Recommitted Josh Kelly [re-signed]

[Wild Bill]

GWS finished 16th in the year that Boyd requested a trade, so no I'm not sure what you do mean.

Dogs sacked their coach and had their captain - Griffen, Cooney and Higgins leave. One team clearly looked to be in massive trouble and the other on the rise.

Here is 54 pages on the plight of the Dogs when Griffen walked and they got Boyd.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ryan-griffen-pick-6-traded-for-tom-boyd.1080074/

 

[dlanod]

Dogs sacked their coach and had their captain - Griffen, Cooney and Higgins leave. One team clearly looked to be in massive trouble and the other on the rise.

Here is 54 pages on the plight of the Dogs when Griffen walked and they got Boyd.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/ryan-griffen-pick-6-traded-for-tom-boyd.1080074/

So that means GWS were in the top 8?

 

[Wild Bill]

So that means GWS were in the top 8?

2 clubs going in different directions - GWS heading into the 8 the Dogs a basket case for years to come. So at that time - no they were not in the 8.

Posters saying that he could win flags at GWS have no idea what the Roos can achieve in the next 9 years. Dogs have shown how quickly things turn.

 

[bird_man]

2 clubs going in different directions - GWS heading into the 8 the Dogs a basket case for years to come. So at that time - no they were not in the 8.

Posters saying that he could win flags at GWS have no idea what the Roos can achieve in the next 9 years. Dogs have shown how quickly things turn.

Dogs were a basket case as far as the way the club was ran. Their list was in terrific shape though.

 

[ManOfClay]

2 clubs going in different directions - GWS heading into the 8 the Dogs a basket case for years to come. So at that time - no they were not in the 8.

Posters saying that he could win flags at GWS have no idea what the Roos can achieve in the next 9 years. Dogs have shown how quickly things turn.

I vividly recall us losing our final match of the season to gws with the last kick of the day (boyd actually played for gws that day) after stringer dropped a sitter and they rebounded.

Giants fans told me it would be the last time our teams would be close

 

[Wild Bill]

Dogs were a basket case as far as the way the club was ran. Their list was in terrific shape though.

2015 ladder thread had them in the bottom 4. Most dog supporters had them bottom 4. No one saw a flag in 16 coming.

 

[Wild Bill]

I vividly recall us losing our final match of the season to gws with the last kick of the day (boyd actually played for gws that day) after stringer dropped a sitter and they rebounded.

Giants fans told me it would be the last time our teams would be close

Remarkable turn around.

 

[bird_man]

2015 ladder thread had them in the bottom 4. Most dog supporters had them bottom 4. No one saw a flag in 16 coming.

They definitely shot up faster than we all suspected, but they had still had a strong young list built with high first round draft picks and some good father son's. They had already bottomed out and weren't going to get any worse before they got better. North's list is in a totally different spot, they don't have an abundance of 20-21 year old guns like the Dogs had at the time.

 

[my name was taken]

I would imagine he would get $600k from us for a further 2 years, after that Griffen, Mumford and Shaw probably all gone and maybe some others, out of the extra 400 half is gone in tax. It most likely comes down to how much worth does a player put on playing in top 8 side V a bottom 8 side.

And half of that 600k that's above 180k would be tax too.

 

[Wild Bill]

They definitely shot up faster than we all suspected, but they had still had a strong young list built with high first round draft picks and some good father son's. They had already bottomed out and weren't going to get any worse before they got better. North's list is in a totally different spot, they don't have an abundance of 20-21 year old guns like the Dogs had at the time.

It's why Kelly is our 1st target. We haven't seen much of our 2014 kids which should get a good run this year. A couple of the kids showed a bit on the weekend and looks like we have a good replacement for Goldy. We need a couple of years in the bottom 4 to get the top end talent. 1 top 10 draft pick since 2010. That was a father son pick.

 

[SCRAY72]

They definitely shot up faster than we all suspected, but they had still had a strong young list built with high first round draft picks and some good father son's. They had already bottomed out and weren't going to get any worse before they got better. North's list is in a totally different spot, they don't have an abundance of 20-21 year old guns like the Dogs had at the time.

Actually thd Dogs have the second least top 20 picks in the comp on their list. Success built on the father sons as you mentioned, a bunch of rookies, some good trades and some top 10 picks.

 

[bird_man]

Actually thd Dogs have the second least top 20 picks in the comp on their list. Success built on the father sons as you mentioned, a bunch of rookies, some good trades and some top 10 picks.

Yes you've also had some good trades and rookies. But leading up to the Boyd trade I think from memory you guys had 3 top 6 picks in two years, all of which became very good players. That goes a long way towards a rebuild. North would be doing the opposite, bringing in a gun (yes he's young) but then if they are made to do a similar deal to the Treloar one, they won't have a pick like that for a couple of years.

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

RE: The Boyd/Bulldogs comparison; the Boyd trade happened AFTER the Bulldogs had spent two years in the bottom 4 and had collected Stringer, Hunter, Macrae, Bont and Johannisen. Clay Smith was taken in 2011. All of those guys were instrumental in the Dog's flag and they were probably on a lot less than what they are worth now at the time due to their youth. Tom Boyd was very much the finishing piece in the puzzle for the Bulldogs, and they only had to give up 1 first rounder because Griffen wanted to leave and multiple-year pick trading was not yet in vogue.

None of that applies to North.

 

[Mr Magic]

What am I missing here????

If Kelly leaves GWS because he can and a trade does not take place how does the wooden spoon contender like a Carlton or Freo not pick up Kelly and if they can't how is this not restraint of trade?

