Lions Guernsey survey results: An open letter to Malcolm Holmes

[Mooch]

A membership isn't just a season pass, it's being a part of the club

This is something that a lot of people don't seem to realise. I had to explain it to my mate. Unfortunately this was after he had completed his survey. He didn't understand what the fuss was about! Being a member of a European club is a completely different proposition.

Great work to all involved. Thanks for your efforts. Incidentally, Jorgo, it's a bit weird to find I've been sitting behind you for the last 3 years I didn't really get to speak to you on Sunday but your wife ratted you out

 

[____]

I've said this before and I'll say it again:

The Round 13 game against the Bulldogs this year was a great day to be a Lions fan. It was great to see the pride that the players had in the jumper they were wearing that day. Wearing something that didn't look like a complete embarrassment in the for the first time since the 2009 EF v Bulldogs. Just like the vast majority of Lions fans on here, I want to see the jumper changed into something respectable. For me I can accept a new design if it fits that criteria.

Just like most Lions fans I don't like the paddlepop Lion. I have not bought any merchandise with the paddle-pop Lion with it. The so called "Fitzroy Lion" which was proudly worn on our jumpers between 1997-2009, had been accepted by every Lions fan, whether they had previously supported Bears, Fitzroy, both or started supporting the Brisbane Lions, as the REAL Lion.

However the thing that bothers me about our current jumper the most actually isn't the paddlepop Lion itself (as ugly as it is), but the size of it and how it looks like an under 12's jumper. I'd be saying that about our current jumper even if it had the real Lion on it. If you (the administration) really insist on keeping the paddle-pop, it should at the very least be shrunk back to the old size. If the Lions reverted back to the old template (maroon jumper, with blue yoke) but had the current paddle-pop Lion shrunk back to the old size, I could live with it (but I still wouldn't buy merchandise with the paddlepop). All merchandise I have bought since the logo changed has been from the First 18 range.

As everyone else had said, it was also wrong that the monstorisity of a jumper was forced upon us without consultation with members (although I was not a member at the time). As everyone else has said please let us vote on the jumper for 2014 and onwards, and don't forget to have a preference voting system.

Thank you and go Lions.

Sincerely,
Member #1825992

 

[matwt73]

All i'm saying is that i prefer the new guernsey and we all know how little petitions or anything will go to change anything, i'm just being realistic here.

I like the jersey too. It's fresh and fun. Part of me would like to see us put some positive history into this jersey so in 20 years time members can argue about which of our premiership jerseys was better.

What I won't abide is a club not listening to its members and not consulting them in accordance with its own members chartet.

 

[Viceregal]

Someone was talking about the man on the street not caring ... cool they won't care either way ...

If we are talking about the current members who the paddle pop have grown on ... I have yet to hear any of them cast disdain on the traditional lion ... so they will be fine either way

If we are talking about the semi-current, potential, and ex members whose passion for the traditional lion / against the paddle pop / against the lack of consultative process / against the previous-board sown contempt / desire to honour the spirit and letter of the merger agreement / ... well you get the idea .... then they *do* care either way.

The people in group three who love the lions enough to still support them despite their angst and who care enough to strive to repair the frayed soul of our merged club's self are the very ones who *by* their passion and *by* their love, and *through* their thinking reasoned balanced fanaticism will have an effect far beyond their mere numbers as they are the leaders of our awakening community pride and especially of our Victorian renaissance ... we are one of the two real interstate teams for we are 'home' in Queensland and 'home' in Victoria and we remember what it was like to have a vocal, supportive, engaged base in our southern home ... embrace and do not despise and reap the rewards of the love that is waiting to be shared ... it is truly there yet fearful, naturally enough, of being burned again.

From a different thread but thought it was worth repeating here ...

 

[BuntonRules]

TFB bought up a huge point= ask the players.

 

[LION UP]

TFB bought up a huge point= ask the players.

Unless they are guaranteed against any backlash (moratorium), you'll probably get "coaches coach, administrators administrate and players play.". Thanks Leigh.

 

[The Brisbane Beast]

and rebranding a logo or a company will never be popular but it has to be done

Collingwood and Coca Cola say otherwise.

so untill that time comes can we just move on?

Don't let us stop you.

 

[Brisroy Fitzbane]

Too right mate. You can't beat the real thing.

 

[whatboutbob]

Funny you guys should mention Coke. Digging through correspondence to write the OP unearthed this email with Bowers:

Mr Bowers,

You can hope all you like that my opinion of the strip will change over time, but that simply demonstrates that you just don't get it. This dissent will not simply go away if you ignore it.

As the club has been unwilling to undertake substantial research into the public's reaction to this guernsey post-release (or if you have done so, you've neglected to divulge results), then perhaps you'll take heed of a poll on the Courier Mail's website:http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/sport/afl/

Question: Do you like the Lions' playing strips?

