I think these games (or at least one of them) were televised by the ABC. I remember watching Dermie and Mark Whitzell playing in the Teal Cup on TV when I was growing up in the country.
Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records
- Thread starter Supermercado
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I think these games (or at least one of them) were televised by the ABC. I remember watching Dermie and Mark Whitzell playing in the Teal Cup on TV when I was growing up in the country.
I might have to just ask Dermott if I ever bump into him again. BT is adamant it was Punt Road.
So it may have been an earlier try-out match on the ground in preparation for Teal Cup.
Alas I have not kept up with all these changes, and sadly I can't see that changing any time soon.
Anyway, a reader has pointed out Nick Bloom appears to have played in the StK-Foo game of r8 1952, but doesn't appear in my records. So presumably somebody is on the list who didn't play.
www.saints.com.au
trove.nla.gov.au
Anyway, a reader has pointed out Nick Bloom appears to have played in the StK-Foo game of r8 1952, but doesn't appear in my records. So presumably somebody is on the list who didn't play.
Looking back: Saints in Gippsland
63 years ago St Kilda met Footscray for premiership points in Gippsland, club historian Russell Holmesby recalls.
RUGBY FANS CALLED OUR MEN 'HEARTLESS' - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 16 Jun 1952
Rugby followers who saw the Collingwood-Richmond game in Sydney were surprised at the "heartlessness[?] of the players. When a player goes down in rugby play is suspended until first aid men revive him. ...
trove.nla.gov.au
- May 23, 2010
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- Melbourne
A quick check on Trove lists Bloom in the Sporting Globe and does not list Allan Greenshields.Alas I have not kept up with all these changes, and sadly I can't see that changing any time soon.
Anyway, a reader has pointed out Nick Bloom appears to have played in the StK-Foo game of r8 1952, but doesn't appear in my records. So presumably somebody is on the list who didn't play.
Looking back: Saints in Gippsland
63 years ago St Kilda met Footscray for premiership points in Gippsland, club historian Russell Holmesby recalls.RUGBY FANS CALLED OUR MEN 'HEARTLESS' - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 16 Jun 1952
Rugby followers who saw the Collingwood-Richmond game in Sydney were surprised at the "heartlessness[?] of the players. When a player goes down in rugby play is suspended until first aid men revive him. ...
Saint back outwit Footscray - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 14 Jun 1952
YALLOURN, Sat.—St. Kilda broke with a convincing win over Fool the mud. The Saints checked the dogs' ruck strength by scoutinc ...
trove.nla.gov.au
injured Bulldogs recover quickly - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 11 Jun 1952
RAPID recovery of Footscray players injured at South Melbourne will allow the Bulldogs to field a strong side against St. Kilda, at Yallourn on Saturday. ...
trove.nla.gov.au
- May 23, 2010
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Round 2, 1897: Carlton's goalkickers are listed as: McPetrie 2, Cameron, O'utensil, and Sweetman.
The Argus differs and gives Sweetman 2 goals and none for Cameron.
trove.nla.gov.au
It also lists McKay with only 2 goals for South Melbourne, but no other goalkickers.
The Age also mentions that McPetrie and Sweetman each kicked a couple of goals.
trove.nla.gov.au
Table Talk also matches up, and credits McKay's "third" goal to Ramsden.
trove.nla.gov.au
The Argus differs and gives Sweetman 2 goals and none for Cameron.
IMPROVEMENT IN CARLTON. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 17 May 1897
The Carlton nov[?] fairly astonished their friends on Saturday by playing such a [?] game against South Melbourne that the latter were in dread of defeat until the bell rang, and breathed ...
trove.nla.gov.au
The Age also mentions that McPetrie and Sweetman each kicked a couple of goals.
THE FOOTBALL SEASON. - IMPROVEMENT IN THE GAME ESSONDON'S FIRST DEFEAT. THE LEAGUE CLUBS. - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 17 May 1897
The prompt action of the league in withdrawing permission to push behind was favorably commented upon on Saturday, when spectators on the various grounds found little to cavil at in the ...
trove.nla.gov.au
Sporting Notes and Notions. - Table Talk (Melbourne, Vic. : 1885 - 1939) - 21 May 1897
IN Turf matters, as in aught else in this maundane sphere, the antidote is at times equally as dangerous as the disease. The committee of the V.R.C. fancied they had ...
trove.nla.gov.au
- May 23, 2010
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Differences in goals kicked: 1925 season. AFL Tables + alternative listing in The Argus.
Round 1:
Footscray:
AFL Tables: Hopkins 3, Bayliss 2, Fraser 1, Mullens 1, Sampson 1
The Argus: Hopkins 2, Mullens 2
St. Kilda:
AFL Tables: De Garis 1, Mason 1, Shelton 1
The Argus: Gallagher 1, Shelton 0
Round 2:
Footscray:
AFL Tables: McHenry 3, Mullens 3, Bayliss 2, Fraser 1, Punch 1
The Argus: Mullens 2, Gibb 1
Round 3:
Footscray:
AFL Tables: Hopkins 2, Mullens 2, Bayliss 1, Garlick 1, Gibb 1, McHenry 1, Samson 1
The Argus: Garlick 2, Gibb 0
South Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Allison 3, Johnson 3, Reville 2, P. Scanlan 2, Harris 1, Nicholls 1
The Argus: P. Scanlan 3, Johnson 2
North Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Goonan 3, Clapson 2, Lindsay 2, Johnston 1
The Argus: Johnston 2, Clapson 1
St. Kilda:
AFL Tables: Bence 1, Day 1, Gallagher 1
The Argus: Phillips 1, Gallagher 0
Collingwood:
AFL Tables: Lawn 4, Clayden 2, Beasley 1, Collier 1, Libbis 1, Makeham 1, Webb 1
The Argus: Lawn 3, Makeham 2
Round 4:
Geelong:
AFL Tables: Warren 3, Hagger 2, Paterson 2, Todd 2, Fleming 1, Rankin 1, Rayson 1, Stevenson 1
The Argus: Paterson 3, Hagger 1
South Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Johnson 4, Joyce 2, Reville 2, Harris 1, Hogg 1
The Argus: Tandy 1, Hogg 0
Round 5:
Hawthorn:
AFL Tables: Woodford 3, Carbarns 2, Burke 1, Calwell 1, Lethlean 1, Pearson 1, Yeomans 1
The Argus: Williams 1, Calwell 0
Footscray:
AFL Tables: Bayliss 3, Croft 2, McCarthy 1, McHenry 1, Mullens 1
The Argus: Croft 3, McHenry 0
Round 6:
Footscray:
AFL Tables: Bayliss 2, Croft 2, Gibb 2, Fraser 1, McHenry 1, Samson 1
The Argus: Gibb 3, Bayliss 1
North Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Johnston 4, Giles 1, Lewis 1, Meeking 1, Shorten 1
The Argus: Lindsay 1, Giles 0
Hawthorn:
AFL Tables: Ennis 3, Hendrie 2, Burke 1, McCashney 1, Yeomans 1
The Argus: Yeomans 2, Burke 0
Collingwood:
AFL Tables: G. Coventry 6, Makeham 2, Stainsby 2, Libbis 1, Monohan 1, Murphy 1
The Argus: Stainsby 3, Makeham 1
Fitzroy:
AFL Tables: Moriarty 4, O'Rourke 4, Cockram 2, Chapman 1
The Argus: Cockram 3, O'Rourke 3
Round 7:
Fitzroy:
AFL Tables: O'Rourke 4, Millen 1, Williams 1
The Argus: O'Rourke 3, Wigraft 1
Hawthorn:
AFL Tables: Burke 2, Ennis 1, Hendrie 1, Price 1, Sellers 1, Yeoman 1
The Argus: Burke 1, Woodford 1
Round 8:
St. Kilda:
AFL Tables: Bence 2, Cubbins 2, Shelton 2, Armstrong 1, James 1, Lord 1, Scully 1
The Argus: Shelton 3, James 0
Richmond:
AFL Tables: J. Huggard 6, Barnett 1, Fraser 1, O'Halloran 1
The Argus: J. Huggard 5, Empey 1
Carlton:
AFL Tables: Dunn 5, Blackmore 2, Credlin 1, Rumney 1
The Argus: Charleston 1, Credlin 0
Essendon:
AFL Tables: Jenkins 3, Manger 3, Maher 2, Beckton 1, McCarthy 1
The Argus: Manger 4, McCarthy 0
Round 9:
Footscray:
AFL Tables: Bayliss 3, Hopkins 2, McCarthy 2, McDonald 2, Mullens 1, Neill 1, Nunan 1, Sands 1
The Argus: McCarthy 3, Mullens 2, McDonald 1, Neill 0
North Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Metcalf 4, Wood 3, Johnston 1, Lynch 1, Trevaskis 1
The Argus: Lindsay 1, Trevaskis 0
Round 10:
Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Moyes 3, Wittman 2, Davie 1, Deane 1, Donnelly 1
The Argus: Moyes 2, Davie 2
St. Kilda:
AFL Tables: Shelton 3, Bence 2, Mason 1, Morden 1, Phillips 1
The Argus: James 1, Phillips 0
Footscray:
AFL Tables: Croft 2, Hopkins 2, McCarthy 2, Clissold 1, McDonald 1, Nunan 1
The Argus: Bayliss 1, Nunan 0
Round 11:
Footscray:
AFL Tables: Hopkins 3, Punch 2, McHenry 1, Thompson 1
The Argus: Punch 3, Hopkins 2
Essendon:
AFL Tables: Beckton 2, Vosti 2, Hammond 1, Irwin 1, Manger 1, McCarthy 1, Stockdale 1
The Argus: Stockdale 2, Manger 0
Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Davie 6, Jones 2, Moyes 2, Wittman 2, Deane 1, Heinz 1
The Argus: Davie 5, Moyes 3
Round 12:
Collingwood:
AFL Tables: G. Coventry 9, Lawn 2, Baker 1, S. Coventry 1, L. Murphy 1, Tyson 1
The Argus: F. Murphy 1, L. Murphy 0
North Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Rutley 3, Wood 2, Johnston 1, Lindsay 1, Lynch 1, Trevaskis 1
The Argus: Nolan 1, Trevaskis 0
Richmond:
AFL Tables: Fraser 3, Millar 2, Morris 1
The Argus: Millar 1, Robinson 1
Round 13:
North Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Metcalf 3, Lewis 2, Lynch 2, Johnston 1, Lindsay 1, Nolan 1, Wood 1
The Argus: Metcalf 2, Britt 2, Wood 2, Lewis 0
Round 14:
Essendon:
AFL Tables: Maher 2, Beckton 1, Dick 1, Hammond 1, Irwin 1, May 1, Shorten 1, Vosti 1
The Argus: Shorten 2, Irwin 0
Round 15:
South Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Wimbridge 3, Allison 2, B. Browne 1
The Argus: M. Brown 1, B. Browne 0
This one should be investigated because I don't think Bill Browne played in this game at all. The match report in the Sporting Globe on August 29 does not have Browne in the line-up, but M. Brown is at half-forward. The missing player in the AFL Tables match report is Charlie Anderson, who played every game between Round 10 and 17 but supposedly didn't appear in this Round 15 game. The Argus also mentions Fred Fleiter playing in the ruck, but his name does not appear on the AFL Tables match report either.
Round 16:
Collingwood:
AFL Tables: G. Coventry 5, Harris 2, Stainsby 2, Libbis 1, L. Murphy 1, Tyson 1
The Argus: F. Murphy 2, Libbis 0, L. Murphy 0
Fitzroy:
AFL Tables: McCracken 5, Moriarty 3, Adams 2, Batchelor 1, Chapman 1, Hickey 1, Millen 1
The Argus: Costigan 1, Batchelor 0
South Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Johnson 3, Alexander 2, Allison 1, J. Scanlan 1, Stanbridge 1, Wimbridge 1
The Argus: Reville 1, Stanbridge 0
Carlton:
AFL Tables: Blackmore 3, Dunn 3, Outram 3, Davis 2, Beasy 1, Carter 1, Connell 1
The Argus: Davis 3, Outram 2
Round 17:
North Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Wood 2, Johnston 1, Shorten 1
The Argus: Shorten 2, Johnston 0
Semi Finals:
Collingwood:
AFL Tables: G. Coventry 5, Stainsby 2, S. Coventry 1, Lawn 1, Milburn 1, F. Murphy 1, Tyson 1
The Argus: Stainsby 1, Baker 1
Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Tulloh 5, Wittman 3, Davie 2, Dunbar 1, Heinz 1, Mollison 1, Taylor 1
The Argus: Heinz 2, Dunbar 0
Changes by team (new season total):
Carlton:
Charleston +1 (4)
Davis +1 (22)
Credlin -1 (1)
Outram -1 (11)
Collingwood:
F. Murphy +3 (11)
Baker +1 (13)
Lawn -1 (16)
Libbis -1 (9)
L. Murphy -2 (4)
Essendon:
Shorten +1 (7)
Stockdale +1 (3)
Irwin -1 (26)
McCarthy -1 (8)
Fitzroy:
Cockram +1 (10)
Costigan +1 (6)
Wigraft +1 (5)
Batchelor -1 (5)
O'Rourke -2 (16)
Footscray:
Croft +1 (11)
Garlick +1 (2)
Gibb +1 (9)
McCarthy +1 (12)
Mullens +1 (12)
Punch +1 (11)
McDonald -1 (12)
McHenry -1 (10)
Neill -1 (0)
Nunan -1 (3)
Hopkins -2 (38)
Geelong:
Paterson +1 (5)
Hagger -1 (77)
Hawthorn:
Williams +1 (1)
Woodford +1 (21)
Yeomans +1 (17)
Calwell -1 (1)
Burke -2 (7)
Melbourne:
Heinz +1 (6)
Dunbar -1 (3)
North Melbourne:
Britt +2 (3)
Lindsay +2 (9)
Nolan +1 (2)
Shorten +1 (3)
Wood +1 (28)
Clapson -1 (2)
Giles -1 (1)
Metcalf -1 (20)
Lewis -2 (5)
Trevaskis -2 (3)
Richmond:
Empey +1 (8)
Robinson +1 (6)
J. Huggard -1 (19)
Millar -1 (13)
St. Kilda:
Everything completely cancels out.
