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Joakim Noah

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james Dean

james Dean

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Most improved player in the Assoc for mine, Leads the league in boards, averaging 4.6 OFF Rebounds.

Also has doubled his scoring since last year, with his blocks FG%, FT% and assists improved as well.

Chance for DPOY

How do you guys rate him compared to the other centres?
 
most improved could be headed his way.

compared to other centres he's got the best hair! not much offense really to speak of, but hustle and D get the crowd going. i like him!


so far, we on BF have declared jennings ROY, Nash MVP and Noah MIP (to be determined). I reckon we should all pool some money together and lay a multi on these awards. I'm willing to accept money from all who want in, and will place at a betting agency of your choice. i am really good with money especially after donating some of my life savings to this nigerian bank (they are gonna pay me back!).
 
bynum for me is most improved......have always like noah though since he was a rookie
 

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kwame said:
bynum for me is most improved......have always like noah though since he was a rookie
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Bynum has done well, but most knew he had the talent just injuries were holding him back.

Noah for mine looked like being an average player up until this season. Now he is an excellent defend
 
Noah is having a great season, but he's not the only one. No Most Improved love for Will Bynum, Marc Gasol, or Carl Landry?

Looking at it statistically through the Player Efficiency Rating (PER), Will Bynum (21.0), Marc Gasol (21.3) and Carl Landry (21.9) are having just as good a season as Noah's (20.9), and have all made significant improvements over last season. And again going by PER, Andrew Bynum (21.3) isn't even having his best season (2007-08 - 22.6).

I wouldn't discount guys like Greg Oden, Marreese Speights (when he returns from injury) Chris Kaman and even Chris Bosh as outsiders for the award either, if they keep up their current form. Players like Zach Randolph (2003-04) Jermaine O'Neal (2001-02) have won the award slightly 'after the fact' in the past, so it's not totally unprecedented for guys that have already shown a bit to win the award.
 
He is the heart and soul of the Chicago Bulls. He might not be the best player but he is one of the most valuable. If he were to get traded or leave I reckon the Bulls would go backwards.
 
DarwinRoo said:
He is the heart and soul of the Chicago Bulls. He might not be the best player but he is one of the most valuable. If he were to get traded or leave I reckon the Bulls would go backwards.
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Clearly the best player on the Bulls, and it's not even close.

Obviously when Rose gets back to full health/effectiveness it's more line-ball, but atm he's single-handedly keeping them above .500.
 
mdc said:
Clearly the best player on the Bulls, and it's not even close.

Obviously when Rose gets back to full health/effectiveness it's more line-ball, but atm he's single-handedly keeping them above .500.
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Rose is comfortably the Bulls best and most valuable player when fit, as evidenced by how he turned the Bulls around last year as a rookie. Noah is a clear 2nd though.
 
matty p said:
Rose is comfortably the Bulls best and most valuable player when fit, as evidenced by how he turned the Bulls around last year as a rookie. Noah is a clear 2nd though.
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Meh, 33W -> 41W isn't exactly a massive turnaround, especially given that in 2008 they basically tanked the second-half of the season with Boylan coaching.

You'll also note that Noah's PER was better than Rose's last year, and has significantly jumped again this year. And PER doesn't even take into account defense, which is where Noah's miles ahead.

Look at this way; Noah's in the top 5 centres in the league right now, whereas Rose would struggle to crack the top 10 PGs, even when healthy. He's a very good talent though, and in 3 years should overtake Noah.
 
Hodges said:
Who's your top 5 centers?
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Well, Dwight, Duncan and Bynum clearly better. Gasol too if he counts as a centre, though he gets more mins at the 4. Noah/Horford the next best 2, with Bogey not too far behind. Am I forgetting anyone?
 

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Id have Bogey ahead of Noah. Much better on the offensive end, and statistically a better defender.

You forgot Bargnani btw... :p
 
mdc said:
Well, Dwight, Duncan and Bynum clearly better. Gasol too if he counts as a centre, though he gets more mins at the 4. Noah/Horford the next best 2, with Bogey not too far behind. Am I forgetting anyone?
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Chris Kaman?
 
mdc said:
You'll also note that Noah's PER was better than Rose's last year, and has significantly jumped again this year. And PER doesn't even take into account defense, which is where Noah's miles ahead.
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According to this article, PER definitely does take into account defensive factors, as well as pretty much everything else a player does on the floor. It also takes into account the player's team's pace of play, as well as the production of other players in the league. It's a great all-around statistical measure of a player's individual impact and efficiency, and it's no coincidence that the top players in the league often have the best PER numbers throughout the season.

