It's war: Essendon vs AFL. [Multiple reports of punishment - ASADA infractions still possible]

[Monkey King]

But don't the forms the players signed only mention it as Thymosin no one knows if it was the alpha or beta 4 version.

The issue with this is that there's fingerprints all over Beta 4, with its associated compounds having been purchased by those involved and delivered to the chemist; while there are no records on Alpha associated compounds having ever been purchased or delivered to those involved. With ambiguous records stating that at least one of these substances was administered, it seems unlikely that it would be the one you've never been in possession of, while not being the one that was in your possession.

Then we have the unsigned letter back-dated to February, that Dank sent to the chemist in June after receiving advice that Beta 4 was a prohibited substance, with some comments about Alpha, before having the letter returned with signature attached this time, in late June. Dodgy as **** that one.

It seems far more likely than not, if this info is correct, that players were injected with Thymosin Beta 4.

 

[KnaveyBlue]

Essendon's head in the sand defence is just comedy gold. Just because I'm bored, let's imagine for a second that they were shooting up their clubrooms with a gun, rather than shooting up their players:

Cop: "Uh, hi James. We got a report about some gunshots?"
Hird: "There were absolutely no guns fired in the clubroom."
Cop: "I dunno... There's empty casings everywhere, and our records show you bought a gun and bullets."
Hird: "Well... how can you prove I wasn't just firing blanks? Perfectly safe, harmless blanks?"
Cop: "There's bullet holes in all the walls."
Hird: "So? You can't prove that I was the one who put them there. Those holes could have been there for ages."
Cop: *sigh* "Whatever. Can I at least see the paperwork for that gun you're holding?"
Hird: "There is no paperwork. And if there was, I don't know what happened to it. Besides, this is a special gun that isn't illegal. My mate told me so."
Cop: "Ok, sorry James, but we're going to have to charge you. You could have really hurt someone."
Hird: "Good! All I want is my day in court so I can tell people the truth."
Cop: "Excellent, would you like to come to the station with us now and make a statement?"
Hird: "What!?!? God no. I don't want this out in the open."
Cop: "wtf? But you just said-"
Hird: "Waaaaagh this is just a smear campaign! You're out to get me! I'm innocent! You can't prove anything! The evidence is all circumstantial!"
Cop: "Look calm down. If you just come along quietly we'll drop the firearms charges and only give you a ticket for a noise complaint."
Hird: "Aha!!!! I'm gonna tell the media you tried to secretly help me! You're coming down with me you crooked cop!"
Cop: "Ok that's it, arrest him."
Hird: "STAND BY MEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!"

 

[dook]

Essendon's head in the sand defence is just comedy gold. Just because I'm bored, let's imagine for a second that they were shooting up their clubrooms with a gun, rather than shooting up their players:

Cop: "Uh, hi James. We got a report about some gunshots?"
Hird: "There were absolutely no guns fired in the clubroom."
Cop: "I dunno... There's empty casings everywhere, and our records show you bought a gun and bullets."
Hird: "Well... how can you prove I wasn't just firing blanks? Perfectly safe, harmless blanks?"
Cop: "There's bullet holes in all the walls."
Hird: "So? You can't prove that I was the one who put them there. Those holes could have been there for ages."
Cop: *sigh* "Whatever. Can I at least see the paperwork for that gun you're holding?"
Hird: "There is no paperwork. And if there was, I don't know what happened to it. Besides, this is a special gun that isn't illegal. My mate told me so."
Cop: "Ok, sorry James, but we're going to have to charge you. You could have really hurt someone."
Hird: "Good! All I want is my day in court so I can tell people the truth."
Cop: "Excellent, would you like to come to the station with us now and make a statement?"
Hird: "What!?!? God no. I don't want this out in the open."
Cop: "wtf? But you just said-"
Hird: "Waaaaagh this is just a smear campaign! You're out to get me! I'm innocent! You can't prove anything! The evidence is all circumstantial!"
Cop: "Look calm down. If you just come along quietly we'll drop the firearms charges and only give you a ticket for a noise complaint."
Hird: "Aha!!!! I'm gonna tell the media you tried to secretly help me! You're coming down with me you crooked cop!"
Cop: "Ok that's it, arrest him."
Hird: "STAND BY MEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!"