South Melbourne:
M. Brown +1 (2)
Reville +1 (13)
P. Scanlan +1 (5)
Tandy +1 (3)
B. Browne -1 (1)
Hogg -1 (1)
Johnson -1 (59)
Stanbridge -1 (0)
Be aware that no cross-checking with other newspapers has been done. This is just what I have collected from the Argus's match reports' goalkicker's. Some errors are made in these sections too: e.g. Lloyd Hagger is noted as kicking seven against Carlton in Round 16, but the goalkicker's list for Geelong puts him down with 8 (and Rayson 0). This contradicts the match report which mentions Rayson kicking a goal in the third quarter and Hagger "kicking seven goals" to bring his total to 67 for the season.
Round 1:
Footscray:
AFL Tables: Hopkins 3, Bayliss 2, Fraser 1, Mullens 1, Sampson 1
The Argus: Hopkins 2, Mullens 2
St. Kilda:
AFL Tables: De Garis 1, Mason 1, Shelton 1
The Argus: Gallagher 1, Shelton 0
Round 2:
Footscray:
AFL Tables: McHenry 3, Mullens 3, Bayliss 2, Fraser 1, Punch 1
The Argus: Mullens 2, Gibb 1
Round 3:
Footscray:
AFL Tables: Hopkins 2, Mullens 2, Bayliss 1, Garlick 1, Gibb 1, McHenry 1, Samson 1
The Argus: Garlick 2, Gibb 0
South Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Allison 3, Johnson 3, Reville 2, P. Scanlan 2, Harris 1, Nicholls 1
The Argus: P. Scanlan 3, Johnson 2
North Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Goonan 3, Clapson 2, Lindsay 2, Johnston 1
The Argus: Johnston 2, Clapson 1
St. Kilda:
AFL Tables: Bence 1, Day 1, Gallagher 1
The Argus: Phillips 1, Gallagher 0
Collingwood:
AFL Tables: Lawn 4, Clayden 2, Beasley 1, Collier 1, Libbis 1, Makeham 1, Webb 1
The Argus: Lawn 3, Makeham 2
Round 4:
Geelong:
AFL Tables: Warren 3, Hagger 2, Paterson 2, Todd 2, Fleming 1, Rankin 1, Rayson 1, Stevenson 1
The Argus: Paterson 3, Hagger 1
South Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Johnson 4, Joyce 2, Reville 2, Harris 1, Hogg 1
The Argus: Tandy 1, Hogg 0
Round 5:
Hawthorn:
AFL Tables: Woodford 3, Carbarns 2, Burke 1, Calwell 1, Lethlean 1, Pearson 1, Yeomans 1
The Argus: Williams 1, Calwell 0
Footscray:
AFL Tables: Bayliss 3, Croft 2, McCarthy 1, McHenry 1, Mullens 1
The Argus: Croft 3, McHenry 0
Round 6:
Footscray:
AFL Tables: Bayliss 2, Croft 2, Gibb 2, Fraser 1, McHenry 1, Samson 1
The Argus: Gibb 3, Bayliss 1
North Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Johnston 4, Giles 1, Lewis 1, Meeking 1, Shorten 1
The Argus: Lindsay 1, Giles 0
Hawthorn:
AFL Tables: Ennis 3, Hendrie 2, Burke 1, McCashney 1, Yeomans 1
The Argus: Yeomans 2, Burke 0
Collingwood:
AFL Tables: G. Coventry 6, Makeham 2, Stainsby 2, Libbis 1, Monohan 1, Murphy 1
The Argus: Stainsby 3, Makeham 1
Fitzroy:
AFL Tables: Moriarty 4, O'Rourke 4, Cockram 2, Chapman 1
The Argus: Cockram 3, O'Rourke 3
Round 7:
Fitzroy:
AFL Tables: O'Rourke 4, Millen 1, Williams 1
The Argus: O'Rourke 3, Wigraft 1
Hawthorn:
AFL Tables: Burke 2, Ennis 1, Hendrie 1, Price 1, Sellers 1, Yeoman 1
The Argus: Burke 1, Woodford 1
Round 8:
St. Kilda:
AFL Tables: Bence 2, Cubbins 2, Shelton 2, Armstrong 1, James 1, Lord 1, Scully 1
The Argus: Shelton 3, James 0
Richmond:
AFL Tables: J. Huggard 6, Barnett 1, Fraser 1, O'Halloran 1
The Argus: J. Huggard 5, Empey 1
Carlton:
AFL Tables: Dunn 5, Blackmore 2, Credlin 1, Rumney 1
The Argus: Charleston 1, Credlin 0
Essendon:
AFL Tables: Jenkins 3, Manger 3, Maher 2, Beckton 1, McCarthy 1
The Argus: Manger 4, McCarthy 0
Round 9:
Footscray:
AFL Tables: Bayliss 3, Hopkins 2, McCarthy 2, McDonald 2, Mullens 1, Neill 1, Nunan 1, Sands 1
The Argus: McCarthy 3, Mullens 2, McDonald 1, Neill 0
North Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Metcalf 4, Wood 3, Johnston 1, Lynch 1, Trevaskis 1
The Argus: Lindsay 1, Trevaskis 0
Round 10:
Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Moyes 3, Wittman 2, Davie 1, Deane 1, Donnelly 1
The Argus: Moyes 2, Davie 2
St. Kilda:
AFL Tables: Shelton 3, Bence 2, Mason 1, Morden 1, Phillips 1
The Argus: James 1, Phillips 0
Footscray:
AFL Tables: Croft 2, Hopkins 2, McCarthy 2, Clissold 1, McDonald 1, Nunan 1
The Argus: Bayliss 1, Nunan 0
Round 11:
Footscray:
AFL Tables: Hopkins 3, Punch 2, McHenry 1, Thompson 1
The Argus: Punch 3, Hopkins 2
Essendon:
AFL Tables: Beckton 2, Vosti 2, Hammond 1, Irwin 1, Manger 1, McCarthy 1, Stockdale 1
The Argus: Stockdale 2, Manger 0
Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Davie 6, Jones 2, Moyes 2, Wittman 2, Deane 1, Heinz 1
The Argus: Davie 5, Moyes 3
Round 12:
Collingwood:
AFL Tables: G. Coventry 9, Lawn 2, Baker 1, S. Coventry 1, L. Murphy 1, Tyson 1
The Argus: F. Murphy 1, L. Murphy 0
North Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Rutley 3, Wood 2, Johnston 1, Lindsay 1, Lynch 1, Trevaskis 1
The Argus: Nolan 1, Trevaskis 0
Richmond:
AFL Tables: Fraser 3, Millar 2, Morris 1
The Argus: Millar 1, Robinson 1
Round 13:
North Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Metcalf 3, Lewis 2, Lynch 2, Johnston 1, Lindsay 1, Nolan 1, Wood 1
The Argus: Metcalf 2, Britt 2, Wood 2, Lewis 0
Round 14:
Essendon:
AFL Tables: Maher 2, Beckton 1, Dick 1, Hammond 1, Irwin 1, May 1, Shorten 1, Vosti 1
The Argus: Shorten 2, Irwin 0
Round 15:
South Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Wimbridge 3, Allison 2, B. Browne 1
The Argus: M. Brown 1, B. Browne 0
This one should be investigated because I don't think Bill Browne played in this game at all. The match report in the Sporting Globe on August 29 does not have Browne in the line-up, but M. Brown is at half-forward. The missing player in the AFL Tables match report is Charlie Anderson, who played every game between Round 10 and 17 but supposedly didn't appear in this Round 15 game. The Argus also mentions Fred Fleiter playing in the ruck, but his name does not appear on the AFL Tables match report either.
