Is Heath Shaw Elite?

[Markfs]

After Daisy, I started thinking about whether Heater is elite.

Here is the evidence

1. He has been the elite back pocket for some time, or second elite to that elite guy who plays at Geelong
2. He did an elite job in the finals last year
3. He has been consistently a good player for longer than Buddy.
4. He does elite things......and we can all name at least one..

So I think he's elite...

 

[Antz]

Brendan Goddard is an elite backman. Heater not so IMO.

 

[smiddaz123]

Elite for his position. I wouldn't have him as an overall elite footballer though, although he's closer than he's given credit for.

 

[Swooop]

After Daisy, I started thinking about whether Heater is elite.

Here is the evidence

1. He has been the elite back pocket for some time, or second elite to that elite guy who plays at Geelong
2. He did an elite job in the finals last year
3. He has been consistently a good player for longer than Buddy.
4. He does elite things......and we can all name at least one..

So I think he's elite...

Markfs, I'm gonna be a pain in the arse again, and ask you, as the OP, to define elite, so we are all talking the same stuff.

Otherwise discussion is comparing apples to oranges.

The average definition on the other recent thread re Daisy was probably around top 25 in the AFL.

You happy to go with this?...you say, it's your thread

 

[Dr Pool]

He will go through a period of about 5 down games about round 16 to round 21.

He does every year.

 

[Ed D]

I wouldn't call him elite, no. To be fair I wouldn't call Enright elite either. Goddard is the only current similar player who I would call elite. Perhaps if you were just talking about rebounding defenders he'd be right up there, but even still he's not the clear stand out.

 

[Forgotten Legend]

Thing is no-one defines 'elite' as a defender or forward. I think he is a stellar player and one of the best rebound players in the game. The only person I can think elite in a defensive role is Goddard, and that is because he also plays up the ground and is often roaming the ground getting possession of the ball in greater quantity thus he achieves more recognition. Though I think Heathers in our best five players, his role isn't positioned at being 'elite' rather then getting the job done effectively and constantly. In my mind he is elite, but the definition from me personally will be different to others.

 

[Bloben]

Agree that it totally depends on the definition of elite.

If the definition is the best player in that position for the last few years then quite possibly he is elite. If the definition is that he is one of the best handful of players overall then he definitely is not elite.

 

[Rusty22]

in our top 5

 

[Knightmare]

Quality player having a very good season to date.

One of the better backman in the league, hasn't been an AA player and probably wouldn't even have him inside my top 50 league wide.

Would just consider him a quality backman and leave it at that.

My elite Pies would be:
Swan, Pendles, Daisy, Dids.

A few others are close to elite in their roles and or very important to the team structurally (Jolly + Cloke), though I would argue not elite by league standard.

 

[look at him goooo!]

Goddard isnt an elite backman! hes an elite midfielder/utility

Heath Shaw is our best defender as a complete package in terms of both defensive work and rebounding ability and you'd be hard pressed to find many other defenders who do both as effectively as he does. Others I can think of off the top of my head are newman, enright, lake, fisher, and shaw doesnt look out of place among those names

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

Heath Shaw is a gun and underrated by Collingwood fans. I think he is every bit as good as Daisy. I think the only players in our team who are definitely better players are Swan, Pendlebury and Didak (who I think is also underrated by Collingwood fans, he is better at his role than Thomas is at his). Didak unfortunately is coming off surgery in the off season but he is definitely an elite player and will show this over the next 8-10 weeks.

If I ranked our Top 10 players it would look like this....

1) Swan (SUPERSTAR, i.e. Top 5 in the comp)

-gap-

2) Pendlebury
3) Didak (ELITE, i.e. Top 20 in the comp)

-gap-

4) Shaw
5) Thomas (NOT QUITE ELITE BUT GENUINE STARS, i.e. Top 30 - 40 in the comp)

-gap-

6) O'Brien
7) Cloke
8) Jolly
9) Tarrant
10) Beams

--> Dawes and Maxwell are probably next in line, Maxwell for importance especially but I am merely listing our best footballers.

These exercises are subjective of course and some will disagree but the first 3 are definitely elite. Shaw and Thomas you could mount arguments for but a lot of people would disagree, the rest just aren't elite but VERY good players. Heath's thirst for the contest is ridiculous, one of the gutsiest players in the game and his closing speed is scary. Our best backman by a lot and our best since Clement at his best.

 

[mdc]

Others I can think of off the top of my head are newman, enright, lake, fisher, and shaw doesnt look out of place among those names

He looks badly out of place next two those 2, who are two of the best 10 defenders of the last 15 years.

As for Shaw, kicking and consistency ensure he's a fair way off being elite. Terrific over-head for his size though, and love his tenacity.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

He looks badly out of place next two those 2, who are two of the best 10 defenders of the last 15 years.

Heath is as good as Enright unless we are talking about "how good a player is in the midfiled for a backman." As backmen they are equals and I think Heath's tenacity might even swing it his way.

