Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

Speaking of Spud, how is he related to Des Tuddenham?

Is Spud's mum Des' sister?

And, with James Frawley being Spud's nephew, wonder if that makes him Des' grandson.

I wasn't aware of that family connection. This article simply says that Tuddenham is Danny Frawley's uncle. That's about all I can find:-

http://www.theage.com.au/news/rfnew...ftheearth-yarns/2009/11/13/1258043793053.html

Frawley was recruited to East Ballarat, in a keener competition, where he played under another uncle, Des Tuddenham.

 

[Gibbsy]

1928
Jim Money (Geel)
Vince Driver (Melb)

No issues here - no countback was in use so the players tied and Gardiner presented two medals

-------------------

1930
Max Kelly (Geel)
Sel Baker (Rich)

As with 1928, no countback, players tied and Gardiner presented two medals

-------------------

1932
Dick Logan (Haw)
Hel Davidson (Melb)

Logan won because he played less games (10). Davidson finished 2nd because he played in all but four matches (Gippsland Times 12-9-1932, p.6)

- Retrospective medal not awarded in 1992 to Davidson - should have been

-------------------

1933
'Tich' Utting (Haw)
Bill Findlay (Foot)
Hel Davidson (Melb)

Utting won on countback (Utting received four 1sts, Findlay received three, Davidson received one)

- Retrospective medal not awarded in 1992 to Findlay - should have been
- Retrospective medal not awarded in 1992 to Davidson - should have been

-------------------

1950
Doug Davies (Geel)
Jack O'Halloran (Ess)

Davies won on countback (three 1sts to one)

- Retrospective medal was awarded to O'Halloran in 1992.

1951
Neil Doolan (NM) was the sole winner

The AFL website incorrectly has O'Halloran sharing the award in 1951 instead of 1950:

View attachment 311869

NOTE - the annual AFL Stats book correctly lists O'Halloran and Davies sharing the award in 1950 with Doolan the sole winner in 1951

------------------

1958
John Fisher (Haw)
Chris Pavlou (Carl)

Fisher won on countback (three 1sts to two)

- Retrospective medal not awarded in 1992 to Pavlou - should have been

------------------

1970
Mike Redenbach (NM)
Paul Callery (Melb)

Redenbach won on a countback (five 1sts to four)

- Retrospective medal was awarded to Callery in 1992.

------------------

1971
Bruce Brown (Melb) was first on 12 votes (Bob Heard (Coll) was 2nd on 11 votes)

1977
Darryl Schimmelbusch (NM)
Bob Heard (Rich)

Heard lost on a countback (both had five 1st votes but Schimma won due to four 2nd votes to Heard's three)

The AFL website/annual stats book incorrectly says retrospective medals were awarded for 1950, 1970 and 1971

The AFL website and annual stats book incorrectly have Brown and Heard tied in 1971 with Schimma the sole winner in 1977

View attachment 311868

--------------------

1981
Darryl Vernon (Rich)
Malcolm Reed (Geel)

Vernon won on a countback (five 1sts to four)

A retrospective medal was awarded to Reed a week after when the VFL decided to bring the Gardiner Medal into line with the now countback-free Brownlow Medal.

The AFL website makes no mention of this, simply showing the 1981 medallists as joint winners

View attachment 311873


View attachment 311874

Another one for the Gardiner Medal archives:

1992 saw Peter Filandia record what would have been a runaway victory by seven votes, but he was ruled ineligible due to a suspension he picked up during the year. I don't think I've ever seen this mentioned in any lists and it seems the fact had been lost in the chapters of time.

 

[the croucher]

Following on from Gibbsy's posts above, in the GARDINER MEDAL from 1926 to 1981 there were 12 ties or countbacks, some are clear-cut and others have some questions around them:

1926
Alby Jacobson (SM)
Roy James (Ess)

Our joint research has revealed no mention in any contemporary sources of James winning the award, it all points to Jacobson being the sole winner:

View attachment 311860 View attachment 311861 View attachment 311862 View attachment 311863 View attachment 311864

But then this appears in a 2008 article in The Age, profiling Barry James, the son of Roy:

View attachment 311865

http://www.theage.com.au/news/horse...1212259008374.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap2

So James apparently did win the Gardiner Medal, but why was there no mention of that at the time?