Round 16:
Collingwood:
AFL Tables: G. Coventry 5, Harris 2, Stainsby 2, Libbis 1, L. Murphy 1, Tyson 1
The Argus: F. Murphy 2, Libbis 0, L. Murphy 0
Fitzroy:
AFL Tables: McCracken 5, Moriarty 3, Adams 2, Batchelor 1, Chapman 1, Hickey 1, Millen 1
The Argus: Costigan 1, Batchelor 0
South Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Johnson 3, Alexander 2, Allison 1, J. Scanlan 1, Stanbridge 1, Wimbridge 1
The Argus: Reville 1, Stanbridge 0
Carlton:
AFL Tables: Blackmore 3, Dunn 3, Outram 3, Davis 2, Beasy 1, Carter 1, Connell 1
The Argus: Davis 3, Outram 2
Round 17:
North Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Wood 2, Johnston 1, Shorten 1
The Argus: Shorten 2, Johnston 0
Semi Finals:
Collingwood:
AFL Tables: G. Coventry 5, Stainsby 2, S. Coventry 1, Lawn 1, Milburn 1, F. Murphy 1, Tyson 1
The Argus: Stainsby 1, Baker 1
Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Tulloh 5, Wittman 3, Davie 2, Dunbar 1, Heinz 1, Mollison 1, Taylor 1
The Argus: Heinz 2, Dunbar 0
Changes by team (new season total):
Carlton:
Charleston +1 (4)
Davis +1 (22)
Credlin -1 (1)
Outram -1 (11)
Collingwood:
F. Murphy +3 (11)
Baker +1 (13)
Lawn -1 (16)
Libbis -1 (9)
L. Murphy -2 (4)
Essendon:
Shorten +1 (7)
Stockdale +1 (3)
Irwin -1 (26)
McCarthy -1 (8)
Fitzroy:
Cockram +1 (10)
Costigan +1 (6)
Wigraft +1 (5)
Batchelor -1 (5)
O'Rourke -2 (16)
Footscray:
Croft +1 (11)
Garlick +1 (2)
Gibb +1 (9)
McCarthy +1 (12)
Mullens +1 (12)
Punch +1 (11)
McDonald -1 (12)
McHenry -1 (10)
Neill -1 (0)
Nunan -1 (3)
Hopkins -2 (38)
Geelong:
Paterson +1 (5)
Hagger -1 (77)
Hawthorn:
Williams +1 (1)
Woodford +1 (21)
Yeomans +1 (17)
Calwell -1 (1)
Burke -2 (7)
Melbourne:
Heinz +1 (6)
Dunbar -1 (3)
North Melbourne:
Britt +2 (3)
Lindsay +2 (9)
Nolan +1 (2)
Shorten +1 (3)
Wood +1 (28)
Clapson -1 (2)
Giles -1 (1)
Metcalf -1 (20)
Lewis -2 (5)
Trevaskis -2 (3)
Richmond:
Empey +1 (8)
Robinson +1 (6)
J. Huggard -1 (19)
Millar -1 (13)
St. Kilda:
Everything completely cancels out.
South Melbourne:
M. Brown +1 (2)
Reville +1 (13)
P. Scanlan +1 (5)
Tandy +1 (3)
B. Browne -1 (1)
Hogg -1 (1)
Johnson -1 (59)
Stanbridge -1 (0)
Be aware that no cross-checking with other newspapers has been done. This is just what I have collected from the Argus's match reports' goalkicker's. Some errors are made in these sections too: e.g. Lloyd Hagger is noted as kicking seven against Carlton in Round 16, but the goalkicker's list for Geelong puts him down with 8 (and Rayson 0). This contradicts the match report which mentions Rayson kicking a goal in the third quarter and Hagger "kicking seven goals" to bring his total to 67 for the season.
Last edited:
I've kept a track of all the updates etc on the spreadsheet Paul. There's even now a 2020 tab. So no rush, but theyre the new changes are up on the spreadsheetAlas I have not kept up with all these changes, and sadly I can't see that changing any time soon.
Anyway, a reader has pointed out Nick Bloom appears to have played in the StK-Foo game of r8 1952, but doesn't appear in my records. So presumably somebody is on the list who didn't play.
Looking back: Saints in Gippsland
63 years ago St Kilda met Footscray for premiership points in Gippsland, club historian Russell Holmesby recalls.RUGBY FANS CALLED OUR MEN 'HEARTLESS' - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 16 Jun 1952
Rugby followers who saw the Collingwood-Richmond game in Sydney were surprised at the "heartlessness[?] of the players. When a player goes down in rugby play is suspended until first aid men revive him. ...
- May 23, 2010
- 711
- 579
- AFL Club
- Melbourne
Differences in goals kicked: 1924 season. AFL Tables + alternative listing in The Argus.
