Lance Armstrong formally charged with doping

[Slax]

Now that formal charges have now been laid it bring into doubt his story whilst showing that there is definitely some validity to the comments made by former teammates.

Personally have had questions over his story for a while, whislt one or two former team-mates might be sour grapes, there was more than that. I'm a firm beleive that where there is smoke there is generally fire.

http://www.news.com.au/world/armstr...g-charges-report/story-e6frfkyi-1226395033251

If stripped of the titles would give Ullrich another 3 titles and interestingly enough Kloden his second one after being declared winner twice after the original winner was disqualified.

New Winners would be:
1999 - Alex Zulle
2000 - Jan Ullrich
2001 - Jan Ullrich
2002 - Joseba Beloki
2003 - Jan Ullrich
2004 - Andres Kloden
2005 - Ivan Basso

 

[bombers007]

Most of them have all been done for drugs as well. Only clean there is probably kloden.

 

[Vader]

Most of them have all been done for drugs as well. Only clean there is probably kloden.

That's the problem with retrospectively removing Armstrong's tour victories. It's almost certain that the top 10-20 riders were all on the gear at the time. Disqualify him and the win still goes to another doper. What's the point?

About the best result would be to acknowledge that these victories were achieved through pharmaceutical means and just leave it at that.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

ough pharmaceutical means and just leave it at that.

Wouldn't that simply encourage more doping if the penalty is so remote.

I would have thought simply doing what the NRL did with the Storm rorting, just have no winner in that year

 

[Vader]

Wouldn't that simply encourage more doping if the penalty is so remote.

I would have thought simply doing what the NRL did with the Storm rorting, just have no winner in that year

No winner is a good suggestion. Certainly better than handing it to another doper.

I don't think it would encourage doping, given that these offences are historic in nature and almost all of the riders involved are now retired (Kloden being the only exception). Penalties for new offences would be dealt with under today's laws & regulations.

 

[bombers007]

I don't quite understand why he can't compete in triathlons until the investigation is over. Alberto Contador actually tested positive and was still able to compete until the penalty was given out an then lost his titles.

 

[Vader]

I don't quite understand why he can't compete in triathlons until the investigation is over. Alberto Contador actually tested positive and was still able to compete until the penalty was given out an then lost his titles.

Contador was banned from riding for a period, cleared by the Spainish drug administration (after they were leaned upon by the politicians), only to have the not guilty finding overturned. He was free to ride during the period between the not guilty finding and it's eventual overturning on appeal.

Armstrong has been charged by the USADA and is prevented from riding until the outcome of that charge is determined. I believe he's also looking at a lifetime ban, due to the systematic nature of the charges against him, whereas Contador was only looking at 2-years for drug use.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

There was no way all that evidence submitted to the Grand Jury wasn't going to make its way to the USADA. The U.S. federal prosecutors may have dropped the investigation into him in February because it might not make it to a court but the USADA weren't going to stop diging.

But looks like they have blood evidence from his comeback period not his 1999-2005 period.
From the link above.

The Washington Post reported that USADA had written to Armstrong and seven others alleging the agency had collected blood samples from Armstrong in 2009 and 2010 that were "fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions."

According to the Post, which obtained a copy of the letter, USADA claims it has witnesses to the fact that Armstrong and five former cycling team associates - including Italian doctor Michele Ferrari and cycling team manager Johan Bruyneel - engaged in a doping conspiracy from 1998-2011.

http://www.news.com.au/world/armstr...g-charges-report/story-e6frfkyi-1226395033251

That story has the link to the 15 page letter from USADA, which for some reason I haven't been able to read pdf files over the net the last few days. If anyone can highlight/cut and paste the major issues in it, I'd appreciate it.

 

[Surkin]

The witness testimony. Multiple riders will testify that LA:

1) injected and distributed EPO 1998-2005
2) transfused 2000-2005 and had transfusion equipment at his residence
3) used and administered to others testosterone/olive oil mixture (no dates given)
4) used cortisone without medical supervision (no dates given)
5) underwent saline/plasma transfusions (no dates given)

Also witnesses will testify LA used EPO, testosterone and HGH up to 1996.

