Society & Culture Irony

[HarryTiger]

This is ironic. I started off by stating that irony is not easily defined but after a rethink decided to just grab the dictionary definition from dictionary.com. Well guess what, I don't think they really define it properly.

1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had to work all weekend.

I don't think that's right. They present a total of 8 but none seem to really nail it.

(actually this might not be ironic, read on)

But anyhoo, my interest in irony started with me visiting the Darwin Awards site tonight to see if they have the incident of the guy in Brunswick voluntarily walking under a moving truck and getting killed (that part wasn't intended) listed and yes they do, multiple people have submitted it.

Further to that I watched that doco about science tonight on SBS and they covered evolutionary biology which Charles Darwin of course was a big part of. With Darwin and evolutionary biology firmly implanted in my brain I set out schooling myself up over at wikipedia on those subjects.

Now for the irony.

Charles Darwin, father of the theory of evolution and natural selection, married, his, first cousin.

Are we agreed that is ironic? And it's not the opposite of anything we would expect, stupid free dictionaries.

Do you have any good examples of irony?

(Also Albert Einstein married his first and second cousin, not sure how that works. I suppose great minds.... enjoy rooting their cousins)

 

[BarneyBent]

As it happens (and not at all ironically), I came up with a pretty good definition of irony (for a layman) earlier today (or yesterday, I guess) (by the way, my overuse of parentheses is totally unintentional and has nothing to do with irony, as you will see in the upcoming definition; one may postulate, however, that given the elusive and difficult to define nature of irony, and the role parenthese play in the qualification of statements, and by extension, definitions, I may subconciously be using these parentheses as a sort of thematic tie-in).

Anyway, the defition I came up with was this:

When events are of a nature that contradict, or humorously support, an associative expectation which is based on notions of certain elements that play a role in said events.

For example, if a soldier was to be sent to Iraq, survive a lot of contact with the enemy, come back home and immediately get hit by a bus, this would be somewhat ironic. The expectation associated with a soldier is that soldiers tend to die at war. However, he didn't die at war, he died at home after surviving war. This contradicts the expectation.

Note that the associatiative expectation doesn't have to actually make logical, causal sense. While it might be reasonable to expect a larger proportion of soldiers to die while at war than normal civilians, take for example somebody that designs traffic light systems, road planning, etc, who is late to work because he is stuck in traffic. This is ironic, because of the expectation of competence in traffic we associate with those whose job it is to minimise traffic congestion, even though being able to design a road system has little to do with being able to navigate one while in a car.

In fact, one might argue that the irony and humour is actually stronger when such an associated expectation isn't logical.

One thing I will say is that I don't think Darwin marrying his cousin is particularly ironic. It was fairly common practice at the time, and really, evoluationary theory and inbreeding aren't really all that closely related. It would have been far more ironic had Mendel, who was a pioneer in the field of heritability, married his cousin.

It is, however, ironic that Darwin, who proposed a theory that has single handedly done more damage to the brand of Christianity than any other piece of science, was actually deeply Christian, even by the standards of the day, and studied to be a priest.

Finally, not a single "example" of irony in the song "Ironic" by Alanis Morissette is actually ironic. However, by naming the song "Ironic" and listing all these examples of non-ironic things, it is possible that Morisette was being intentionally ironic, which would in fact make her a troll, and a very good one. This is, however, unlikely; to attribute such a motivation would be paying too much credit to an artist who has never before nor since demonstrated such awesomeness.

 

[stuart27]

Finally, not a single "example" of irony in the song "Ironic" by Alanis Morissette is actually ironic. However, by naming the song "Ironic" and listing all these examples of non-ironic things, it is possible that Morisette was being intentionally ironic, which would in fact make her a troll, and a very good one. This is, however, unlikely; to attribute such a motivation would be paying too much credit to an artist who has never before nor since demonstrated such awesomeness.

This. I've always thought it was some very clever trick, but then wondered why I was giving so much credit to Alanis Morisette.

But anyway, blame her for the constant misconstruing of the term.

 

[woopedazz]

It's like rain on your wedding day

 

[stuart27]

It's like rain on your wedding day

10,000 spoons when all you need is a knife.

 

[BarneyBent]

As it happens (and not at all ironically), I came up with a pretty good definition of irony (for a layman) earlier today (or yesterday, I guess) (by the way, my overuse of parentheses is totally unintentional and has nothing to do with irony, as you will see in the upcoming definition; one may postulate, however, that given the elusive and difficult to define nature of irony, and the role parenthese play in the qualification of statements, and by extension, definitions, I may subconciously be using these parentheses as a sort of thematic tie-in).

Anyway, the defition I came up with was this:

When events are of a nature that contradict, or humorously support, an associative expectation which is based on notions of certain elements that play a role in said events.