I'm not convinced that James won the Gardiner Medal at all.
Nowhere in this thread is there a source cited which indicates that he did...apart from that 2008 article...

He is supposed to have played with Essendon in 1926, and I therefore presume that he is the James mentioned in this team list as published in the Geelong Advertiser issue of Tuesday 8 June that year:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/232263195

 

[35Daicos]

I'm not convinced that James won the Gardiner Medal at all.
Nowhere in this thread is there a source cited which indicates that he did...apart from that 2008 article...

He is supposed to have played with Essendon in 1926, and I therefore presume that he is the James mentioned in this team list as published in the Geelong Advertiser issue of Tuesday 8 June that year:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/232263195

It's certainly a strange one! One other mention of it that I found was in the Football Record (2004 Rd. 7 page 60 - the wrong club is named for James):-

Anita Frawley:
Growing up in the country, it was going to the local footy, car parked around the fence and tooting the horn every time a goal was kicked. My family was heavily into football – my grandfather (Roy James, playing for South Melbourne in 1926) won the first Gardiner Medal (best and fairest in the VFL reserves).

 

[the croucher]

Well, I've just found my copy of the 1968 Footy Annual and R James (Essendon) is listed as joint winner of the 1926 Gardiner Medal !

This story gets more and more puzzling. If he did win the award that year, it is extraordinary that the contemporary papers (seen via Trove) discuss Jacobson as sole winner and James is not mentioned at all. What a pity the cuts to National Library have happened this year. Seems to have delayed the loading of The Herald and The Sun. Will be interesting to see what they published at the time.

Following up a note on the Demonwiki site, by the way, it appears that Roy may not have been the original given name for the Melbourne/Essendon player, but he may have been officially registered as Melville Elroy (or possibly Leroy/Le Roy) James. The latter combination does appear in a 1927 electoral roll with an address in or near Essendon. I'm hedging my bets about this though, simply because some websites give death date for Roy James as 20 Oct 1975, but the registered death year for Melville E James on the Vic BDM's site is 1976. Seems unusual for an October death not to be registered until the next year, but I guess circumstances change case-by-case and may delay it sometimes.

 

[35Daicos]

Well, I've just found my copy of the 1968 Footy Annual and R James (Essendon) is listed as joint winner of the 1926 Gardiner Medal !

This story gets more and more puzzling. If he did win the award that year, it is extraordinary that the contemporary papers (seen via Trove) discuss Jacobson as sole winner and James is not mentioned at all. What a pity the cuts to National Library have happened this year. Seems to have delayed the loading of The Herald and The Sun. Will be interesting to see what they published at the time.

Following up a note on the Demonwiki site, by the way, it appears that Roy may not have been the original given name for the Melbourne/Essendon player, but he may have been officially registered as Melville Elroy (or possibly Leroy/Le Roy) James. The latter combination does appear in a 1927 electoral roll with an address in or near Essendon. I'm hedging my bets about this though, simply because some websites give death date for Roy James as 20 Oct 1975, but the registered death year for Melville E James on the Vic BDM's site is 1976. Seems unusual for an October death not to be registered until the next year, but I guess circumstances change case-by-case and may delay it sometimes.

I happen to have the 1967 Footy Annual and it's the same! Also, it's Melville L. 'Roy' James in The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers.

 

[Gibbsy]

I happen to have the 1967 Footy Annual and it's the same! Also, it's Melville L. 'Roy' James in The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers.

I believe the Record first published a list of winners in 1950 and James' name was there for 1926. So it's been a thing for a very, very long time.

Obviously he played, as the croucher mentioned above, but how has he never been mentioned as a winner? Or even a place-getter?

 

[Rainier Wolfcastle]

I'm not convinced that James won the Gardiner Medal at all.
Nowhere in this thread is there a source cited which indicates that he did...apart from that 2008 article...