- Yes, it's a big improvement
- No, it looks like they're wearing the Paddle Pop lion

The results at the time of writing, with nearly 800 votes cast, are 10% in favour, and a damning 90% against.

What more is required to prove to you that the guernsey change is a misstep?

I acknowledge the club's admission to using focus groups prior to the change, however focus groups gave the "new Coke" big thumbs-up in 1985, and look what happened there.

It is interesting to note some further parallels between the new Coke and the new guernsey, as taken directly from New Coke's wiki entry:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Coke

- Despite New Coke's acceptance with a large number of Coca-Cola drinkers, a vocal minority of them resented the change in formula and were not shy about making that known. A small minority, about 10-12%, felt angry and alienated at the very thought, saying that they might stop drinking Coke altogether. Their presence in focus groups tended to skew results in a more negative direction as they exerted indirect peer pressure on other participants.

- Roberto Goizueta, Coke's CEO defended the change by pointing out that the drink's secret formula was not sacrosanct and inviolable.

As protests gathered force the company reversed it's decision within 3 months of releasing the new flavour.

- Coke's President, David Keough, professed at the time of their back-flip: "There is a twist to this story which will please every humanist and will probably keep Harvard professors puzzled for years. The simple fact is that all the time and money and skill poured into consumer research on the new Coca-Cola could not measure or reveal the deep and abiding emotional attachment to original Coca-Cola felt by so many people."

- Finally it is interesting to note that with the rollback of new Coke, Coke sales increased by 14% over pre-new-coke levels.

So, Mr Bowers, all is not lost. There was no face lost by admitting they were wrong. In fact, they profited from it, leading some to believe that it was all a marketing ploy (the iSnack 2.0 prequel perhaps?).

Mr Bowers, if you simply *must* change the guernsey, for whatever commercial reasons you may have, then please, I implore you, just do a better job of it. As an indication of what may be more palatable to more supporters, I have attached a design that has seen support from many. It gives a more significant nod to the club's past while bringing the logo into the new century. I must note that the logo was designed by Anthony Costa (www.costasportslogos.com/ ) with whom I have no affiliation.

I'm confident you consider myself and other complainants rabble-rousers or whingers, but I honestly rarely complain about anything and am typically a positive Lions supporter, even through the darkest times, of which there were plenty in the early history of the Bears. The reason I mention this is to highlight that if I'm up in arms and making a fuss then please believe me that you have reason to be concerned.

I do understand that you will likely simply ignore this plea, but please understand that we will keep on until we have the numbers to force you to hear us.

Regards,

xxxxxxxxx

 

[Monkey Daniel]

Most teams in country leagues use an AFL type guernsey for their own... to name a couple there's Belmont Lions (GDFL) and Forrest Lions (CDFL) that use a guernsey based on the Brisbane Lions original. Cannot recall seeing any clubs in the country leagues donning the Paddlepop ( I could be wrong though )
By the way, Forrest won the Grand Final yesterday beating Lorne by 5 points!!

 

[Mr Ripper]

Most teams in country leagues use an AFL type guernsey for their own... to name a couple there's Belmont Lions (GDFL) and Forrest Lions (CDFL) that use a guernsey based on the Brisbane Lions original. Cannot recall seeing any clubs in the country leagues donning the Paddlepop ( I could be wrong though )
By the way, Forrest won the Grand Final yesterday beating Lorne by 5 points!!

Funny you should bring this up as I was discussing the very same thing with GabbaGirl at the B&F on Friday.

 

[GabbaGirl]

Funny you should bring this up as I was discussing the very same thing with GabbaGirl at the B&F on Friday.

Indeed we were. With all due respect to those who like the jumper, I can't imagine any team wanting to copy it!

 

[Crimso]

Indeed we were. With all due respect to those who like the jumper, I can't imagine any team wanting to copy it!

Auskicker's?

 

[spotthedog1]

Interesting discussion. I've seen much of the discussion over the past few years, and am still surprised by the backlash. I understand that people can decide not to like the new logo, and that's fair enough. I don't hate it, don't love it... but neither do i hate/love the old logo. I'm amazed though that Fitzroy supporters actually intend that the old lion was expected to last in perpetuity. That in 50/100/200 years time, they expect us to use an outdated, bland logo...

I'm not trying to troll or insight uproar here... i just am genuinely surprised that some fans don't want to accept that the club must eventually update. Whenever I watch old games, I think "my goodness, the guernseys look so outdated". Over time, the clubs update these. And one can argue "if it ain't broke", but the point of marketing, and business in general, is to stay ahead of the market. If you wait until something is outdated before you change it, you will always be behind the times... you need to be ahead of the curve.