Lake is on a different level and unquestionably elite.

 

[smiddaz123]

Enright is easily better than Shaw. Close to the best half back of last decade.

 

[mdc]

Heath is as good as Enright unless we are talking about "how good a player is in the midfiled for a backman." As backmen they are equals and I think Heath's tenacity might even swing it his way.

Lake is on a different level and unquestionably elite.

Enright was the best kick in the most skilled side of all time. Heath Shaw isn't in our top 10. Widening the gulf is the fact that Enright got more of the ball. Also a much better decision-maker.

If you're talking about pure defensive abilities, it's a lot closer, but Enright doesn't tend to let his opponent go nuts every few games.

Enright is easily better than Shaw. Close to the best half back of last decade.

I'd have Enright between Clement (1) and C.Johnson (3).

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

This is hopefully his AA year. He has been sensational so far this season. Stopping his opponent and creating drive from defense.
His kicking is brilliant too by the way, he just has that one out of twenty that is a complete clanger. Overconfidence. If he wasn't such a great kick he wouldn't try some of the kicks he does which sometimes result in turnovers.

He is behind only Corey Enright as the best pure running half back in the game so I would say he is an elite running half back.

Like a couple of others I would say Heater is in the best and most important half a dozen players in the side. Big game player too. I could be pretty biased though as he is probably my favorite player. The only time I can remember him being clearly beaten by his opponent was against Petterd last year.

 

[mdc]

The only time I can remember him being clearly beaten by his opponent was against Petterd last year.

Gray chopped him up pretty good in Rd 1, but otherwise I agree, he's in very good form. Again Carlton especially he played a superb game.

 

[FAIRANDBALANCED]

Id hardly say Gray chopped him up. Gray was at his best during that run in the third qtr, and for the most part of it, Shaw was warming the bench and Alan Toovey was playing our loose man in defense. Wonder how they kicked 6 in a row??!!

 

[Zephyr Effekt]

being in the top 3 players for you're position is elite.

the game is pushing players these days to be a jack of all trades & a master of none.

if you're job is to stop you're direct opponent & generate run from the backline, & you do it better than anyone else, you should be considered elite.

 

[gravy1]

I think he's closeish, at the very least I'd call him AA quality (not sure that makes you elite).

Two interesting points. Firstly, Paul Roos called Heath Shaw our most important player a couple of weeks ago on On the Couch. Secondly, I consider him a better player than Maxwell and O'Brien, both AAs whereas Heater is not.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

Enright was the best kick in the most skilled side of all time. Heath Shaw isn't in our top 10. Widening the gulf is the fact that Enright got more of the ball. Also a much better decision-maker.

If you're talking about pure defensive abilities, it's a lot closer, but Enright doesn't tend to let his opponent go nuts every few games.
2
I'd have Enright between Clement (1) and C.Johnson (3).

You're underrating Shaw and you're overrating Enright (although he is a star). McLeod was a half back. He was obviously a different type of half back but if he wasn't better that Enright I've never seen a football game.

Enright might get more of the ball but he also hasn't been tagged as much. Enright is more skilled, gets more of the ball and is a better decision maker. Shaw is quicker, better overhead and has an explosiveness that Enright has never had. Shaw is also the most natural on-field leader in our side and would be captain if it wasn't for past indiscretions and his ADD.

Being a better kick does not make you a better player. Didak is clearly a better kick than Judd for instance. Drummond is a better kick than Gary Ablett. Aaron Davey s a better kick than Dane Swan.

 

[smiddaz123]

McLeod was probably the better player, but I'd much rather Enright in my backline than McLeod, personally.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

McLeod was probably the better player, but I'd much rather Enright in my backline than McLeod, personally.

Each to their own I suppose

 

[mdc]

You're underrating Shaw and you're overrating Enright (although he is a star). McLeod was a half back. He was obviously a different type of half back but if he wasn't better that Enright I've never seen a football game.

I guess we fundamentally disagree then. McLeod was a terrific midfielder in his heyday, but Enright's the better HBFer, and pretty clearly for me. If McLeod played as well against other teams as he did against Collingwood, then it'd be a closer race.

Enright might get more of the ball but he also hasn't been tagged as much. Enright is more skilled, gets more of the ball and is a better decision maker. Shaw is quicker, better overhead and has an explosiveness that Enright has never had. Shaw is also the most natural on-field leader in our side and would be captain if it wasn't for past indiscretions and his ADD.

That he's quicker and more explosive is nice, but Enright is perfectly good defensively without these advantages. As for the bolded bit, I've never understood this at all. I think people confuse yelling a lot and being aggressive with leadership.

Being a better kick does not make you a better player. Didak is clearly a better kick than Judd for instance. Drummond is a better kick than Gary Ablett. Aaron Davey s a better kick than Dane Swan.

Silly analogies, we were comparing like with like. Is Drummond a better player than Ben Johnson? Is Didak better than Kade Simpson? Is Ablett better than Judd?