Round 1:
St. Kilda:
AFL Tables: Cubbins 5, Officer 4, Grounds 2, James 1
The Argus: Cubbins 4, Archer 1
South Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Johnson 4, Condon 3, Tandy 3, Cazaly 2, Alexander 1
The Argus: Condon 2, Sutton 1
Round 4:
Carlton:
AFL Tables: Blackman 2, McLatchie 2, Toole 2, Trebilco 2, Clover 1, Davies 1, Kennedy 1
The Argus: McLatchie 3, Trebilco 1
Round 5:
South Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Allison 5, Alexander 2, Johnson 2, Matthews 1
The Argus: Allison 4, Johnson 3
St. Kilda:
AFL Tables: James 5, Phillips 4, Anderson 1, O'Rourke 1, Scales 1, Scully 1
The Argus: Phillips 3, Eicke 1
Geelong:
AFL Tables: Hagger 6, Pink 2, Fleming 1, Nicolson 1, Rankin 1
The Argus: Sharland 1, Stevenson 1, Pink 1, Nicolson 0
Round 6:
Richmond:
AFL Tables: Morris 5, Harley 1, Hayes 1, Reid 1, B. Smith 1
The Argus: Morris 6, B. Smith 0
Essendon:
AFL Tables: Stockdale 2, Sullivan 2, Beckton 1, Callahan 1, Shorten 1, Watt 1
The Argus: Shorten 2, Stockdale 1
Round 7:
St. Kilda:
AFL Tables: Grounds 4, Eicke 2, James 2, Moyes 2, Anderson 1, Phillips 1
The Argus: Phillips 2, Eicke 1
Round 8:
Richmond:
AFL Tables: Morris 5, Don 3, Rudolph 2, Harley 1, MacIsaac 1
The Argus: Morris 4, MacIsaac 2
Round 9:
South Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Johnson 3, Allison 1, Cazaly 1, Condon 1, H. Matthews 1
The Argus: H. Matthews 2, Allison 0
Collingwood:
AFL Tables: Baker 2, Chesswas 2, Beasley 1, Lawn 1, Makeham 1
The Argus: Lawn 2, Makeham 0
Essendon:
AFL Tables: Irwin 4, Jenkins 2, Callahan 1, Campbell 1, Maher 1, Shorten 1
The Argus: Jenkins 1, Beckton 1
Round 10:
South Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Cazaly 3, Brown 2, Johnson 2, Fleiter 1, O'Meara 1
The Argus: H. Matthews 1, Fleiter 0
St. Kilda
AFL Tables: Archer 2, James 2, Lucas 1, Moyes 1
The Argus: Gunnyon 1, Lucas 0
Round 11:
South Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Cazaly 2, Johnson 2, Brown 1, Fleiter 1, H. Matthews 1, O'Meara 1, P. Scanlan 1
The Argus: Condon 1, Johnson 1
Round 12:
Fitzroy:
AFL Tables: Moriarty 4, Fergie 2, Cockram 1, Cosgrave 1, Walker 1
The Argus: Moriarty 5, Cosgrave 0
Round 13:
Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Tulloh 2, A. Wilson 2, H. Dunbar 1, Mollison 1, Simmonds 1
The Argus: P. Wilson 2, A. Wilson 0
Carlton:
AFL Tables: Blackmore 4, Duncan 2, Trebilco 2, McLatchie 1
The Argus: Carter 1, McLatchie 0
Round 14:
Carlton:
AFL Tables: Carter 3, Blackmore 2, McLatchie 2, Toole 2, Duncan 1
The Argus: McLatchie 3, Carter 2
Round 16:
Fitzroy:
AFL Tables: Moriarty 8, Freake 4, Cockram 3, Hickey 1
The Argus: Cockram 2, Bryant 1
Round 17:
Richmond:
AFL Tables: Barnett 2, Hayes 2, MacIsaac 1, Rudolph 1, B. Smith 1, Valentine 1
The Argus: Morris 1, MacIsaac 0
Nothing different in the round robin playoff.
Changes by team (new season total):
Carlton:
McLatchie +1 (27)
Trebilco -1 (9)
Collingwood:
Lawn +1 (15)
Makeham -1 (12)
Essendon:
Beckton +1 (14)
Shorten +1 (13)
Jenkins -1 (49)
Stockdale -1 (23)
Fitzroy:
Moriarty +1 (83)
Bryant +1 (9)
Cockram -1 (20)
Cosgrave -1 (3)
Geelong:
Sharland +1 (9)
Stevenson +1 (2)
Nicolson -1 (6)
Pink -1 (13)
Melbourne:
P. Wilson +2 (3)
A. Wilson -2 (0)
Richmond:
Morris +1 (45)
B. Smith -1 (5)
St. Kilda:
Gunnyon +1 (2)
Archer +1 (11)
Cubbins -1 (7)
Lucas -1 (0)
South Melbourne:
H. Matthews +2 (14)
Sutton +1 (2)
Fleiter -1 (5)
Allison -2 (14)
If McLatchie's one goal addition is correct and verifiable, then that means McLatchie is tied with Alex Duncan for Carlton's top goalscorer in 1924.