The charges against LA thus include:

Use
Possession
Trafficking
Administration to others
Assisting rule breaking
Aggravating circumstances

Also of note: the letter begins by saying every rider who was notified except LA agreed to come before USADA and speak truthfully about their involvement in doping.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Thanks Surkin

It was a bit of a mystery why federal prosecutors dropped the case. I haven't been able to find a good link explaining why. This might be the reason as they have gone to USADA and waited for the retesting of his 2009 and 2010 samples to hook in his 1998-05 activities

George Hincapie retired the other day. He gave evidence to the Grand Jury. I wonder if this has anything to do with it. I assume he is named in the 15 page letter?

 

[Vader]

George Hincapie retired the other day. He gave evidence to the Grand Jury. I wonder if this has anything to do with it. I assume he is named in the 15 page letter?

Gave me a heart attack there.. I was expecting him to be Captain of the BMC team at the Tour. Turns out that he's announced he'll retire at the end of the 2012 season, so he's not officially retired just yet.

 

[Surkin]

No witnesses are named Russell.

 

[Vader]

Thanks Surkin

It was a bit of a mystery why federal prosecutors dropped the case. I haven't been able to find a good link explaining why. This might be the reason as they have gone to USADA and waited for the retesting of his 2009 and 2010 samples to hook in his 1998-05 activities

In a word.. politics. They were pressured into shutting down the investigation. Apparently they were just days away from laying charges when word came down from above that they had to pull the plug on the whole thing.

 

[Surkin]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/97023821/001-armstrongcharging0613

Try this link Russell. Should work for the letter.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Here is the story from the Washington Post

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lance...s-from-usada/2012/06/13/gJQAefnPaV_story.html

On page 2 they have links to the story in February when Federal Prosecuters droped the case.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/97023821/001-armstrongcharging0613

Try this link Russell. Should work for the letter.

Thanks Surkin, you are a bloody champion. I have no idea why I cant read pdf files over the net. Bloody annoying.

In a word.. politics. They were pressured into shutting down the investigation. Apparently they were just days away from laying charges when word came down from above that they had to pull the plug on the whole thing.

Any idea who from? Justice department and Attorney General Eric Holder? Texas Governor Rick Perry who he is close to apparently? His old mate George W. Bush did a bit of lobbying? Higher than that??

Same shit happened with Operation Puerto. The Spanish authorities knew that Fuentes went back to athletes who won medals at Barcelona . They didn't want to open up that can of worms so they shut it down or in reality just let it fade in oblivion. That's why I'm suspicious of Nadal.

 

[Vader]

Any idea who from? Justice department and Attorney General Eric Holder? Texas Governor Rick Perry who he is close to apparently? His old mate George W. Bush did a bit of lobbying? Higher than that??

Not sure where it was coming from. Apparently Armstrong had hired some very high powered lawyers, who had previously made a mess of a similar investigation into a some high profile baseball players. Maybe the AG just got nervous.

I suspect that there might be more to it than that though. Lance Armstrong Incorporated has its fingers buried deep in some very interesting pies. I suspect that Armstrong might have had a word with some high powered friends and reminded them that he knew where more than a few bodies are buried.

OK.. a lot of that is me being a conspiracy theorist.

It's worth pointing out that the AG's refused to provide any reasoning at all for the investigation's closure. The AG certainly didn't indicate that the investigation was being shut down due to a lack of evidence, or that there was any suggestion of Armstrong's name being cleared.

Same shit happened with Operation Puerto. The Spanish authorities knew that Fuentues went back to athletes who won medals at Barcelona . They didn't want toopen up that can of worms so they shut it down or in reality just let it fade in oblivion. That's why I'm suspicious of Nadal.