For example, if a soldier was to be sent to Iraq, survive a lot of contact with the enemy, come back home and immediately get hit by a bus, this would be somewhat ironic. The expectation associated with a soldier is that soldiers tend to die at war. However, he didn't die at war, he died at home after surviving war. This contradicts the expectation.

Note that the associatiative expectation doesn't have to actually make logical, causal sense. While it might be reasonable to expect a larger proportion of soldiers to die while at war than normal civilians, take for example somebody that designs traffic light systems, road planning, etc, who is late to work because he is stuck in traffic. This is ironic, because of the expectation of competence in traffic we associate with those whose job it is to minimise traffic congestion, even though being able to design a road system has little to do with being able to navigate one while in a car.

In fact, one might argue that the irony and humour is actually stronger when such an associated expectation isn't logical.

One thing I will say is that I don't think Darwin marrying his cousin is particularly ironic. It was fairly common practice at the time, and really, evoluationary theory and inbreeding aren't really all that closely related. It would have been far more ironic had Mendel, who was a pioneer in the field of heritability, married his cousin.

It is, however, ironic that Darwin, who proposed a theory that has single handedly done more damage to the brand of Christianity than any other piece of science, was actually deeply Christian, even by the standards of the day, and studied to be a priest.

Finally, not a single "example" of irony in the song "Ironic" by Alanis Morissette is actually ironic. However, by naming the song "Ironic" and listing all these examples of non-ironic things, it is possible that Morisette was being intentionally ironic, which would in fact make her a troll, and a very good one. This is, however, unlikely; to attribute such a motivation would be paying too much credit to an artist who has never before nor since demonstrated such awesomeness.

Wow. When high on caffeine at 3:40 in the morning, I really write like a douchebag.

 

[nicky]

I think the soldier dieing is bad luck not ironic

 

[BarneyBent]

I think the soldier dieing is bad luck not ironic

It's both. The two are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they are closely related. A lot of perceived ironies will be the result of bad luck, as they are things which are not expected. Things that are not expected are things that tend not to happen, and so are usually the product of bad luck.

 

[Freakie]

It's getting a free ride when you've already paid.

 

[woopedazz]

Just want to point out that bloodstainedangel's post is the only actual irony in this thread. Laughing at Alanis Morissette's poor interpretation of irony and even going to the point of calling it ironic (which it is) before misinterpreting the definition of irony yourself and giving an example congruent with Alanis' poor attempts is in all sense and purpose situational irony at it's best.

For example, if a soldier was to be sent to Iraq, survive a lot of contact with the enemy, come back home and immediately get hit by a bus, this would be somewhat ironic. The expectation associated with a soldier is that soldiers tend to die at war. However, he didn't die at war, he died at home after surviving war. This contradicts the expectation.

No. That is bad luck. Irony is a reversal; or a contradiction of expectations. Irony would be if a Jew and a Muslim could not marry because of their faith and without telling one another renounced their faiths and became a Muslim and a Jew (respectively) only to once again find themselves unable to marry due to differing religious beliefs. I.e. They suffer from a reversal of some kind.

And that right there is why your post could have been taken as an amazing troll or a not so amazing fail. Unfortunately the rest of your post and your subsequent defence sealed the deal.

EDIT: While I'm on my intellectual high horse the OP's post is also ironic for the same reasons.

This is ironic. I started off by stating that irony is not easily defined but after a rethink decided to just grab the dictionary definition from dictionary.com. Well guess what, I don't think they really define it properly.

1. the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of its literal meaning: the irony of her reply, “How nice!” when I said I had to work all weekend.

I don't think that's right. They present a total of 8 but none seem to really nail it.

That's called verbal irony and it is 100% correct. It's arguably like sarcasm.

Charles Darwin, father of the theory of evolution and natural selection, married, his, first cousin.

Are we agreed that is ironic? And it's not the opposite of anything we would expect, stupid free dictionaries.

No, it isn't ironic:

Firstly; Darwin's theory explains the differentiation of new species. He was not trying to create a perfect race of super humans via no inbreeding, therefore if he had children with his own mother it wouldn't change the fact that he was a biologist with a theory, and not a geneticist with a plan of action to stamp out inbreeding. He could have 18 mutant children/25 perfect ones and neither would be ironic.

Secondly you have the idea that marrying first cousins goes against the theory of evolution, which is arguable.

/Massive ego.

PS:

 

[beez]

I find it ironic when police go through red lights to catch a criminal.

 

[Mattman93]

Head = exploding.

Dictionaries always seem to get the definition wrong. Best one I found was something like "when two events are humorously perverse in their contradictory nature", or something like that.

 

[nicky]

I find it ironic when police go through red lights to catch a criminal.

..... If they were chasing a criminal for reckless driving and killed someone going through a red light.... Yep, maybe.