Perfection. Nailed it.

 

[MickyG]

The thing I am confused about is 'how could this be worse'.

From the evidence given, how can you give a scenario that is worse than what happened at the EFC?

Maybe roping every player down and injecting them without consent and threatening them after injection.


The fact that is the only worse scenario is very bad for the EFC.

It could be worse if there were records of banned substances being injected to a majority of their players leading to all those players getting life bans.

 

[Tex Support]

Cop: "Ok that's it, arrest him."
Hird: "STAND BY MEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!"

Gold.

 

[lysp]

OMG. Is this the depths some Dons supporters are now plumbing?

Do you realise that steroids and HGH are naturally occurring compounds in your body? That EPO is excreted by the kidneys? It's when you start injecting this shit that you have a problem.

I'm pretty sure you missed by point.

People are using the word "peptides" as an evil word. It sounds strange and i dont understand it so must be dangerous.

Some peptides are naturally occurring, some aren't and are completely safe, some may be questionable. The point is don't throw them all in the same bucket. "OMG peptides".

Peptide does not automatically mean steroid, but it's being used in that context.

 

[marblegiant]

The other stupidity that EFC have got to realise, is that any club that stands by Essendon is basically saying "we endorse what you have done, and how you have gone about it". Now personally, I can't see too many clubs being quite that stupid.

I'm thinking that the side effects of some of those drugs that Hirdy was popping is complete paranoia. Its starting to look like he might need to be sectioned for the sake of his health. And keep him away from sharp objects too. I don't think he'd play the ultimate victim card, but its clear that he won't be able to handle the shame that is coming his way.

 

[Tiger71]

Essendon's head in the sand defence is just comedy gold. Just because I'm bored, let's imagine for a second that they were shooting up their clubrooms with a gun, rather than shooting up their players:

Cop: "Uh, hi James. We got a report about some gunshots?"
Hird: "There were absolutely no guns fired in the clubroom."
Cop: "I dunno... There's empty casings everywhere, and our records show you bought a gun and bullets."
Hird: "Well... how can you prove I wasn't just firing blanks? Perfectly safe, harmless blanks?"
Cop: "There's bullet holes in all the walls."
Hird: "So? You can't prove that I was the one who put them there. Those holes could have been there for ages."
Cop: *sigh* "Whatever. Can I at least see the paperwork for that gun you're holding?"
Hird: "There is no paperwork. And if there was, I don't know what happened to it. Besides, this is a special gun that isn't illegal. My mate told me so."
Cop: "Ok, sorry James, but we're going to have to charge you. You could have really hurt someone."
Hird: "Good! All I want is my day in court so I can tell people the truth."
Cop: "Excellent, would you like to come to the station with us now and make a statement?"
Hird: "What!?!? God no. I don't want this out in the open."
Cop: "wtf? But you just said-"
Hird: "Waaaaagh this is just a smear campaign! You're out to get me! I'm innocent! You can't prove anything! The evidence is all circumstantial!"
Cop: "Look calm down. If you just come along quietly we'll drop the firearms charges and only give you a ticket for a noise complaint."
Hird: "Aha!!!! I'm gonna tell the media you tried to secretly help me! You're coming down with me you crooked cop!"
Cop: "Ok that's it, arrest him."
Hird: "STAND BY MEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!"

Gold sir /respect

 

[invinciBlues]

Those are purely internal matters confined to the AFL competition.