From what I've read, most of Fuentes' clients were football (soccer) players. If they'd prosecuted everyone involved they would have had to hand back the 2006 World Cup and La Liga would have been decimated. I've never heard mention of Nadal being involved, only soccer players & cyclists.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

Not sure where it was coming from. Apparently Armstrong had hired some very high powered lawyers, who had previously made a mess of a similar investigation into a some high profile baseball players. Maybe the AG just got nervous.

I suspect that there might be more to it than that though. Lance Armstrong Incorporated has its fingers buried deep in some very interesting pies. I suspect that Armstrong might have had a word with some high powered friends and reminded them that he knew where more than a few bodies are buried.

OK.. a lot of that is me being a conspiracy theorist.

It's worth pointing out that the AG's refused to provide any reasoning at all for the investigation's closure. The AG certainly didn't indicate that the investigation was being shut down due to a lack of evidence, or that there was any suggestion of Armstrong's name being cleared.

Yeah forgot he has a crack team of lawyers who have a history of defending accused dopers and have had some pretty big wins in other cases fighting government bodies. I remember them being interviewed and the journo going thru their back ground. Yeah so the influence in high places is a given.

From what I've read, most of Fuentes' clients were football (soccer) players. If they'd prosecuted everyone involved they would have had to hand back the 2006 World Cup and La Liga would have been decimated. I've never heard mention of Nadal being involved, only soccer players & cyclists.

Footballers and Cycling were his 2 big main clients. Have you read the Fuentes History thread on Cycling News forums where a Belgium paper pieced together his history and joined the dots?? Have a read its worth it. From that article/thread

Spain won the 2010 World Cup - Italy the 2006, but yeah both leagues were known for having expensive and extensive 'medical programs."

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/442271/fuentes-history#post_3652483

2006
Operation Puerto hits the airwaves. Initial reports suggest that at least two hundred athletes are involved in the doping network - not only Cyclists, but also Basketball (Spain is defending World Champions and was runner-up in the 2007 Euro Championship), Football, athletics, and tennis players. This was initially confirmed by Fuentes in interviews, though he subsequently shut up.

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t/442271/fuentes-history#post_3652483

 

[imadodgyumpire]

As someone who has an arms length interest in cycling, it's hard for me to believe that Armstrong hasn't been doping. A problem I have is that he's been built up to be this cleanskin god. The way the mainstream media go on about him, I'm not sure if they would even want to reveal him to be a doper, even if he's found guilty. It's like they, themselves have something a stake. I don't get it?

Contador was banned from riding for a period, cleared by the Spainish drug administration (after they were leaned upon by the politicians), only to have the not guilty finding overturned. He was free to ride during the period between the not guilty finding and it's eventual overturning on appeal.

Armstrong has been charged by the USADA and is prevented from riding until the outcome of that charge is determined. I believe he's also looking at a lifetime ban, due to the systematic nature of the charges against him, whereas Contador was only looking at 2-years for drug use.

Can you send this post to Matt Keenan. Matt is, apparently, a respected cycling broadcaster/journalist, who asked the exact question (rhetorically, to KB and the listeners) when he was on radio this morning as the designated cycling guru. Matt should've known the answer to his own (and bombers007's) question and been able to explain, but instead came across as a cheerleading idiot.

The Armstrong cheerleading from Keenan and Phil Wrochna, puts me off taking a closer interest in cycling. It's ridiculous and makes me even more suspicious of Lance.

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

If you apply common sense it obvious something is not right.

Testosterone is a male athletes greatest asset. Yeah you have height, strength, co-ordination skill, VO2 Max etc. But testosterone gives a athlete power and strength and helps with athletic and personal drive

When Armstrong got cancer in 1996 he had one testicle removed. He came back and beat so many other champions and plenty who since have failed drug tests. Tests done over several Tour de France's show that his power as measured by watts/kilograms he is up there with the greatest ever recorded.

Imagine what he would have achieved with 2 testicles producing double the natural testosterone levels assuming of course as he tells us, he didn't get any doping assistance.

 

[blackcat]

Most of them have all been done for drugs as well. Only clean there is probably kloden.

not correct. They have him going to Freiburg for a blood tranfusion, and I think he had to pay his way out. He and Mick Rogers.

