Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

^Thanks Oliver. You guys don't mess around!

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Claude Rowe (NM) was the younger brother of Joe Rowe mentioned above
His date of death is incorrectly recorded in football records as 26/09/1974

Vic BDM records show his death was recorded in 1974

...but Springvale Cemetery record shows burial date was 4 October 1973 - there must have been some delay in registering his death
Looking on Ancestry, I found his death recorded in his WWII service record


Summary: Update date of death for Claude Rowe from 26/09/1974 to 29/09/1973

FYI: Oliver Gigacz - af.com is missing family relationship for Claude/Joe Rowe as well

 

[35Daicos]

I'm revisiting an old case, after seeing this in the Rd. 4 Football Record, though I don't really have anything new to add!:

AustralianFootball.com has 4 March 1914 as well. The Encyclopedia does also.

AFL Tables has 4 March 1913.

Wikipedia has the same:


Tigerland Archive has:

Army records:



Why they have him as Roy William in the Football Record is a mystery, it does seem to be wrong, so perhaps it's just a simple mistake? We can see he did call himself William (at least when enlisting), but I imagine Roger should still be his official first name. A Roy William Hearn died in Victoria in 1978 but the parents names do not match the ones we're looking for.

This topic has been discussed on another thread, and rbartlett posted this quite some time back:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Several Ancestry trees say Roger Musgrove Hearn died in Victoria in 1974, but give no date, and it's hard to know where they got that from.

 

[rbartlett]

I'm revisiting an old case, after seeing this in the Rd. 4 Football Record, though I don't really have anything new to add!:
View attachment 1370387
AustralianFootball.com has 4 March 1914 as well. The Encyclopedia does also.

AFL Tables has 4 March 1913.

Wikipedia has the same:
View attachment 1370402

Tigerland Archive has:
View attachment 1370396
Army records:
View attachment 1370859

View attachment 1370390
Why they have him as Roy William in the Football Record is a mystery, it does seem to be wrong, so perhaps it's just a simple mistake? We can see he did call himself William (at least when enlisting), but I imagine Roger should still be his official first name. A Roy William Hearn died in Victoria in 1978 but the parents names do not match the ones we're looking for.

This topic has been discussed on another thread, and rbartlett posted this quite some time back:
View attachment 1370872
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Several Ancestry trees say Roger Musgrove Hearn died in Victoria in 1974, but give no date, and it's hard to know where they got that from.

Regarding Hearn:

How about we make an assumption that Rodgers research on this may be incorrect.
Let's build his story up from the start again using newspapers just to make sure we are searching for the correct name firstly

I notice this in 1934 Ouyen, that said he had a brother "Mike" who played with him in the South Ballarat team. So does the guy we are searching for have a brother as well (obviously Mike being a nickname)

William Hearn is pictured here it seems in 1934 South Ballarat Team Photo. (there's an M Hearn i the team photo too)
Country Football-- Horsham Defeated Sth Ballarat at Ballarat - Weekly Times (Melbourne, Vic. : 1869 - 1954) - 8 Sep 1934

And he's here in 1932 Team Photo (he's the balding guy front row)

Country Football --South Ballarat Defeat Golden Point at Ballarat - Weekly Times (Melbourne, Vic. : 1869 - 1954) - 16 Jul 1932

SOUTH BALLARAT. Winners. (Left to right, back row)--C. Wall. Torysy, Green, Dwyer, Taylor, Whiting, Mitchell. W. Wall. Greening. Maloney. (Front row)--Trevor. Williams. Pitchford. Healey (capt.). Hearn, Perks, Gluyas, Keys GOLDEN POINT. (Left to right, back row)--Bell, Hill. Daifer. Trewin...

trove.nla.gov.au

 

[35Daicos]

Regarding Hearn:

How about we make an assumption that Rodgers research on this may be incorrect.
Let's build his story up from the start again using newspapers just to make sure we are searching for the correct name firstly

I notice this in 1934 Ouyen, that said he had a brother "Mike" who played with him in the South Ballarat team. So does the guy we are searching for have a brother as well (obviously Mike being a nickname)View attachment 1374871

William Hearn is pictured here it seems in 1934 South Ballarat Team Photo. (there's an M Hearn i the team photo too)
Country Football-- Horsham Defeated Sth Ballarat at Ballarat - Weekly Times (Melbourne, Vic. : 1869 - 1954) - 8 Sep 1934