Borgsta said:
Is there another Bosh that I am forgetting?
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Have a look at Chris Bosh's stats. He was already good, but he's definitely made improvements to his game this year:

PER
2009-10 - 30.9 (3rd in the league)
Previous Best - 23.8

Points Per 36 Minutes
2009-10 - 27.1
Previous Best - 22.2 (2007-08)

Free Throw Attempts Per 36 Minutes
2009-10 - 11.8
Previous Best - 8.3 (2007-08)

Rebounds Per 36 Minutes
2009-10 - 12.3
Previous Best - 10.0 (2006-07)

Turnovers Per 36 Minutes
2009-10 - 1.8
Previous Best/Worst - 1.4 (2003-04)/2.6 (2006-07)

Offensive Rating
2009-10 - 127
Previous Best - 118 (2005-06)

True Shooting Percentage (Measure of shooting efficiency that takes into account all types of shots)
2009-10 - .607%
Previous Best - .588% (2007-08)

Rebound Percentage (Percentage of available rebounds the player gets)
2009-10 - 19.4%
Previous Best - 16.4% (2006-07)

Turnover Percentage (Turnovers per 100 possessions)
2009-10 - 7.7%
Previous Best - 10.2% (2008-09)

He's actually playing less minutes per game than he did last year (hence the per 36 minute comparisons), but has still drastically improved his scoring and rebounding numbers (especially on the offensive boards), and is just doing more while he's on the floor. I'm not saying that he's the front runner like others are, but he should at least be in the mix, despite his previous accomplishments. Judging by his recent comments though (that he feels disrespected when people exclude him from the league's best players, and they seemingly forget he's been an All-Star, etc.), he might actually be insulted to be given this award. To be honest, he should be in MVP consideration too. It'd be a unique double if he won both awards, and would be a testament to how much he's elevated his game this season. He might not be great defensively (the entire Toronto squad is pretty futile defensively), but as a scorer/rebounder combo, he's probably the best in the game right now.

As for the best centres debate, from a statistical viewpoint:

PER 2009-10 (minimum 120 minutes played) (as of 22/11/2009)

  1. Dwight Howard - 24.8
  2. Marc Gasol - 21.5
  3. Andrew Bynum - 21.2
  4. Al Horford - 20.9
  5. Joakim Noah - 20.9
  6. Roy Hibbert - 20.7
  7. Greg Oden - 19.9
  8. Andrew Bogut - 18.9
  9. Chris Kaman - 18.6
  10. Nazr Mohammed - 18.6
  11. Erick Dampier - 17.6
  12. Shaquille O'Neal - 17.4
  13. Brook Lopez - 17.0
  14. Brendan Haywood - 16.4
  15. Marcus Camby - 16.0
  16. Oleksiy Pecherov - 15.7
  17. Emeka Okafor - 15.6
  18. Kendrick Perkins - 14.3
  19. Brad Miller - 14.2
  20. Nenad Krstic - 12.8
  21. Zaza Pachulia - 12.6
  22. David Andersen - 12.1
  23. Spencer Hawes - 12.1
  24. Joel Pryzbilla - 11.3
  25. Mikki Moore - 10.5
  26. Ryan Hollins - 10.1
  27. Samuel Dalembert - 9.6
  28. Zydrunas Ilgauskas - 9.6
  29. Tyson Chandler - 8.8
  30. Joel Anthony - 7.3
 

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Damon_3388 said:
According to this article, PER definitely does take into account defensive factors. It's a great all-around statistical measure of a player's individual impact and efficiency, and it's no coincidence that the top players in the league often end up with the best PER numbers.
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It counts blks and stls to an extent, but in terms of defensive ability it's rubbish. John Hollinger, who's the guy that invented the metric, admits as much. The classic example is Bruce Bowen who always had a shocking PER despite being the best wing defender of his generation.