Round 1:
St. Kilda:
AFL Tables: Cubbins 5, Officer 4, Grounds 2, James 1
The Argus: Cubbins 4, Archer 1
South Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Johnson 4, Condon 3, Tandy 3, Cazaly 2, Alexander 1
The Argus: Condon 2, Sutton 1
Round 4:
Carlton:
AFL Tables: Blackman 2, McLatchie 2, Toole 2, Trebilco 2, Clover 1, Davies 1, Kennedy 1
The Argus: McLatchie 3, Trebilco 1
Round 5:
South Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Allison 5, Alexander 2, Johnson 2, Matthews 1
The Argus: Allison 4, Johnson 3
St. Kilda:
AFL Tables: James 5, Phillips 4, Anderson 1, O'Rourke 1, Scales 1, Scully 1
The Argus: Phillips 3, Eicke 1
Geelong:
AFL Tables: Hagger 6, Pink 2, Fleming 1, Nicolson 1, Rankin 1
The Argus: Sharland 1, Stevenson 1, Pink 1, Nicolson 0
Round 6:
Richmond:
AFL Tables: Morris 5, Harley 1, Hayes 1, Reid 1, B. Smith 1
The Argus: Morris 6, B. Smith 0
Essendon:
AFL Tables: Stockdale 2, Sullivan 2, Beckton 1, Callahan 1, Shorten 1, Watt 1
The Argus: Shorten 2, Stockdale 1
Round 7:
St. Kilda:
AFL Tables: Grounds 4, Eicke 2, James 2, Moyes 2, Anderson 1, Phillips 1
The Argus: Phillips 2, Eicke 1
Round 8:
Richmond:
AFL Tables: Morris 5, Don 3, Rudolph 2, Harley 1, MacIsaac 1
The Argus: Morris 4, MacIsaac 2
Round 9:
South Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Johnson 3, Allison 1, Cazaly 1, Condon 1, H. Matthews 1
The Argus: H. Matthews 2, Allison 0
Collingwood:
AFL Tables: Baker 2, Chesswas 2, Beasley 1, Lawn 1, Makeham 1
The Argus: Lawn 2, Makeham 0
Essendon:
AFL Tables: Irwin 4, Jenkins 2, Callahan 1, Campbell 1, Maher 1, Shorten 1
The Argus: Jenkins 1, Beckton 1
Round 10:
South Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Cazaly 3, Brown 2, Johnson 2, Fleiter 1, O'Meara 1
The Argus: H. Matthews 1, Fleiter 0
St. Kilda
AFL Tables: Archer 2, James 2, Lucas 1, Moyes 1
The Argus: Gunnyon 1, Lucas 0
Round 11:
South Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Cazaly 2, Johnson 2, Brown 1, Fleiter 1, H. Matthews 1, O'Meara 1, P. Scanlan 1
The Argus: Condon 1, Johnson 1
Round 12:
Fitzroy:
AFL Tables: Moriarty 4, Fergie 2, Cockram 1, Cosgrave 1, Walker 1
The Argus: Moriarty 5, Cosgrave 0
Round 13:
Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Tulloh 2, A. Wilson 2, H. Dunbar 1, Mollison 1, Simmonds 1
The Argus: P. Wilson 2, A. Wilson 0
Carlton:
AFL Tables: Blackmore 4, Duncan 2, Trebilco 2, McLatchie 1
The Argus: Carter 1, McLatchie 0
Round 14:
Carlton:
AFL Tables: Carter 3, Blackmore 2, McLatchie 2, Toole 2, Duncan 1
The Argus: McLatchie 3, Carter 2
Round 16:
Fitzroy:
AFL Tables: Moriarty 8, Freake 4, Cockram 3, Hickey 1
The Argus: Cockram 2, Bryant 1
Round 17:
Richmond:
AFL Tables: Barnett 2, Hayes 2, MacIsaac 1, Rudolph 1, B. Smith 1, Valentine 1
The Argus: Morris 1, MacIsaac 0
Nothing different in the round robin playoff.
Changes by team (new season total):
Carlton:
McLatchie +1 (27)
Trebilco -1 (9)
Collingwood:
Lawn +1 (15)
Makeham -1 (12)
Essendon:
Beckton +1 (14)
Shorten +1 (13)
Jenkins -1 (49)
Stockdale -1 (23)
Fitzroy:
Moriarty +1 (83)
Bryant +1 (9)
Cockram -1 (20)
Cosgrave -1 (3)
Geelong:
Sharland +1 (9)
Stevenson +1 (2)
Nicolson -1 (6)
Pink -1 (13)
Melbourne:
P. Wilson +2 (3)
A. Wilson -2 (0)
Richmond:
Morris +1 (45)
B. Smith -1 (5)
St. Kilda:
Gunnyon +1 (2)
Archer +1 (11)
Cubbins -1 (7)
Lucas -1 (0)
South Melbourne:
H. Matthews +2 (14)
Sutton +1 (2)
Fleiter -1 (5)
Allison -2 (14)
If McLatchie's one goal addition is correct and verifiable, then that means McLatchie is tied with Alex Duncan for Carlton's top goalscorer in 1924.
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- Moderator
- #2,535
Nice work. How does this match up with other newspaper reports of the time? Is the Argus more detailed in its reports?
- May 23, 2010
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The Argus's match reports are pretty detailed.
The Age's match reports are shorter and don't list the goalkickers, making you have to read the article to find them and sometimes not even get all of them.
Sporting Globe is about the same as The Age.
The Herald, it seems, only reports up to half time before their Saturday edition is published. But it does include goalkickers up to halftime and a decent report of the game up to then.
So, it looks like The Argus has the best detailed reports.
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Differences in goals kicked: 1923 season. AFL Tables + alternative listing in The Argus.
Round 1:
Fitzroy:
AFL Tables: Freake 3, Parratt 3, Gale 2, Rattray 2, Carter 1
The Argus: Parratt 4, Rattray 1 (I had to read the whole report for this. They didn't include the goalkickers list)
Essendon:
AFL Tables: Stockdale 10, McCarthy 3, Beckton 1, Jenkins 1
The Argus: Stockdale 9, McCarthy 4 (I think it was already right. The Sporting Globe called this out, saying that the "pressmen" thought McCarthy had kicked the first goal of the day)
Round 4:
Carlton:
AFL Tables: Brew 2, McLatchie 2, Beasy 1, Duncan 1, Goonan 1, Greenhill 1, Pritchard 1
The Argus: Pringle 1, Greenhill 0 (this needed guess work because only four of Carlton's goals were listed: McLatchie 2, Brew 1, Goonan 1. After reading the match report, I had Pringle with 1, and goals missing for Beasy, Greenhill, and Brew. After checking other sources and with process of elimination, I'm sure Greenhill was not a goalscorer)
Round 5:
Essendon:
AFL Tables: Stockdale 3, Barker 1
The Argus: Jenkins 1, Barker 0
Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Tulloh 4, Shelton 2, Taylor 2, Chadwick 1, Corbett 1, Heinz 1, P. Wilson 1
The Argus: Heinz 2, Taylor 1
South Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Alexander 3, James 2, W. Matthews 2, Allison 1, Billett 1, Brown 1, P. Scanlan 1, Wood 1, Woodfield 1
The Argus: H. Matthews 2, W. Matthews 0 (W. Matthews did not play. The Argus confirms this: "South were without W. Matthews, Cazaly, Joyce and Hynes, who were replaced by Brown, James, McDonald, and F. Laird")
Round 6:
Essendon:
AFL Tables: Stockdale 4, McCarthy 3, Jenkins 2, Barker 1, Beckton 1, Watt 1
The Argus: Irwin 1, Laidlaw 1, McCarthy 1
Round 1:
Fitzroy:
AFL Tables: Freake 3, Parratt 3, Gale 2, Rattray 2, Carter 1
The Argus: Parratt 4, Rattray 1 (I had to read the whole report for this. They didn't include the goalkickers list)
Essendon:
AFL Tables: Stockdale 10, McCarthy 3, Beckton 1, Jenkins 1
The Argus: Stockdale 9, McCarthy 4 (I think it was already right. The Sporting Globe called this out, saying that the "pressmen" thought McCarthy had kicked the first goal of the day)
Round 4:
Carlton:
AFL Tables: Brew 2, McLatchie 2, Beasy 1, Duncan 1, Goonan 1, Greenhill 1, Pritchard 1
The Argus: Pringle 1, Greenhill 0 (this needed guess work because only four of Carlton's goals were listed: McLatchie 2, Brew 1, Goonan 1. After reading the match report, I had Pringle with 1, and goals missing for Beasy, Greenhill, and Brew. After checking other sources and with process of elimination, I'm sure Greenhill was not a goalscorer)
Round 5:
Essendon:
AFL Tables: Stockdale 3, Barker 1
The Argus: Jenkins 1, Barker 0
Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Tulloh 4, Shelton 2, Taylor 2, Chadwick 1, Corbett 1, Heinz 1, P. Wilson 1
The Argus: Heinz 2, Taylor 1
South Melbourne:
AFL Tables: Alexander 3, James 2, W. Matthews 2, Allison 1, Billett 1, Brown 1, P. Scanlan 1, Wood 1, Woodfield 1
The Argus: H. Matthews 2, W. Matthews 0 (W. Matthews did not play. The Argus confirms this: "South were without W. Matthews, Cazaly, Joyce and Hynes, who were replaced by Brown, James, McDonald, and F. Laird")
Round 6:
Essendon:
AFL Tables: Stockdale 4, McCarthy 3, Jenkins 2, Barker 1, Beckton 1, Watt 1
The Argus: Irwin 1, Laidlaw 1, McCarthy 1
- May 23, 2010
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I wouldn't say my stuff's conclusive, but I think it's a good starting point if anybody wants to cross-check the information with other sources (Essendon, Round 1, 1923) or go through the whole match report (Fitzroy, Round 1, 1923) to see if it matches up with the goalscorer's list.Jesus.. just when I thought I was making progress
The case of Wal and Herb Matthews, I'm 100% sure of.