As i've said, not fussed on the new logo. But neither am i fussed on the old. And if you did a poll that involved the old logo, the new logo, and a few altogether new designs (that is, completely new - not just rehashed like the Costa's attempt), you may get different results.

 

[whatboutbob]

Interesting discussion. I've seen much of the discussion over the past few years, and am still surprised by the backlash. I understand that people can decide not to like the new logo, and that's fair enough. I don't hate it, don't love it... but neither do i hate/love the old logo. I'm amazed though that Fitzroy supporters actually intend that the old lion was expected to last in perpetuity. That in 50/100/200 years time, they expect us to use an outdated, bland logo...

As i've said, not fussed on the new logo. But neither am i fussed on the old. And if you did a poll that involved the old logo, the new logo, and a few altogether new designs (that is, completely new - not just rehashed like the Costa's attempt), you may get different results.

For many, myself included, it is about more than 'not liking the new logo' or 'wanting the Fitzroy Lion in perpetuity' - it is about feeling we have (had) a say in the matter, as we feel is our right as Club members.

We feel the guernsey is part of the very soul of our Club; something that shouldn't be tinkered with lightly. When the Club's administration changes it without significant consultation with us, its members, then we effectively deem the decision void until that has been corrected. We've been waiting patiently for that opportunity from our (now not so) new Chairman and CEO, however our patience is running out.

 

[Brisroy Fitzbane]

... Is not a 'Fitzroy' issue.

I grew up barracking for the Brisbane Broncos. That code is an example of what happens when you go overboard with ridiculous WWF style marketing. They had the telephone number for "Wow Sight and Sound" displayed all over the front of their jumper in a massive white block for years. Marketing gone mad!! Not to forget the Super League saga, the fireworks, the stupid music, the galloping horses, the Hogsbreath cheerleaders and any other crap they can think of to cheapen the whole experience (and stay 'Infront' of the market). I realize that they are a club with plenty of cash which is good for them (though I suspect they would be just as well off regardless... They are just fortunate to have the fans up here).

As much as I hate to say it, Collingwood, Carlton, Essondon, Hawthorne, Richmond etc do it right. In 50/100/200 years I would be surprised to see any wholesale changes to their jumpers, and if so... I think the world will have gone mad also. Could you imagine Pies supporters tolerating a big cartoon magpie taking up the whole front of their home jumper??

A brand can gain invaluable strength the longer you leave it alone. Of course Nike and McDonalds use a myriad of ingenious marketing campaigns and ways of displaying themselves and then repositioning themselves in the market, but one thing will ALWAYS remain. Yes, minor tweaks can always be made... We're not talking about fashion here though, as others have pointed out, our jumper is our Flag! You would not expect to see the Australian flag change ever would you? (okay, bad example as I'm in the camp that thinks we should personally swap out the Union Jack for the Aboriginal colours). You catch my drift but. You wouldn't expect the American flag to change ever would you (aside from the odd tweak here or there to add or remove a couple of stars etc)

 

[The Brisbane Beast]

Some simple options:

1. Keep the original Lions emblem that has 11 VFL/AFL Premierships forever linked to it.
2. Neglect members and supporters opinions/feelings and employ an oversized cartoon Lions logo with nothing linked to it.
3. Be respectful. Allow Brisbane Lions members, supporters, players, management etc to have their say on how they want their club to be represented aesthetically, and let democracy decide.

 

[The Brisbane Beast]

I'm amazed though that Fitzroy supporters actually intend that the old lion was expected to last in perpetuity.

I'm sure that a few legal documents intended the same.

 

[GingerGreatness]

Noting this was sent through to the club a few hours before the B & F, I doubt it could have been properly considered until this week.

Here's hoping for some form of response this week.

Would like to think the club at least appreciates the hours put in to present the issue to them in the most thorough manner possible.

 

[spotthedog1]

For many, myself included, it is about more than 'not liking the new logo' or 'wanting the Fitzroy Lion in perpetuity' - it is about feeling we have (had) a say in the matter, as we feel is our right as Club members.

Fair enough. As i've said - i don't like the idea of "you can't touch this ever". I don't mind the idea of "we could've used more consultation"...

I can see both sides of the coin though. Customers/supporters rarely ever choose to update something, but usually end up liking something when it's forced on them. Paddlepop was obviously a bit of a stretch, just coz it's not a great design (I would call it a sideways step, not a forward step. It's less outdated, but less classy), but in just about anything, a popular vote will usually result in the incumbent. And i get the whole "members are owners" thing, but realistically, like any public company - the members vote the directors, and the directors make the decisions - you'd never imagine BHP taking a poll of it's shareholders to say "should we do an expansion of Olympic Dam?".

