January 6 hearings.

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Maggie5 said:
It is obvious, you don't like anything about the Democrats so I would question your objectivity.

No-one is getting worked up, most of us are enjoying the theatre.

Cheney has a strong view and is cleverly laying out the evidence and he has since stepped back from what you posted. You don't seem to like her either. Fancy bringing her relationship with her sister into discussions.


Not sure anyone has stated Republicans are a legitimate threat to democracy however I imagine a number of us think that lines were crossed by Trump and his cohorts.

One Judge allowed testimony from Eastman to be heard despite Eastman stating client/lawyer privilege. In his summary the Judge also stated that two laws could have been broken. 18 USC §§1512(c)(2) and 371, most commonly mentioned as a basis for indicting Trump.

This has a way to go, I also believe that the Democrats are being cautious in what they say. If they were talking about charges, this would give Trump more fuel for fundraising and ammunition calling it a witchunt (if he isn't already saying it), thus giving him ammunition for the coming elections.

I also think that Garland is smart not making any public comment until all the evidence is laid out.
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It’s a tightrope the committee are facing. There is a segment of the population who don’t know or care if republicans are trying to trash democracy (which they are).

This will get everything on public record in a dispassionate way, just the facts. It may sway some moderates and kick some Dems and their supporters to realise this isn’t a drill, the republicans are a right wing fascist party who are looking to destroy American democracy brick by brick.

I do agree with the overall premise that the Dems and many people aren’t taking the threat of Trump and the republicans seriously enough with what they are trying to do.
 
spinynorman said:
How do you feel about her calling Ilhan Omar and Rashida Tlaib, two Muslim congresswomen, anti-Semites? How do you feel about her supporting the prolonging of war in Afghanistan and wanting the war machine expanded to other countries, such as Iran? I don’t care enough about this pointless committee to hate whoever’s on it - isn’t AOC on it? I still like her, despite some disappointment.
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Basically everything to you is related to US foreign intervention, could be talking about any topic and you will circle back to it. For you we are forever in 2002, and believe US isolationism will make the world a glorious utopia (it will not).

I’m not saying Cheney is great or anything (she isn’t) but she believes in the concept of free and fair elections, which makes her a rarity in the current GOP. At least if she was voted out she’d accept the result.

I mean it’s mind blowing that someone who believes in elections can be someone of higher moral integrity in major US political party, but here we are.
 
CM86 said:
You took a clickbait headline and used it to diminish the hearings, dismiss the findings, and insult anyone following it and discussing the findings.

While ignoring the contents of the actual article.
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I apologise if my comment stung. Honestly not my intention, but I acknowledge that in reaching for a pithy line I gave a bitchy dig - part of the culture I live in and associate with, but could cause insult.

I think the headline summed up the article and the rest is people talking around the issue, but if you want to live in hope you're free to. I share your hope that those guilty of subverting the democratic will of people are brought to justice! But I believe I'm being realistic in being completely cynical about that, and am bewildered by those who appear to believe anything will be achieved by this, which I think is so clearly performative.
 

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Blue1980 said:
Basically everything to you is related to US foreign intervention, could be talking about any topic and you will circle back to it. For you we are forever in 2002, and believe US isolationism will make the world a glorious utopia (it will not).

I’m not saying Cheney is great or anything (she isn’t) but she believes in the concept of free and fair elections, which makes her a rarity in the current GOP. At least if she was voted out she’d accept the result.

I mean it’s mind blowing that someone who believes in elections can be someone of higher moral integrity in major US political party, but here we are.
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Ehhhh I outlined in the Trump thread my multitude of issues with Liz Cheney, not all of which is related to her father and her warmongering. That said, as I'm not an American, my biggest concern when it comes to American politics is their foreign policy.

I think the reason to hark back to the 2000s and the Bush/Cheney era is that it gives us an idea of where this is going. If people can actually overturn a democratic result successfully (not just inspire some losers to run around the building in a frenzy but not come close to achieving their goals), commit war crimes, implement torture and kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people and all be entirely free today, what hope do we have that anything will come to any of these people since?
 
spinynorman said:
Ehhhh I outlined in the Trump thread my multitude of issues with Liz Cheney, not all of which is related to her father and her warmongering. That said, as I'm not an American, my biggest concern when it comes to American politics is their foreign policy.