The Record includes 'Ramsden' in the list of goal kickers, but not in the selected team. The report states that Minahan (O'Gorman) kicked South's first goal, but he isn't listed in the goal kickers:Round 2, 1897: Carlton's goalkickers are listed as: McPetrie 2, Cameron, O'utensil, and Sweetman.
The Argus differs and gives Sweetman 2 goals and none for Cameron.
It also lists McKay with only 2 goals for South Melbourne, but no other goalkickers.IMPROVEMENT IN CARLTON. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 17 May 1897
The Carlton nov[?] fairly astonished their friends on Saturday by playing such a [?] game against South Melbourne that the latter were in dread of defeat until the bell rang, and breathed ...
The Age also mentions that McPetrie and Sweetman each kicked a couple of goals.
Table Talk also matches up, and credits McKay's "third" goal to Ramsden.THE FOOTBALL SEASON. - IMPROVEMENT IN THE GAME ESSONDON'S FIRST DEFEAT. THE LEAGUE CLUBS. - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 17 May 1897
The prompt action of the league in withdrawing permission to push behind was favorably commented upon on Saturday, when spectators on the various grounds found little to cavil at in the ...
Sporting Notes and Notions. - Table Talk (Melbourne, Vic. : 1885 - 1939) - 21 May 1897
IN Turf matters, as in aught else in this maundane sphere, the antidote is at times equally as dangerous as the disease. The committee of the V.R.C. fancied they had ...
FOOTBALL. - SOUTH v. CARLTON. THE LOCAL TEAM WINS. - Record (Emerald Hill, Vic. : 1881 - 1954) - 22 May 1897
The weather was boisterous on Saturday last, and not at all pleasant for football, a strong north-west wind making matters uncomfortable for players ...
trove.nla.gov.au
In looking bit further into whether there was a 'Ramsden', I noticed that The Record names a player called 'irvine' in Round 3 1897 in South's selected side, but not Arch Swannie who is listed in the team in AFL Tables. There isn't a player called 'irvine' listed for South in the Encyclopedia.
trove.nla.gov.au
FOOTBALL. - SOUTH v. ST. KILDA. EASY WIN FOR SOUTH. - Record (Emerald Hill, Vic. : 1881 - 1954) - 29 May 1897
Queen's Birthday was quite a memorable day for the South Melbourne Football Club, who celebrated the event by engaging their neighbors, the "Saints," ...
trove.nla.gov.au
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Wow, that's interesting. I've had a look around for any other mentions of Irvine, but other than his name in The Herald for the same game against the Saints, there's nothing in 1897.In looking bit further into whether there was a 'Ramsden', I noticed that The Record names a player called 'irvine' in Round 3 1897 in South's selected side, but not Arch Swannie who is listed in the team in AFL Tables. There isn't a player called 'irvine' listed for South in the Encyclopedia.
FOOTBALL. - SOUTH v. ST. KILDA. EASY WIN FOR SOUTH. - Record (Emerald Hill, Vic. : 1881 - 1954) - 29 May 1897
Queen's Birthday was quite a memorable day for the South Melbourne Football Club, who celebrated the event by engaging their neighbors, the "Saints," ...
After some searching, I thought that it was a misprint and his real name was Irving.
THE VICTORIAN FOOTBALL SIDE IN 1892. - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 6 Aug 1937
Back row -- Geoff. Moriarty, Wal, Freame (Melb.), Coward (Footscray), Tracker Forbes (Ess.), Dinny McKay (S.M.), (--) Standing -- Jim Grace (Fitz.), Sam McMichael (F.), M. Grace, C. Cameron, Dolly Christie (Melb.), Poss Watson, Bill Buckley. ...
trove.nla.gov.au
PASSING OF AN OLD-TIME FOOTBALL STAR - Doug Irving Had Colorful Career in Two States - Record (Emerald Hill, Vic. : 1881 - 1954) - 9 Jan 1943
A shining light in senior football in the 90's, the death occurred at a private hospital in Pascoe Vale on Christmas Eve of Mr. Doug. Irving, at the age of 73. ...
trove.nla.gov.au
VICTORIAN FOOTBALL ASSOCIATION. - PERMITS TO PLAYERS. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 30 Apr 1896
The permit committee of the Victorian Football Association met last night to consider applications from players wishing to change clubs, Mr. W. H. Williams, the chairman, informed secretaries at the ...
trove.nla.gov.au
However, the records show that he moved to Western Australia before the 1897 season started.
