we should swap what we are penalising when it comes to HTB. In saying that, as I type this, I understand that this change back will probably have a net-negative impact on the play moving quickly, which is apparently what the game needs. But I think the problem of boring and defensive football is a much bigger conundrum that requires more rigorous solutions. Completely disregarding the real rules surrounding holding the ball, in an effort to keep the game moving, has had, at best, a superficial impact on the spectacle, and left fans and supporters of the traditional footy rules confused and annoyed.
In my opinion, it's against everything we are taught growing up that a bloke that makes a genuine attempt to win a ground ball and is then beset upon by 2-3 opponents, gets pinged because he "dived on it" and yet players can be tackled in general play, not dispose of the ball correctly - drop it, slap it on etc. - but because they didn't have prior or the game keeps moving, it's all fine, "play on". To me, umpires should be calling ball-ups much quicker when it's clear that a player has had no prior and is getting flanked by multiple opponents. Further, get rid of the ruck nomination and throw it up straight away, if two players from the same team go up in the ruck then penalise them. Then, in general play, if a player is tackled and drops the ball, pay a free kick. In essence, I'm saying we should swap what we are penalising when it comes to HTB. In saying that, as I type this, I understand that this change back will probably have a net-negative impact on the play moving quickly, which is apparently what the game needs. But I think the problem of boring and defensive football is a much bigger conundrum that requires more rigorous solutions. Completely disregarding the real rules surrounding holding the ball, in an effort to keep the game moving, has had, at best, a superficial impact on the spectacle, and left fans and supporters of the traditional footy rules confused and annoyed.
so long as you drop the ball out - prior opportunity doesn’t exist. You can have 3 bounces.
But then watch a player at the bottom of a pack who has absolutely no opportunity to get rid of it. He will be holding the ball without any prior - because he “didn’t make a genuine attempt.”
prior opportunity doesnt exist anymore - only “genuine attempt”.
The recent interpretation, and it came directly from AFL house's cancerous "flow of the game approach" is that if the ball is "knocked out" in the tackle it's not incrrect disposal. This has led to players dropping the ball at will and the uMNpire's doing nothing.
Officiate the game properly AFL and fan's will enjoy it.
If there isn't a handball, there isn't a kick, or the ball isn'tphysiclaly ripped away by a tackled, and there was prior possession, then it's holding the ball - simple.
ITCHY EYEBALLS
I see you watching me watching you
Just allow only one player to tackle the ball carrier.
Immediately stops the pile ups of 3 to 4 players on top of each other.
Gives the ball carrier a proper chance to dispose of the ball correctly. If he does, play on, if not rewards the tackler.
Opens up the flow of the game immediately.
IT IS SO SIMPLE!
Does my head in that no one can see this.
Said that exact same thing many times, couldn’t agree more.
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Do you mean only one tackler when the player is on the ground and another 2 players jump on top? If so I agree with you. Can’t have one tackler when a player is being tackled while running and he is trying to spin out of the tackle and other players come in to also tackle him.
Snarls Barkley
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Yes it’s ridiculous. Been this way for a number of years and is trending in the wrong direction. Games going to get more congested and ugly when you’re not paying obvious free kicks which would get the play moving again.
11kgm
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think it's the ex tigers or geelong bloke hocking
Personally? He calls the shots, is he active in reviewing interpretations.
11kgm
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i think pretty high up