I think the reason to hark back to the 2000s and the Bush/Cheney era is that it gives us an idea of where this is going. If people can actually overturn a democratic result successfully (not just inspire some losers to run around the building in a frenzy but not come close to achieving their goals), commit war crimes, implement torture and kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people and all be entirely free today, what hope do we have that anything will come to any of these people since?
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We have our own Bush in Australia, don't think I would be worrying about what happened in the US during the 2000's.
 
spinynorman said:
I apologise if my comment stung.
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It didn't sting when you said it, it didn't sting when other right wing mouthpieces said it. It didn't sting when maroon and blue made along the same lines.
It isn't some biting insight... it's a talking point that's being pushed around at the moment, to distract from the findings.




You can frame it however you like. I thought we had an understanding and you were better than that. That's why I asked what you were doing.
CM86 said:
You took a clickbait headline and used it to diminish the hearings, dismiss the findings, and insult anyone following it and discussing the findings.

While ignoring the contents of the actual article.
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Again, frame it however you like, but the above is what happened, and what you did.
 
CM86 said:
It didn't sting when you said it, it didn't sting when other right wing mouthpieces said it. It didn't sting when maroon and blue made along the same lines.
It isn't some biting insight... it's a talking point that's being pushed around at the moment, to distract from the findings.

You can frame it however you like. I thought we had an understanding and you were better than that. That's why I asked what you were doing.
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Ha I was trying to legitimately be conciliatory, but clearly "sting" was a choice of word that, well, stung. My point was I'm a pretty catty person, but where in life that is playful and, frankly, I'm a delight, I get that isn't oft appreciated in the online political discussion, where we're always fighting even when agreeing.

The initial post in that linked thread was a bit confused, some of the rest completely wrong. I've never expressed views such as "whites do not travel on public transport", "African American murders which are far higher than other groups are committed by....African Americans" or "Trump does not respect democracy? The duly elected President of the United States does not respect democracy? The 80 million Americans who voted for Trump do not respect democracy? Does an old demented man, Biden, that is the laughing stock of the world respect democracy? The head of a crime gang that allows his son to rake in millions of dollars from China and the Ukraine respect democracy?" and would like to think that's known, even by those who most fervently disagree with me.


CM86 said:
Again, frame it however you like, but the above is what happened, and what you did.
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And they can frame it how they like but in the end this will all be for naught, and like the Mueller Report et al, the anticipation won't lead to any happy ending for those who want to see the end of Trump.
 
spinynorman said:
Ehhhh I outlined in the Trump thread my multitude of issues with Liz Cheney, not all of which is related to her father and her warmongering. That said, as I'm not an American, my biggest concern when it comes to American politics is their foreign policy.

I think the reason to hark back to the 2000s and the Bush/Cheney era is that it gives us an idea of where this is going. If people can actually overturn a democratic result successfully (not just inspire some losers to run around the building in a frenzy but not come close to achieving their goals), commit war crimes, implement torture and kill hundreds of thousands of innocent people and all be entirely free today, what hope do we have that anything will come to any of these people since?
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My biggest concern is the right wing here and elsewhere in the western world get emboldened by what goes on in America.

So if they see them going all authoritarian trashing democracy, LNP will see that as a template to go with here.

Not that I think you necessarily disagree with the above but I see that as our current and pressing threat and don’t think there is any line to draw between this and Bush era foreign policy.

I’m not convinced anyone will be brought to justice here, but the implications if they are not are way closer to home for the US than not holding people to account for foreign wars. It could literally mean the end of democracy (what they have apparently been trying to defend since WWII) in their own country.
 
Blue1980 said:
My biggest concern is the right wing here and elsewhere in the western world get emboldened by what goes on in America.

So if they see them going all authoritarian trashing democracy, LNP will see that as a template to go with here.
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For sure, there’s an inherent anti-democratic streak to the right wing ideology. Remember the complete indignation from the Liberals during the period of the Rudd/Gillard Government, and Abbott’s complacency that he would be the independents’ choice for the hung parliament? Howard frequently whittling away democratic access for anti-Liberal voters, and then of course the Dismissal of Whitlam. See globally today with the various right wing forces particularly in South America, and it’s undeniably bleak.