1. He's "never tested positive."

Neither has Marion Jones, and she admitted to doping for years. Neither did Barry Bonds. Neither did Valverde, Basso, Ullrich.

In fact, Lance did test positive for cortisone in '99, for which he obtained a post-dated TUE. Further, we have the issue of the 6 samples. The allegation is now that he again tested positive in 2001, but that was covered up.

2. This is a waste of taxpayer money.

The stated purpose of the USADA is to investigate doping in sport. Armstrong is still actively competing. Further, the USADA is NOT a government agency. It gets funding, like many other agencies. It gets that funding regardless, so there is no incremental cost. It gets its funding from the Office of National Drug Control Policy as well as other grants.

3. They are arbitrarily targeting Armstrong.

Per the USADA letter, Lance was given the same opportunity to talk as other cyclists. He is the only one who refused. If innocent, why refuse an opportunity to set the record straight and end all the investigations?

4. What happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?

Nothing happened. Armstrong is not in jail. He's not under house arrest. He's a free man. He has until June 22 to respond to the charges. The WTC, which is a PRIVATE organization, bars any athlete under doping investigation from competing in their events.

5. Those testifying against him are discredited.

No, the only ones against whom that charged can even be plausible are Hamilton and Landis, both of whom have very good reasons to NOT testify against Armstrong. Hincapie was Lance's right-hand man, and the guy Lance called a "brother". Others expected to testify have not had their credibility challenged at all.

Not sure where it was coming from. Apparently Armstrong had hired some very high powered lawyers, who had previously made a mess of a similar investigation into a some high profile baseball players. Maybe the AG just got nervous.

I suspect that there might be more to it than that though. Lance Armstrong Incorporated has its fingers buried deep in some very interesting pies. I suspect that Armstrong might have had a word with some high powered friends and reminded them that he knew where more than a few bodies are buried.

OK.. a lot of that is me being a conspiracy theorist.

It's worth pointing out that the AG's refused to provide any reasoning at all for the investigation's closure. The AG certainly didn't indicate that the investigation was being shut down due to a lack of evidence, or that there was any suggestion of Armstrong's name being cleared.

From what I've read, most of Fuentes' clients were football (soccer) players. If they'd prosecuted everyone involved they would have had to hand back the 2006 World Cup and La Liga would have been decimated. I've never heard mention of Nadal being involved, only soccer players & cyclists.

the person who had the Fed Bureau of Justice investigation shut down was a former mate of Eric Holder.

they had enough info to put him away for half a decade.

But money buys justice eh

 

[Surkin]

The thing I find hard to believe is that Lance would dope on his return to cycling. He had nothing to gain from doping, he had already won 7 tours.

 

[Vader]

The thing I find hard to believe is that Lance would dope on his return to cycling. He had nothing to gain from doping, he had already won 7 tours.

Old habits die hard?

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

The thing I find hard to believe is that Lance would dope on his return to cycling. He had nothing to gain from doping, he had already won 7 tours.

ego. If he didn't dope he probably would be 5 - 10 minutes behind the pelton. That wouldn't be great for the comeback tour sales.

 

[Black Diamond]

Most of them have all been done for drugs as well. Only clean there is probably kloden.

Based on the 'Never testing positive doesn't mean never doping' rule, the same aspersions cast over Armstrong can be easily applied to Kloden.

 

[blue gunslinger]

I don't quite understand why he can't compete in triathlons until the investigation is over. Alberto Contador actually tested positive and was still able to compete until the penalty was given out an then lost his titles.

If he came down here to do an ironman or tri I bet the race organizers would welcome him with open arms. Would be great for publicity of an event and sport, even if he was found out to be a cheat. Plus most of the pros would love a shot at beating a Tour winner esp if he was on the juice. Would be a feather in your cap. A few high profile sportsmen eg F1 driver Button have been in events here in WA and it has been a massive magnet. Craig Alexander has been a keen follower of lance's progress since he switched. Would be great to see these 2 go head to head at any distance