I feel the same - the zero mention of him sharing the award at that time has created a lot of doubt for mine.

Gibbsy and I will keep digging and update the thread when we find out more.

 

[GreyCrow]

I feel the same - the zero mention of him sharing the award at that time has created a lot of doubt for mine.

Gibbsy and I will keep digging and update the thread when we find out more.

Have to agree. Unlike today there was more attention to detail. Even if he had finished in a tie there would have been mention of a countback etc.

 

[rbartlett]

Suggestion for you. Over at the Cricket Statistician site (http://acscricket.com/?page_id=1006) , they have an open spreadsheet where they place all their potential alterations/that people are researching.
It's a good way to see all changes made, and all recommended changes.
I wonder if we should do something similar for this thread so as to keep a track of all the changes ?

 

[the croucher]

Suggestion for you. Over at the Cricket Statistician site (http://acscricket.com/?page_id=1006) , they have an open spreadsheet where they place all their potential alterations/that people are researching.
It's a good way to see all changes made, and all recommended changes.
I wonder if we should do something similar for this thread so as to keep a track of all the changes ?

Very good idea, Rhett. Hopefully there are forum members with the tech expertise who can help contributors to this thread set it up. Unfortunately, I'm not one, am okay with the "detective work", but using a farm analogy - machinery and I are in parallel dimensions !!

 

[*Paul*]

R18 1978, Carl. v Coll. It appears Carlton's half-time score was 5.9 not 7.12 as convention has it, and they were 10.12 at 3/4 time not 10.14.
Canberra Times
Footage

 

[Gibbsy]

R18 1978, Carl. v Coll. It appears Carlton's half-time score was 5.9 not 7.12 as convention has it, and they were 10.12 at 3/4 time not 10.14.
Canberra Times
Footage

Remarkable! How'd you stumble across this one?

 

[*Paul*]

The easy way, somebody wrote to me pointing it out. Perhaps they saw the Youtube, then went looking for further details.

 

[35Daicos]

R18 1978, Carl. v Coll. It appears Carlton's half-time score was 5.9 not 7.12 as convention has it, and they were 10.12 at 3/4 time not 10.14.
Canberra Times
Footage

Pretty amazing, really, that such an error from 'recent times' has been found. I presume the AFL has been notified of this? Well done to whoever it was who is responsible for this.

 

[the croucher]

A puzzle which may take a while to resolve:
Horrie Webster, originally playing with City [Launceston] and Carnival rep for Tas,
goes on to play with South Melbourne and Essendon in the VFL.
Official league records appear to have his life date span as
born 15 Aug 1888 - died 22 Feb 1949

There is a male child registered with that birthdate in Tasmania as Alfred George Webster.
https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net....ME_INDEXES$002f0$002fNAME_INDEXES:1073821/one
That person died in Tas on 19 June 1951
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/52819528

The Horace Webster who died in Victoria in 1949 is listed as being born in Tas, but has different parents to AG shown above
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/b...etailsAction=4E737DFD35FD39F3D91267B4DC009495

A male child (registered with name Colin) was born in 1888 to the same parents (but in January not August)
https://linctas.ent.sirsidynix.net....ME_INDEXES$002f0$002fNAME_INDEXES:1072022/one

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

A puzzle which may take a while to resolve:
Horrie Webster, originally playing with City [Launceston] and Carnival rep for Tas,
goes on to play with South Melbourne and Essendon in the VFL.
Official league records appear to have his life date span as
born 15 Aug 1888 - died 22 Feb 1949

I've dug into this one a bit and it seems likely that the listed birth date is incorrect.

On 9 May 1887 John Webster married Frances Alice Stevenson (ref1, ref2)
They had 5 children as declared when Frances Alice remarried following John's death (ref3)
1. Colin John (16 Jan 1888 - 25 Nov 1889)
2. Horace (tbc - 22 Feb 1949)
3. Walter Roy (10 May 1890 - 14 Dec 1891)
4. Colin Guy Vere (1 Oct 1891 - after 1935)
5. Kathleen Leonora (5 Jul 1893 - after 1935)

When Frances Alice dies on 7 Jul 1935 (ref) her death notice records her as the "mother of Horace, Jack and Nora (Learoyd)".