THE LEAGUE CLUBS. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 1 May 1897
Melbourne and Fitzory tied for third place in larri.) Uni I ii tlilnl plan- III the premership matches last year, and both clubsi mulles hi.t nar, mil Imtli iltihs are commencing practice in earaest now. Melbourneitiiinnpraitlee In earnest inn 'tilliourue will be represented by a number of new...
trove.nla.gov.au
SPORTING NEWS. - THE TURF. RACE FIXTURES. WESTERN AUSTRALIA. - The West Australian (Perth, WA : 1879 - 1954) - 31 Jul 1897
July 31.—Nominations (I sov.) due for Western Australian Derby, to be run Saturday, January 1st, 1898. August 11,12,13.—Nullagine R.C. Initial ...
trove.nla.gov.au
FITZROY BREAK THE SPELL. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 26 May 1896
In their fourth attempt this season Fitzroy have scored a victory—but by the narrowest margin only, and after they had had, if anything, the worst of the game. In spite of the ...
trove.nla.gov.au
NOTES ON SATURDAY'S MATCHES. - THREE GOOD GAMES. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 18 May 1896
Football lifted itself a little above the average on Saturday, as it should have done seeing the calibre of the clubs engaged in three of the matches. At all these three the ...
trove.nla.gov.au
FOOTBALL GOSSIP. - Leader (Melbourne, Vic. : 1862 - 1918, 1935) - 3 Jun 1893
The second of the five months of the year over which the football season extends commences with this afternoon's matches, and only a couple of the baker's dozen of clubs competing for the ...
trove.nla.gov.au
But that means we're still stuck. I've found no mention of an Irvine or Irving getting a permit to play for South Melbourne in 1897, and we know Doug Irving moved to Western Australia to play for Fremantle before the VFL season has started.
For now, we have no idea who "Irvine" is. Could Doug's arrival in Fremantle have been delayed? Was it Swannie playing under a pseudonym? Someone pulled from the crowd to make up the numbers for South Melbourne? We may never know unless somebody digs deeper.
Snidely Whiplash
Debutant
Several historians met with Col Hutchisson and Steve Rodgers at AFL HQ over the off season to discuss game and goal stats and possible changes. There was a general methodology agreement after discussion about the respective accuracy or otherwise of some printed sources, with different publications having different periods where they were considered more accurate and other periods where this was not the case.
The general consensus was to pursue changes for games played stats where convincing evidence existed, and as long as the Club involved approved the change. It was also decided that individual goal scorer stats would not be pursued at this stage, as there was too much conflicting evidence and there was little confidence in using 1 news report over another. The Argus was not considered a consistent reliable source to be relied upon so using that source alone is not recommended.
Collingwood Forever has some minor goal scorer differences to official records due to use of Annual Reports as well as other evidence some time ago, however our Archives team has reviewed all available news reports for stats and maintain a table of potential changes which reflect our best judgement call subject to better evidence being identified and further discussions with AFL, should it be decided to pursue goal scorer stats in future.
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Logical decision. Without the camera, goalkickers and games played for a news article could only be relayed by whoever kept the stats, and the progress of the game would have to be written down as the game happened for a detailed report to be possible, so it makes sense slight differences would pop up through articles. I'd imagine verifying the goalkickers or players in pre-1911, when players didn't wear numbers, was all the more tedious for the journalist.
With the camera, we can watch everything again and fix what we missed. That process gave Gary Ablett Sr. an extra goal.
Snidely Whiplash
Debutant
Luckily pre 1911, goals were less frequent
Even in a news report, reporter drops his pencil in the media box, goal is scored, "Macca who kicked that?" Answer goes in the paper next day, might be right, might be wrong. Even when there were 4 sources saying one thing, we found several occurrences where they were wrong and had either been lazy, copying other reports including error, or had cited a brother, similar jumper number or bloke that looked similar. That is why we decided we could never be 100% so better off leaving until we had absolute confirmation. If you start with one change it would open pandora's box.
So in the meantime I wont place Connor's excellent research/posts on the spreadsheet.
However if there are mutiple newspaper sources showing a potential goal discrepancy , I will, for SR to look over at end of the year.
So *Paul* wont have to make any of Connor's changes, unless we find further confirmation. Cool?
However if there are mutiple newspaper sources showing a potential goal discrepancy , I will, for SR to look over at end of the year.
So *Paul* wont have to make any of Connor's changes, unless we find further confirmation. Cool?
Snidely Whiplash
Debutant
Ok, but just to clarify, Steve and Col are unlikely to look at them. Agreement was we would not look at newspaper A v Newspaper B type discrepancies in foreseeable future.
We have just saved all our research for future, if some other evidence comes to the fore.
We have just saved all our research for future, if some other evidence comes to the fore.
i don't know if this one has been raised before. The Wikipedia page for the former Rutherglen Football Club suggests that Johnny Jackson - South Melbourne (1901–1902; 1907) has been incorrectly identified. It suggests that he should be Joseph Louis Jackson "Joseph Louis Jackson". Find a Grave. Retrieved 24 May 2020.
Took me a while to work out what you meant.
This edit by "Justin Kelly" indicates that instead of Johnny being 9 February 1879 – 6 April 1939 he's actually 1876 - 1943.
Birth & Death regs are either:
1879 | 1154 | Jackson | John | William | Eccles Emma | Carlton |
1939 | 2873 | Jackson | John | Jackson William | Eccles Emma | Hampton | 60 | 1879 |
1876 | 4922 | Jackson | Joseph Louis | Henry Hope | Leseberg Elizabeth | Ru Th |
1943 | 20652 | Jackson | Joseph Louis | Jackson Henry Hope | Leseberg Elizabeth | Rutherglen | 67 | 1876 |
But is the 1907 player actually the same as the 1901-02 player? Maybe that's the issue. ie could 1879-1939 be the 1907 Jackson, 1876-1943 the 1901-1902 Jackson?
From 13 May 1907: "Jackson a promising player from Port Melbourne" doesn't sound like a 28/31 year old returning player. Other mentions of him as a "follower", which matched the 1902 guy. 1902 guy was linked to Rutherglen too. There are some Jacksons on Port's list around that time on the VFA Project, but not much more info, so unless we can find permits from South to Port and back to South, it's going to be hard to confirm. Having the surname Jackson, and the permit committee meetings being held at Young & Jacksons doesn't help! Here is a 1908 South to Port permit, that does refer to John.
The Port Melbourne all-time player list has three Jackson's on it: https://www.portmelbournefc.com.au/pmfc-player-list-1886-2019/
JACKSON 1899
JACKSON J JACK 1904
JACKSON J JOHN 1908
FOOTBALL - MELBOURNE FOOTBALL CLUB. - Leader (Melbourne, Vic. : 1862 - 1918, 1935) - 9 Mar 1907
A meeting of the members of the Melbourne Cricket Club was held in the Masonic Hall on Tuesday to receive the report of the football committee, and ...
trove.nla.gov.au
J. L. Jackson gets a few mentions here:
The star woodchopper was known as Lou Jackson: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/238451856
L. Jackson appears in a 1909 Rutherglen team photo here: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/176028449/20532763
The AFL Records have the South player as being 188cm/89kg, and this chap does look to be rather a decent size.
Lou Jackson played for Rutherglen on 15 June 1907, the same day that Johnny Jackson played for South Melbourne: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/109025877
I think there has to be a very strong chance that the 1901-02 player is not the 1907 player! J. L. "Lou" Jackson must have come to town to play in 1901-02, then headed back north to stay, while John Jackson came from just down the road to play for South in 1907, and went back to Port Melbourne a year later.
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