(I think to some extent we’re lucky here in Australia for Pauline Hanson, who lacks the charisma or intelligence of a Trump or Le Pen and so acts as a natural impediment to the growth of the far right, for now.)

Blue1980 said:
I’m not convinced anyone will be brought to justice here, but the implications if they are not are way closer to home for the US than not holding people to account for foreign wars. It could literally mean the end of democracy (what they have apparently been trying to defend since WWII) in their own country.
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I agree with all the above, hence my disappointment that the Democrats have chosen to partake in political theatre that won’t accomplish what’s required.
 

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spinynorman said:
I agree with all the above, hence my disappointment that the Democrats have chosen to partake in political theatre that won’t accomplish what’s required.
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I think its more than political theatre, though I have never had very high hopes for this.

All this BS talk of Biden waiting for "the fever to break", it won't break, the GOP is the fever now.

I however am not sure its simply the dems in congress not taking the threat to democracy seriously. Many are, but I see general apathy in the US population, who seem exhausted and worn down by all the rhetoric they tune out (basically what the right wing wants). So then people think "both sides are as bad as each other", and just think all politicians are bad and corrupt, though comparing any indiscresions from the dems to the republicans is like comparing a mouse with a whale.

My hope is this can make some dems and moderate republicans see the gravity of the situation, as at the moment the US are sleep walking to autocracy in the short term, and dictatorship in the medium/long term.
 
A federal judge on Wednesday denied Stephen K. Bannon’s motion to dismiss the criminal contempt case against him, saying he would allow a July 18 trial to go forward as scheduled.
Bannon, 67, was charged in November with two counts of contempt of Congress after refusing to comply with a subpoena issued a few months earlier by the House select committee investigating the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol.

The former chief strategist to President Donald Trump had asked U.S. District Carl J. Nichols to toss out the charges, arguing that he relied on the Justice Department’s long-standing advice about congressional subpoenas to White House aides and was not committing a crime when he failed to produce documents or appear before the committee.

But at a three-hour court hearing Wednesday, Nichols, a 2019 Trump appointee, repeatedly challenged his claims and ultimately decided in the Justice Department’s favor.
 
CM86 said:
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The funny part about this video is that a Democrat Rep. accused him of showing a group around.

He denied it and held a committee meeting saying he had viewed all the security video and then asked for a disciplinary hearing against the accuser.

Republicans live in a fantasy world and lies are a prerequisite to enter.
 
Blue1980 said:
My hope is this can make some dems and moderate republicans see the gravity of the situation, as at the moment the US are sleep walking to autocracy in the short term, and dictatorship in the medium/long term.
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I think that they might also be directing this to Independents and hopeully when it comes to crunch time, the moderate Republicans can voice their opinion through their vote in November.

It seems that Trump's nominated candidates didn't do too well in Georgia. Interesting voting system there.

www.nytimes.com

A Georgia Mystery: How Many Democrats Voted in the G.O.P. Primary? (Published 2022)

Donald Trump has pointed to so-called crossover voters as a significant factor in his chosen candidates’ heavy losses. Some Democrats, too, embrace the theory. But the reality seems more complicated.
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
 
E Shed said:
Trump & his allies conspired to commit treason. It’s as simple as that.

www.theguardian.com

Trump brought US ‘dangerously close to catastrophe’, January 6 panel says

Bennie Thompson says US ‘fortunate for Mike Pence’s courage’ in refusing to accept Trump’s scheme to reject electoral count
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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Of course he did... but will he be held accountable, no. Yet the US government is spending millions and years to bring Julian Assange to trail for being a journalist
 
www.theguardian.com

Searing testimony increases odds of charges against Trump, experts say

Former prosecutors say January 6 hearings have delivered ‘compelling evidence that Trump committed crimes’
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com


hmmm surely the DOJ is not playing the long game, and slowly building a case against Trump. Where is the going for the glory filled half-arsed quick resolution ??? How unAmerican.
 
At the very least you’d hope if some of those around trump face criminal charges and end up facing jail time, it will make people feel more circumspect helping him in 2024/25 when if he doesn’t win he will try the same s**t again.

Mind you it will be tougher, as the Dems are actually in power now.
 
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