 

[YEMOC NAYR]

This is some series money. You could understand him walking for that.

Not sure that I understand offering it, but thats a whatever.

 

[Mr Magic]

This is some series money. You could understand him walking for that.

Not sure that I understand offering it, but thats a whatever.

Exactly, so if he is not traded he walks and goes to Freo or Carlton who have selections before North does he not as a football asset.

I guess if a contract can't be struck he sits on Carltons or Freo's books off-field till next years trade period???

 

[YEMOC NAYR]

Exactly, so if he is not trade he walks and goes to Freo or Carlton who have selections before North does he not as a football asset.

I guess if a contract can't be struck he sits on Carltons or Freo's books off-field till next years trade period???

This shit doesn't happen anymore, but even then he could nominate for ND, or PSD. Either way I find it unlikely a clubs going to take someone who has intentions playing elsewhere for 1m per season, and could be front ended if north really wanted to scare others off.

 

[Mr Magic]

This shit doesn't happen anymore, but even then he could nominate for ND, or PSD. Either way I find it unlikely a clubs going to take someone who has intentions playing elsewhere for 1m per season, and could be front ended if north really wanted to scare others off.

Quite the contrary, the clubs need to protect the market mechanism otherwise clubs could sue players arguably for market manipulation and raise matters theoretically with the ACCC for anti-competitive behaviour!!

It is an interesting one because I have seen such tactics in other industries where novice lawyers will suggest its a civil matter between stakeholders but I think in that separate instance it was an attempt by the lawyer to extract funds out of self interest.

The question becomes the valuation of assets within the AFL books including sustainability if they are wholly depend on contracts separate from any market oversight which drive competitiveness represent the will of all stakeholders representing the will of the people or at least the fans.

If their is no competitive market exchange fair and free to allocate resources efficiently and competitively fans are simply watching corruption which brings into question any sport product the AFL feels it is providing and therefore any value it represents including asset values and income streams derived from the belief of demand for use of such assets from a supposed audience market

 

[dlanod]

I vividly recall us losing our final match of the season to gws with the last kick of the day (boyd actually played for gws that day) after stringer dropped a sitter and they rebounded.

Giants fans told me it would be the last time our teams would be close

At the end of 2014, a year in which they had 6 wins? They were smoking serious crack. And that's with one of my numerous GWS member's hats on.

 

[YEMOC NAYR]

Quite the contrary, the clubs need to protect the market mechanism otherwise clubs could sue players arguably for market manipulation and raise matters theoretically with the ACCC for anti-competitive behaviour!!

Or not

 

[Mr Magic]

Or not

True but remember the clubs have to be sustainable and ideally the AFL executive would like to be paid for services rendered from sustainable income sources that are more reliable than not one would suspect!

If the Essendon fans did not believe the were following a club that was not in a competition to win a prize would you think they would still follow it like a entertainment package like WWE? In such a scenario a fan could support Josh Kelly's success and ignore the clubs of GWS, North, or even Essendon as drivers of KPI's. In such a perverted dynamic fans might divert into separate individual sports/entertainment like footballer goal kicking contests without clubs for example where fans support individual people separate from clubs like a NBA slum dunk contest for marking for example

For example one of the reasons the powers at be stopped zoning was to make the game more competitive and give clubs reasons to believe supporting a club has purpose in the sense it is challenged to compete so the reward for achieving premiership success has a purpose of fulfilment!!

 

[Giant Strides]

I think that any talk about PSD is just posturing by people who have nothing to do with what actually happens. If Kelly accepts Norths' offer, there may be some posturing (public or private) from both sides about trade value - GWS will try to maximise it & Norths will try to minimise it - but in the end a fair trade will happen. (Fair meaning both sides likely to be slightly unhappy at what they received/gave.) Norths won't want to jeopardise any goodwill from a PSD stunt, Kelly will no doubt want a clean exit and fair compensation for GWS, and GWS will need/want to get reasonable value.

 

[bird_man]

Exactly, so if he is not traded he walks and goes to Freo or Carlton who have selections before North does he not as a football asset.

I guess if a contract can't be struck he sits on Carltons or Freo's books off-field till next years trade period???

For him to walk to Freo or Carlton in the PSD they have to be paying the salary he's asking. Can't see anyone else offering that kind of deal at this stage.

 

[Mr Magic]

I think that any talk about PSD is just posturing by people who have nothing to do with what actually happens. If Kelly accepts Norths' offer, there may be some posturing (public or private) from both sides about trade value - GWS will try to maximise it & Norths will try to minimise it - but in the end a fair trade will happen. (Fair meaning both sides likely to be slightly unhappy at what they received/gave.) Norths won't want to jeopardise any goodwill from a PSD stunt, Kelly will no doubt want a clean exit and fair compensation for GWS, and GWS will need/want to get reasonable value.

Seriously, though, why would Carlton or Freo, not pick him up if he slips through and sit him on the books for a year without a contract????

I would have thought the market for players between clubs overrules any contracts players may desire with clubs until they become free agents as the market allows. In fact this would have been a condition of compliance for the player affiliated with the AFL competition otherwise it brings into question the integrity of the competition and effectively brings the competition into disrepute as a competitive market.

 

[ManOfClay]

At the end of 2014, a year in which they had 6 wins? They were smoking serious crack. And that's with one of my numerous GWS member's hats on.

At the time the general consensus was dogs would collapse to be fair. A month or so later and our captain and coach was gone and CEO shortly after.

We also sold the farm for a promising gws kid, some say out of spite