From my understanding the AFL charges arise from a report from an external body (ASADA - a government department ). If ASADA has the right under Australian law to compel those it believes that have knowledge about doping practice or a specific doping violation to attend an interview and to impose civil penalties for non-compliance, then any such charges arising from those reports could be defended in a court of law. If James Hird or any of the other accused feels that they are not receiving an impartial hearing in regards to these charges then they may well ensure that they do receive such by resorting to a court of law such as the Supreme Court of Victoria. That is their right.

Again, I'm going to have to disagree and cite precedent, during our salary cap investigation the AFL brought in forensic accountants not affiliated with the AFL in order to bring charges against the Carlton FC.

It was a fair process and the punishments handed down by Ron Evans were extreme, but they had the desired effect in that there have not any salary cap rorting to the level of sophistication displayed by the CFC.

For the good of the comp we took our medicine without kicking up too much of a fuss, now its time for the EFC to do the same.

 

[invinciBlues]

I'm pretty sure you missed by point.

People are using the word "peptides" as an evil word. It sounds strange and i dont understand it so must be dangerous.

Some peptides are naturally occurring, some aren't and are completely safe, some may be questionable. The point is don't throw them all in the same bucket. "OMG peptides".

Peptide does not automatically mean steroid, but it's being used in that context.

Then lets call a spade a spade and refer to them as 'drugs'. Because thats essentially what they are.

 

[Laphroaig]

I'm pretty sure you missed by point.

People are using the word "peptides" as an evil word. It sounds strange and i dont understand it so must be dangerous.

Some peptides are naturally occurring, some aren't and are completely safe, some may be questionable. The point is don't throw them all in the same bucket. "OMG peptides".

Peptide does not automatically mean steroid, but it's being used in that context.

The ones that go in that bucket automaticly are the ones which are partials of banned substances, used in hope of getting the performance enhancing effect of the parent. Which funnily enough is one of the issues we are dealing with at Essendon.

 

[teknodeejay]

Essendon's head in the sand defence is just comedy gold. Just because I'm bored, let's imagine for a second that they were shooting up their clubrooms with a gun, rather than shooting up their players:

Cop: "Uh, hi James. We got a report about some gunshots?"
Hird: "There were absolutely no guns fired in the clubroom."
Cop: "I dunno... There's empty casings everywhere, and our records show you bought a gun and bullets."
Hird: "Well... how can you prove I wasn't just firing blanks? Perfectly safe, harmless blanks?"
Cop: "There's bullet holes in all the walls."
Hird: "So? You can't prove that I was the one who put them there. Those holes could have been there for ages."
Cop: *sigh* "Whatever. Can I at least see the paperwork for that gun you're holding?"
Hird: "There is no paperwork. And if there was, I don't know what happened to it. Besides, this is a special gun that isn't illegal. My mate told me so."
Cop: "Ok, sorry James, but we're going to have to charge you. You could have really hurt someone."
Hird: "Good! All I want is my day in court so I can tell people the truth."
Cop: "Excellent, would you like to come to the station with us now and make a statement?"
Hird: "What!?!? God no. I don't want this out in the open."
Cop: "wtf? But you just said-"
Hird: "Waaaaagh this is just a smear campaign! You're out to get me! I'm innocent! You can't prove anything! The evidence is all circumstantial!"
Cop: "Look calm down. If you just come along quietly we'll drop the firearms charges and only give you a ticket for a noise complaint."
Hird: "Aha!!!! I'm gonna tell the media you tried to secretly help me! You're coming down with me you crooked cop!"
Cop: "Ok that's it, arrest him."
Hird: "STAND BY MEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!"

POTY candidate!!!

 

[MickyG]

I'm pretty sure you missed by point.

People are using the word "peptides" as an evil word. It sounds strange and i dont understand it so must be dangerous.

Some peptides are naturally occurring, some aren't and are completely safe, some may be questionable. The point is don't throw them all in the same bucket. "OMG peptides".

Peptide does not automatically mean steroid, but it's being used in that context.