 

[Hu$tler]

Mate of mine made a status this morning that said...

"So sick of people complaining on their status"

 

[HarryTiger]

No, it isn't ironic:

Firstly; Darwin's theory explains the differentiation of new species. He was not trying to create a perfect race of super humans via no inbreeding, therefore if he had children with his own mother it wouldn't change the fact that he was a biologist with a theory, and not a geneticist with a plan of action to stamp out inbreeding. He could have 18 mutant children/25 perfect ones and neither would be ironic.

Secondly you have the idea that marrying first cousins goes against the theory of evolution, which is arguable.

/Massive ego.

PS:

I argue it is, and you're suffering from over-analysis. An instance of irony shouldn't need a detailed explanation, if you're brain has to go through hoops to detect irony then you're not likely to see it when it happens. Irony is usually felt as an immediate feeling.

Darwin's interest and fame had a lot to do with breeding and inherited characteristics. He married his cousin, which in this age we associate with adverse breeding traits. There's strong negative connotations which pertain to breeding.

And he wasn't intending anything, I don't think he considered the reproductive ramifications of marrying his cous (at the time, he did later it's fact), so it's a fluke for which the above is true.

But I was thinking about what we might expect Darwin to do if he did factor his scientific beliefs into his choice of partner. We could say, Darwin as a believer that genetic mutations advanced a species set out to choose a partner for whom he believed genetic mutations would be maximised. Then a first cousin might be a good choice (didn't have sister?).

 

[moistie]

Finally, not a single "example" of irony in the song "Ironic" by Alanis Morissette is actually ironic. However, by naming the song "Ironic" and listing all these examples of non-ironic things, it is possible that Morisette was being intentionally ironic, which would in fact make her a troll, and a very good one. This is, however, unlikely; to attribute such a motivation would be paying too much credit to an artist who has never before nor since demonstrated such awesomeness.

I agree with this, although this was a reasonable piss-take.

[YOUTUBE]Np-AE8gQ3EA[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Freakie]

It's the good advice that you just didn't take

 

[HarryTiger]

One thing I will say is that I don't think Darwin marrying his cousin is particularly ironic. It was fairly common practice at the time, and really, evoluationary theory and inbreeding aren't really all that closely related. It would have been far more ironic had Mendel, who was a pioneer in the field of heritability, married his cousin.

Perhaps yeah (see Einstein), but it's not common place today and is frowned upon. Judging Darwin by today's standards....

Darwin actually suffered anxiety over this topic because he did have offspring aflicted with illness and he worried it might be due to the cousin thing.

 

[woopedazz]

...Caused by bad babysitting!

 

[dales.girl38]

Irony is something I've never had a 100% grasp of. My Lit teacher used to tell us that irony is when you avoid walking under a ladder for bad luck and a piano falls on you and kills you.

Yesterday I had to fast all day for some tests I had today, and the only thing keeping me distracted from my stomach was reading a book called 'the hunger games'. I found it cruel, not sure if it's technically ironic though. GD?

 

[Pumbi]

Mate of mine made a status this morning that said...

"So sick of people complaining on their status"

Isn't this just hypocritical?

 

[Mattman93]

Irony is something I've never had a 100% grasp of. My Lit teacher used to tell us that irony is when you avoid walking under a ladder for bad luck and a piano falls on you and kills you.

Yesterday I had to fast all day for some tests I had today, and the only thing keeping me distracted from my stomach was reading a book called 'the hunger games'. I found it cruel, not sure if it's technically ironic though. GD?

It's mildly ironic, yes.

 

[Mattman93]

Isn't this just hypocritical?

Both..

 

[nicky]

Perhaps yeah (see Einstein), but it's not common place today and is frowned upon. Judging Darwin by today's standards....

Darwin actually suffered anxiety over this topic because he did have offspring aflicted with illness and he worried it might be due to the cousin thing.

It probably was, what does that have to do with irony?

 

[Scotland]

For example, if a soldier was to be sent to Iraq, survive a lot of contact with the enemy, come back home and immediately get hit by a bus, this would be somewhat ironic. The expectation associated with a soldier is that soldiers tend to die at war. However, he didn't die at war, he died at home after surviving war. This contradicts the expectation.

Sounds more unfortunate than ironic.

If a solider serving in Iraq requested a discharge from the Army to return home to a safer occupation and was then killed at work that would be reasonably ironic.

Likewise if your surviving solider was hit by a bus with an 'End the senseless losses in Iraq. Bring home our soliders so they can be safe' bumper sticker, that'd be well ironic...

I saw a sign in Dubai on a roadside rubbish bin which read 'Keep Dubai Green'. On the face of it not overly ironic, but given the bin was next to an air conditioned bus stop on a road that basically runs between a series of man made islands a shopping mall containing an indoor ski slope, well you be the judge.