We really don't have any measure in basketball atm that can capture someone's defensive ability unfortunately.
 
mdc said:
It counts blks and stls to an extent, but in terms of defensive ability it's rubbish. John Hollinger, who's the guy that invented the metric, admits as much. The classic example is Bruce Bowen who always had a shocking PER despite being the best wing defender of his generation.

We really don't have any measure in basketball atm that can capture someone's defensive ability unfortunately.
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I think the Defensive Rating goes some way to doing that (and usually the better defenders end up with a lower DR), but even that is somewhat reliant on the team's defensive ability as a whole. Tracy McGrady has the same career DR as Michael Jordan (103), yet McGrady is considered to be a fairly average defensive player, while Jordan is a DPOY award winner (1987-88), as well as a multi-time All-Defensive 1st teamer.

Even though this probably supports the fact that PER is weighted somewhat in favour of offense over defense, I think Bruce Bowen's low PER numbers (relative to his importance) reflect his minimal contribution on offense. Not only did he not score a lot of points, but he didn't shoot all that great a percentage throughtout his career either (.409 FG% and .575 FT%, despite a good .393 3PT%). If he'd scored with higher efficiency (FG%, etc.), or even averaged more assists per game (just 1.6 per 36 minutes throughout his career), his PER would duly rise. The PER is as much about efficiency as it is volume of numbers, akin to the Champion Data Player Ranking in footy. That's why someone like Joakim Noah still has a good PER, despite being a fairly limited offensive player. He shoots a good percentage, makes the right pass (and has good assist numbers for a centre as a result), and doesn't turn the ball over a heap, so he's a relatively efficient (and valueable) offensive player, despite not scoring as much as, say, Chris Bosh does.
 
Damon_3388 said:
I think the Defensive Rating goes some way to doing that (and usually the better defenders end up with a lower DR), but even that is somewhat reliant on the team's defensive ability as a whole. Tracy McGrady has the same career DR as Michael Jordan (103), yet McGrady is considered to be a fairly average defensive player, while Jordan is a DPOY award winner (1987-88), as well as a multi-time All-Defensive 1st teamer.
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DR is rubbish as well, for the reasons I outlined in the Andrew Bogut thread. I think the best current metric might be the "opposition PER" which 82games tracks, but even then it's very very poor, as it depends drastically on team schemes, team-mates, etc...

Adjusted +/- is another good one to look at as that should theoretically take into account both offense and defense, but here we suffer from insufficient data in most cases.

Damon_3388 said:
Even though this probably supports the fact that PER is weighted somewhat in favour of offense over defense, I think Bruce Bowen's low PER numbers (relative to his importance) reflect his minimal contribution on offense. Not only did he not score a lot of points, but he didn't shoot all that great a percentage throughtout his career either (.409 FG% and .575 FT%, despite a good .393 3PT%). If he'd scored with higher efficiency (FG%, etc.), or even averaged more assists per game (just 1.6 per 36 minutes throughout his career), his PER would duly rise.
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That's all true, but the point is that if you take the converse of Bruce Bowen, say Allen Iverson (all offense, no defense), you still get a PER > 20, which Bruce can only dream of.
 
mdc said:
That's all true, but the point is that if you take the converse of Bruce Bowen, say Allen Iverson (all offense, no defense), you still get a PER > 20, which Bruce can only dream of.
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Even still, Iverson has greatly above average scoring numbers (despite poor shooting percentages), and hasn't always been as poor a defender as people are making out (1.9 steals per 36 minutes over his career, and a good number of Defensive Win Shares too). Sure, he might have just used his quickness to play the passing lanes a lot of the time, but if result is the creation of a turnover and your team getting the ball, then it's not necessarily bad defense, just risky. You're risking getting burnt more often than not (and if Iverson didn't have the particular athletic capabilities that he possesses, it'd be a bad tactic), but I don't think guys of Iverson's size and can really effectively defend any other way, because they don't have the size or reach (compared to, say, a Jason Kidd sized-PG) to do anything other than use their quickness and stay in front of their man and/or play help defense and play the passing lanes.
 
Eh, let's agree to disagree on Iverson's defense, he was always a spud. For the sake of the PER argument though, you can replace with Nash if you like. Same result.

Personally, I'm in the camp that believe any reasonable defensive measure is impossible until we start recording much more data.
 

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