And he's here in 1932 Team Photo (he's the balding guy front row)

Country Football --South Ballarat Defeat Golden Point at Ballarat - Weekly Times (Melbourne, Vic. : 1869 - 1954) - 16 Jul 1932

SOUTH BALLARAT. Winners. (Left to right, back row)--C. Wall. Torysy, Green, Dwyer, Taylor, Whiting, Mitchell. W. Wall. Greening. Maloney. (Front row)--Trevor. Williams. Pitchford. Healey (capt.). Hearn, Perks, Gluyas, Keys GOLDEN POINT. (Left to right, back row)--Bell, Hill. Daifer. Trewin...

trove.nla.gov.au

Roger Musgrove "Bill" Hearn is meant to be the player, and this should be all the siblings:


I think Donald (born 1907) would have to be a likely candidate, as the two boys born in 1918 were probably too young. "Mike" Hearn was coaching in 1936, so is likely to have been an older type.
Here's a South Ballarat team photo from 1931: Country Football--South Ballarat Defeat Maryborough, at Ballarat - Weekly Times (Melbourne, Vic. : 1869 - 1954) - 13 Jun 1931
There's D. Hearn (the Hearn from the 1932 photo) and N. Hearn (who looks to be even older). Maybe there was another brother, then? D. Hearn is certainly in the 1934 photo, but it's not clear whether they are listed in some sort of order or not!

 

[35Daicos]

Ah, looks like his Wikipedia page has the answer!:

Leslie Mannix was apparently "Mike". It's probably Donald in the 1932 photo (and others), since "Bill" apparently played for another team that year:

Here's D. Hearn and N. Hearn from 1931:

N. Hearn does look like he may be older than the other one. Looking at the bit below this, that's likely to be Norman.

This Ancestry tree shows there were plenty more kids, so I left a few out earlier!:

The 1934 photo only adds to the confusion, since it's meant to have M. Hearn and W. Hearn, and they should probably be "Bill" and "Mike", yet this fellow is there, and he sure looks like the D. Hearn from another photo!:

Mike should only be c. 16 at the time. This is Norman Arthur (born 1904), and I'm pretty sure that is the N. Hearn in the 1931 photo:

 

[Bandit55]

Ah, looks like his Wikipedia page has the answer!:
View attachment 1374960
Leslie Mannix was apparently "Mike". It's probably Donald in the 1932 photo (and others), since "Bill" apparently played for another team that year:
View attachment 1374964
Here's D. Hearn and N. Hearn from 1931:
View attachment 1374969
N. Hearn does look like he may be older than the other one. Looking at the bit below this, that's likely to be Norman.

This Ancestry tree shows there were plenty more kids, so I left a few out earlier!:
View attachment 1374972

I think there are articles on Trove re: RW Hearne being in trouble with the law in Ballarat.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[35Daicos]

Regarding Hearn:

How about we make an assumption that Rodgers research on this may be incorrect.
Let's build his story up from the start again using newspapers just to make sure we are searching for the correct name firstly

I notice this in 1934 Ouyen, that said he had a brother "Mike" who played with him in the South Ballarat team. So does the guy we are searching for have a brother as well (obviously Mike being a nickname)View attachment 1374871

William Hearn is pictured here it seems in 1934 South Ballarat Team Photo. (there's an M Hearn i the team photo too)
Country Football-- Horsham Defeated Sth Ballarat at Ballarat - Weekly Times (Melbourne, Vic. : 1869 - 1954) - 8 Sep 1934

And he's here in 1932 Team Photo (he's the balding guy front row)

Country Football --South Ballarat Defeat Golden Point at Ballarat - Weekly Times (Melbourne, Vic. : 1869 - 1954) - 16 Jul 1932

SOUTH BALLARAT. Winners. (Left to right, back row)--C. Wall. Torysy, Green, Dwyer, Taylor, Whiting, Mitchell. W. Wall. Greening. Maloney. (Front row)--Trevor. Williams. Pitchford. Healey (capt.). Hearn, Perks, Gluyas, Keys GOLDEN POINT. (Left to right, back row)--Bell, Hill. Daifer. Trewin...

trove.nla.gov.au

This doesn't really affect anything too much, but it makes me think "Mike" is not Leslie Mannix Hearn as the Wikipedia page suggests, but one of the older boys, and very likely Donald:

This is not talking about a young player, but one who has been around for a while!