Did you read the bit where before the program was implemented Hird and Corcoran were advised by an AFL integrity officer and someone from ASADA that peptide use was a big problem and if they came across anything it should be reported?

 

[Ice-Wolf]

I can actually see some point in a no confidence vote for the AFL.

Given the severity of the charges laid the fact that the AFL was willing to just suspend the club from the 2013 finals, give a mere 12 month suspension to Hird, fine the club $2.5 million and strip draft picks.

In tabling that deal the AFL acted without integrity and showed that it would have covered this up if it could.

But in saying that I would not want my club to back up any motion tabled by Essendon. That could be mistaked as condoning the actions of the Essendon football club.

I somewhat agree, the other 17 clubs should be filing a motion to expel Essendon and put it's license up for tender for a Tasmanian based side and also requesting a hearing as to why Demetriou should retain his job.

 

[Baltimore Jack]

You do realise there are peptides in milk. And meat. And fish.

Be careful of that meat - it has similar effects to steriods, gets you bigger muscles.

Do you think you are adding anything of value to the discussion?

 

[Mofra]

Do you realise that steroids and HGH are naturally occurring compounds in your body? That EPO is excreted by the kidneys? It's when you start injecting this shit that you have a problem.

Preaching to the converted here brother. Have you ever tried forcing a steak into a syringe, it's nearly impossible!

Don't bother calling your local GP either, no help at all. Every time I mentioned I was having trouble with my hot beef injection, the receptionist just giggled and hung up on me.

 

[lysp]

Then lets call a spade a spade and refer to them as 'drugs'. Because thats essentially what they are.

A peptide is simply a short combination of amino acids. What's a large combination of aminos - a protein? Sounds less sinister doesn't it - consuming a part-protein?

eg. Creating peptides from the sequence 60-70 of beta-casein protein because it shows immunostimulatory and opioid properties. It also has ACE (angiotensin I converting enzyme) inhibitory activities which decrease tension in blood vessels and lowers blood pressure. Sounds bad and like a very serious chemical/drug. Where do you find beta-casein protein - milk.

I guess unless you want to use the broad definition of a 'drug' which is something that has an effect when introduced to your body which many things could fall under.

Did you read the bit where before the program was implemented Hird and Corcoran were advised by an AFL integrity officer and someone from ASADA that peptide use was a big problem and if they came across anything it should be reported?

Yes, my point was in reference to the emotive language to paint things in a negative light.

Do you think you are adding anything of value to the discussion?

Compared to most of the posts in the HT forum - very much so!!

 

[The_Reaper]

A peptide is simply a short combination of amino acids. What's a large combination of aminos - a protein? Sounds less sinister doesn't it - consuming a part-protein?

eg. Creating peptides from the sequence 60-70 of beta-casein protein because it shows immunostimulatory and opioid properties. It also has ACE (angiotensin I converting enzyme) inhibitory activities which decrease tension in blood vessels and lowers blood pressure. Sounds bad and like a very serious chemical/drug. Where do you find beta-casein protein - milk.

I guess unless you want to use the broad definition of a 'drug' which is something that has an effect when introduced to your body which many things could fall under.



Yes, my point was in reference to the emotive language to paint things in a negative light.



Compared to most of the posts in the HT forum - very much so!!

Or we'll call a spade and spade and call them 'drugs taken with the intention of enhancing performance that were not cleared for use by any relevant authority and may or may not be safe for human consumption'

 

[Riccardo11]

Congratulations to the EFC. Their delusion, arrogance, grandstanding and puzzling victim mentality is set to effectively destroy the AFL.

Whether they believe they are being unfairly victimized or pilloried (they aren't) for something they absolutely didn't do (they did), going to war with the competition will completely and utterly kill it.

We may even see an AFL without Essendon, and a rival comp set up a la Super League Vs NRL.