I'm sure that a few legal documents intended the same.

I've heard that debated. I don't know whether it's true (I've had people tell me both ways, but i haven't read the merger agreement, so don't know). If it's not - argument invalid. If it is - I think it was a silly thing for anyone to put in there, idiotic for Bears mgmt to agree to, and not realistic that Fitzroy mgmt should expect it would be followed long term (of course the logo would have to be updated eventually)...

And for those suggesting "if Collingwood and Coke can keep logos":
1. Collingwood's logo looks outdated. Does anyone on this board actually want to admit to liking the Pies logo?
2. Coke have changed their logo numerous times. Yes, the text hasn't changed a whole lot (though it certainly has changed a bit), and the text is usually the central bit, but still... they've updated, and adapted. As well as adding a completely separate logo just for the word "coke", instead of "coca-cola". But I just don't think that the Roy Lion has the 'timeless' quality that coke has.
3. They are just two of many logos, and just coz they don't a lot, doesn't mean we shouldn't. An interesting page on logo evolution: http://www.boredpanda.com/21-logo-evolutions-pepsi-cola-apple-nike-nokia/

 

[____]

(I've had people tell me both ways, but i haven't read the merger agreement, so don't know).

The merger agreement can be found here (In before Roylion).

 

[dlanod]

And i get the whole "members are owners" thing, but realistically, like any public company - the members vote the directors, and the directors make the decisions - you'd never imagine BHP taking a poll of it's shareholders to say "should we do an expansion of Olympic Dam?".

Not really a realistic comparison there.

 

[GingerGreatness]

but in just about anything, a popular vote will usually result in the incumbent.

Which is why the results of the survey are so powerful IMO. The incumbent split the group in terms of love it or hate it. The previous and potential new jumper did not.

While it would be nice if those that hate the current design "got over it" or "learned to like it", nobody can force them to, and the current board can't sit there and claim the club is "united, relentless & respectful" in the meantime.

It means too much to too many to at best, sweep it under the carpet, or at worst, say get stuffed.

 

[onya boot]

I am one who is fine with the new logo but appalled by the guernsey. I'm sure there is a substantial section of the BL community who feels the same.

Logos are pretty peripheral when it comes to the way fans feel about football clubs. Plenty of clubs whose (home) jumpers would fit into the classy/untouchable category had and continue to have ridiculous logos.

I think the two issues, while related, are separate

 

[Brisroy Fitzbane]

1. Collingwood's logo looks outdated. Does anyone on this board actually want to admit to liking the Pies logo?

Unfortunately I don't think you interpreted correctly what I wrote.
I was talking about Collingwood's JUMPER – not their logo.
Like Pepsi.. they were never blessed with a timeless logo (Pepsi's script was looking alright.. though it was an obvious rip-off.. or actually perhaps Coke ripped theirs off.. but either way.. Pepsi jumped ship).

We were fortunate though in my opinion (you obviously disagree on that point which is fine). Calton was also fortunate. I am sure Carlton has refined their monogram over time with new technology etc. Still it is a strong recognisable brand – and one which invokes pride by their supporters, and despise by their opponents.

2. Coke have changed their logo numerous times. Yes, the text hasn't changed a whole lot (though it certainly has changed a bit), and the text is usually the central bit, but still... they've updated, and adapted. As well as adding a completely separate logo just for the word "coke", instead of "coca-cola". But I just don't think that the Roy Lion has the 'timeless' quality that coke has.
3. They are just two of many logos, and just coz they don't a lot, doesn't mean we shouldn't. An interesting page on logo evolution:http://www.boredpanda.com/21-logo-evolutions-pepsi-cola-apple-nike-nokia/

I mentioned that McDonalds and Nike have 'repositioned' themselves many times before but one thing remains. Other examples in that link of instantly recognisable icons include SHELL, APPLE, PLAYBOY and VOLKSWAGON. All of these icons are strong enough to stand alone (without any logotype). This is where the Fitzroy Lion can be so powerful.

With regards to Coca-Cola.. interestingly, their logo is almost the same as it was on their first labels in the 1900's. Amazing. So strong. Naturally it was refined once better technologies came along (and I think the same could be done with our Lion also. For mine though, the Costa Sports version is still a little too refined. Still a damn sight better than what currently appears on the front of our jumper though. I have examined the Fitzroy Lion up close, and you can still tell that it was originally rendered by hand. The vector re-illustration was never slick. I am not opposed to minor tweaks).

There appears to be some division amongst Lions supporters over this issue doesn't there. The fact is.. the Fitzroy Lion graced our jumpers since 1957. Then, under the irresponsible iron fist of Bowers and co. It was taken from us, without giving us a say, When questioned about an impending change, it was denied. This was underhanded, and the wrong thing to do.