Then there's this!:

It seems reasonable that he could be Mike! "Mike" was coaching Minyip in 1936, and Leslie Mannix would have been 17-18 that year, so that always seemed unlikely:


At 14-15 Leslie Mannix surely wouldn't have been the captain?!

The comment in the 1934 article you included suggests Mike had been chased by League clubs for years, and at c. 15-16 at the time that also seems unlikely. Donald almost certainly was "Mike"!

 

[rbartlett]

This doesn't really affect anything too much, but it makes me think "Mike" is not Leslie Mannix Hearn as the Wikipedia page suggests, but one of the older boys, and very likely Donald:
View attachment 1375329
This is not talking about a young player, but one who has been around for a while!

Then there's this!:
View attachment 1375366
It seems reasonable that he could be Mike! "Mike" was coaching Minyip in 1936, and Leslie Mannix would have been 17-18 that year, so that always seemed unlikely:
View attachment 1375378
View attachment 1375395
At 14-15 Leslie Mannix surely wouldn't have been the captain?!

The comment in the 1934 article you included suggests Mike had been chased by League clubs for years, and at c. 15-16 at the time that also seems unlikely. Donald almost certainly was "Mike"!

Yes I agree that Mike would be Donald Mike Hearn. Not uncommon for players to be called by their middle name. (ie: Des Rowe, Roy Wright)

 

[35Daicos]

Yes I agree that Mike would be Donald Mike Hearn. Not uncommon for players to be called by their middle name. (ie: Des Rowe, Roy Wright)

It looks like he tried out at Hawthorn in the 1934 pre-season, while Bill went to Richmond (but ultimately played with South Ballarat). As well as Bill Hearn (obviously!), two other 1934 South Ballarat players in Rice and Torpy were cleared to Richmond in 1935 (you may well know that).

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Yes I agree that Mike would be Donald Mike Hearn. Not uncommon for players to be called by their middle name. (ie: Des Rowe, Roy Wright)

Havel Rowe.
Wally Beckwith.
Billy Brownless.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Joe Murdoch another.

I believe he was Arthur Joe Murdoch.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Joe Murdoch another.

I believe he was Arthur Joe Murdoch.

I have over 800 in my database of about 10,500 players where the known name is based on second/third given names... was very common a hundred years ago - the first few are
Jim Abernethy
Jim Adamson
Ivor Aldridge
Gordon Allard
Roy Allen
Bob Allen
Jim Allen
Stan Alves
Ramsay Anderson
Stan Anderson
Bruce Anderson b1895
Bruce Anderson b1907
Bruce Andrew
Andy Angwin
Jack Arbrew

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Robert David "Roy" Adam (St Kilda, Melbourne) has date of death recorded as 3 Nov 1958 in football records.
However death notice from his family in The Age on 5 Nov lists death date as 4 Nov 1958.

 

[rbartlett]

FYI
1902, 1903, 1923, and 1924 Richmond Guardian issues are now digitised and uploaded to TROVE

 

[Bandit55]

It all seems clear that Roger Musgrove Hearn is 'Bill' Hearn. This article refers to him as Roger (Bill):

SIX MONTHS' GAOL FOR MINYIP FOOTBALLER. - The Horsham Times (Vic. : 1882 - 1954) - 8 Sep 1939

He was on the Electoral Roll in Richmond Central in 1936:

 

[RedmanWasHere]

A little bugbear of mine.

Tonight, Tom Lynch was claimed as the 100th player in VFL/AFL history to 400 league goals.

Technically, he's the 101st as Cliff Rankin was originally on 400 league goals until the research you guys did uncovered an accidental added goal to Cliff's tally.

Earlier in the year, Jack Gunston

19

Jack Gunston

Age

34

Ht

193cm

Wt

86kg

Pos.

Fwd

Career

Season

Last 5

D

15.5

4star

K

10.5

4star

HB

5.0

4star

M

5.7

5star

T

2.2

4star

G

1.9

5star

D

10.6

3star

K

8.0

3star

HB

2.6

2star

M

4.3

4star

T

1.7

3star

G

1.6

5star

D

11.2

3star

K

7.0

3star

HB

4.2

4star

M

3.2

4star

T

2.6

4star

G

0.6

3star

was claimed as the 99th player.

He's really the 100th player.

Sorry for being nit-picky but it needs to be said.

Swampy got surprisingly stroppy over this.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Correct me if wrong but Gunston was the first VFL/AFL player to 400 league goals since the change in Cliff's total.