 

[Fletched]

A peptide is simply a short combination of amino acids. What's a large combination of aminos - a protein? Sounds less sinister doesn't it - consuming a part-protein?

eg. Creating peptides from the sequence 60-70 of beta-casein protein because it shows immunostimulatory and opioid properties. It also has ACE (angiotensin I converting enzyme) inhibitory activities which decrease tension in blood vessels and lowers blood pressure. Sounds bad and like a very serious chemical/drug. Where do you find beta-casein protein - milk.

I guess unless you want to use the broad definition of a 'drug' which is something that has an effect when introduced to your body which many things could fall under.



Yes, my point was in reference to the emotive language to paint things in a negative light.



Compared to most of the posts in the HT forum - very much so!!

What is performance enhancing?

Everything players do they are always trying to enhance their performance either through training, food, recovery or even surgery.

Where should the line be drawn?

 

[Crawb]

Congratulations to the EFC. Their delusion, arrogance, grandstanding and puzzling victim mentality is set to effectively destroy the AFL.

Whether they believe they are being unfairly victimized or pilloried (they aren't) for something they absolutely didn't do (they did), going to war with the competition will completely and utterly kill it.

We may even see an AFL without Essendon, and a rival comp set up a la Super League Vs NRL.

And what teams will the Essendon Football League consist of exactly? Essendon Black, Essendon Red, a few EDFL teams, Fitzroy & University? Seriously?

 

[lysp]

Or we'll call a spade and spade and call them 'drugs taken with the intention of enhancing performance that were not cleared for use by any relevant authority and may or may not be safe for human consumption'

Take Dr Andrew Garnham's quotes from his interview:

Asked whether he believed it was a performance enhancing substance, he replied: "We've got no evidence to support that."

Asked whether AOD-9604 was harmful, he responded: "Like all drugs we know that there are side effects, we know those side effects are minimal ... I would regard it as a safe substance."

And before you think it's simply another story of BS, do you think a guy with these qualifications would put his reputation on the line by lying?

Dr Andrew Garnham MBBS DipRACOG FACSP

Role and profile:
Dr. Garnham’s role includes academic and applied involvement with the school’s Exercise, Muscle and Metabolism Program; medical assessment and supervision of human research projects; sampling of blood and muscle tissue; collaboration with human research studies at other institutions; training of postgraduate and Honours research students; teaching in sports injury prevention and exercise prescription, and public health advocacy.

Research Interests
Dr. Garnham’s major research interests are in the areas of:
• Exercise metabolism
• Influence of exercise on disease
• Promotion of physical activity
• Sports injury prevention
• Drug use in sport


Memberships
• American College of Sports Medicine
• Australasian College of Sports Physicians (Fellow)
• Australian Medical Association
• Sports Medicine Australia

Dr. Garnham is involved in a wide range of sports medicine related activities in the community and other academic institutions. He works in private clinical practice as a Sports Physician, and has been involved with many major sporting events, including Olympic and Commonwealth Games and World Championships, in a medical capacity.

• Adviser: Deakin University Laboratory and Biosafety Committee
• Editorial Board: Journal of Science and Medicine in Sport
• Board of Censors: Australasian College of Sports Physicians
• State Councillor: Sports Medicine Australia
• Tribunal Jury: Australian Football League
• Sports Physician: Australian Ballet
• Australian Ballet School
• Melbourne Tigers Basketball
• MLC Gymnastics
• VIS Cycling

 

[The_Reaper]

Take Dr Andrew Garnham's quotes from his interview:



And before you think it's simply another story of BS, do you think a guy with these qualifications would put his reputation on the line by lying?

And the other substances?

 

[Nikita Blue]

What is performance enhancing?

Everything players do they are always trying to enhance their performance either through training, food, recovery or even surgery.

Where should the line be drawn?

Seriously is this the next line Essendon supporters are going to run...a philosophical discussion on the meaning of performance enhancing?

 

[Scotland]

Wouldn't it be awesome if this saga took down Essendon and the AFL administration.

Ultimate two birds, one stone scenario.