 

[35Daicos]

The DOD for Billy Spears is out on Wikipedia: Billy Spears | Wikiwand


Blueseum has the same date:

The 20th was the interment date. He died on the 18th:

As you can see above, he also served in the Boer War.

blueycarlton
You may want to look into this:

Spiers is definitely meant to be Billy Spears. The papers got it wrong very often with Spear, Spears and Spiers all getting a run!

His father was Frank:

Blueseum has this chap: Blueseum - History of the Carlton Football Club | Frank Spear

It seems quite likely he could be the father of Billy. This is the death notice for the father of Billie (called Willie here):

If he was born c. 1846 he was getting on a bit by 1880. It does cause confusion with Spear/Spears, and it seems certain Carlton did have Fred Spear playing around the same time.

 

[ThePope]

A little bugbear of mine.

Tonight, Tom Lynch was claimed as the 100th player in VFL/AFL history to 400 league goals.

Technically, he's the 101st as Cliff Rankin was originally on 400 league goals until the research you guys did uncovered an accidental added goal to Cliff's tally.

Earlier in the year, Jack Gunston was claimed as the 99th player.

He's really the 100th player.

Sorry for being nit-picky but it needs to be said.

Swampy got surprisingly stroppy over this.

Swamp blocked me after I told him that Marinoff had reached her 1000th disposal before 3/4 time, as that's what FoxFooty told me, whilst his count said it was just after (or vice versa can't recall exactly). Definitely doesn't ever believe that he can be wrong.

Like his "births on this day" stats. Given how many errors we've found here, let alone the unknown birthdays, he never includes a "of the known players" disclaimer. He's got better at adding "since 2000" etc for the more Champion Data like stats to avoid people bringing up pre 90s footballers like Diesel etc for most somethings in a game.

 

[Oliver G]

Swamp blocked me after I told him that Marinoff had reached her 1000th disposal before 3/4 time, as that's what FoxFooty told me, whilst his count said it was just after (or vice versa can't recall exactly). Definitely doesn't ever believe that he can be wrong.

Like his "births on this day" stats. Given how many errors we've found here, let alone the unknown birthdays, he never includes a "of the known players" disclaimer. He's got better at adding "since 2000" etc for the more Champion Data like stats to avoid people bringing up pre 90s footballers like Diesel etc for most somethings in a game.

Yep, he's blocked me as well. I've never questioned any of his posts personally but it seems if you post anything remotely similar he blocks you.

He even reached out to me last year via DM saying I had the wrong number of total AFLW players. I double-checked his numbers and in fact he was the one with the error, counting Akec Makur-Chuot as two separate players (one for Fremantle and one for Richmond). Never got a thank you.

You would think that getting the correct information out there would be pretty much the top priority for anyone posting numbers to 30k followers who rarely have a way to fact check. You'd also think the more people posting stats the better especially for the women's game but his ego apparently overrules everything which is a shame.

P.S. The whole Marinoff 1000th disposal caused some major issues with AFLW stats collectors. Cutting a long story short the AFL API never got the final update on a 2017 match where Marinoff was credited with an extra disposal in the review. So anyone using the stats page on the AFLW website was always one behind what was officially in the records. If you dig a little deeper in the API you can get the correct numbers but it certainly isn't easy. Alex Saundry was the commenter that kept reminding the audience of the 1,000th disposal which was actually the 1,001st but she was getting the numbers from the AFLW website so you can totally understand why she thought it would be the 1,000th.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Getting off track a bit more, if any of you are on Facebook and statistical posts/comments/graphics come up, if you see "since 1965" posted a fair bit, that's likely to be me.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Swampy is good but he's a lot more uppity than say InsightLane, Footballistics, Tony Corke and Josh Kay.

Anyway, back to Roger Musgrove "Bill" Hearn and co.

 

[rbartlett]

Rankin goal change was approved by AFL in Aug 2020.
Our wiki guy needs to update Rankins WIKI profile as it still says 400 goals

btw RedmanWasHere , its not wrong to say that Lynch is 100th to 400 goals is it. Because Rankin lost a goal in Aug last year.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Rankin goal change was approved by AFL in Aug 2020.
Our wiki guy needs to update Rankins WIKI profile as it still says 400 goals

btw RedmanWasHere , its not wrong to say that Lynch is 100th to 400 goals is it. Because Rankin lost a goal in Aug last year.

On face value, it's not wrong.

For truth sake, it's best to be as accurate as possible.