Given the birth dates of the other children and Horace's death record, Horace was likely to have been born in late 1888-mid 1889 but there is no entry in the linctas database and I have not been able to locate any birth notice on Trove. His death record lists his age as 60 which (if accurate) would suggest his birth was before 22 Feb 1889.

 

[the croucher]

I've dug into this one a bit and it seems likely that the listed birth date is incorrect.

On 9 May 1887 John Webster married Frances Alice Stevenson (ref1, ref2)
They had 5 children as declared when Frances Alice remarried following John's death (ref3)
1. Colin John (16 Jan 1888 - 25 Nov 1889)
2. Horace (tbc - 22 Feb 1949)
3. Walter Roy (10 May 1890 - 14 Dec 1891)
4. Colin Guy Vere (1 Oct 1891 - after 1935)
5. Kathleen Leonora (5 Jul 1893 - after 1935)

When Frances Alice dies on 7 Jul 1935 (ref) her death notice records her as the "mother of Horace, Jack and Nora (Learoyd)".

Given the birth dates of the other children and Horace's death record, Horace was likely to have been born in late 1888-mid 1889 but there is no entry in the linctas database and I have not been able to locate any birth notice on Trove. His death record lists his age as 60 which (if accurate) would suggest his birth was before 22 Feb 1889.

Thanks for that. Lot of good detective work.
Will follow up a bit today, (during breaks in the cricket), especially to figure out if - as seems likely - "Colin Guy Vere"
later becomes known as "Jack", otherwise there is another child to find !

 

[MortlockWatcher]

There'd be a fair few clubs of origin wrong over the years. For a number of years (pretty sure around 1990s and 2000s in particular), the VFL/AFL only listed their last club (TAC, SANFL or WAFL) instead of the club that developed the player.

My research for an upcoming book has been hampered by the origin club being omitted for some very notable players, resulting many hours researching back issues of the WAFL Budget just to confirm where former AFL players or players with a significant WAFL career really came from.

Thankfully, in recent years the AFL has rectified this glaring error.

 

[the croucher]

Thanks for that. Lot of good detective work.
Will follow up a bit today, (during breaks in the cricket), especially to figure out if - as seems likely - "Colin Guy Vere"
later becomes known as "Jack", otherwise there is another child to find !

Okay, original record is for John Guy Vere, not Colin GV, so confirmed that Jack mentioned in death notice for Frances is Horrie's brother.
Doesn't help directly with Horrie's birthdate, but is helpful to confirm other children just in case other clues come from indirect sources to do with Jack and Nora.

 

[the croucher]

Okay, original record is for John Guy Vere, not Colin GV, so confirmed that Jack mentioned in death notice for Frances is Horrie's brother.
Doesn't help directly with Horrie's birthdate, but is helpful to confirm other children just in case other clues come from indirect sources to do with Jack and Nora.

Horace (aged 50) is a passenger arriving on ship into New York on 9/10 March 1939, and identifies next-of-kin as brother John "Jack" who lives in Caulfield Victoria. Another step in confirming family members.

Am going to leave it at that for a while now. I think Horrie went to school in Launceston (Grammar to be exact) so will wait for school archives staff to return to work and ask them to check admission register for his birthdate.

 

[GreyCrow]

1. Colin John (16 Jan 1888 - 25 Nov 1889)
2. Horace (tbc - 22 Feb 1949)
3. Walter Roy (10 May 1890 - 14 Dec 1891)
4. Colin Guy Vere (1 Oct 1891 - after 1935)
5. Kathleen Leonora (5 Jul 1893 - after 1935)

Keeping dates visible

Given the birth dates of the other children and Horace's death record, Horace was likely to have been born in late 1888-mid 1889 but there is no entry in the linctas database and I have not been able to locate any birth notice on Trove. His death record lists his age as 60 which (if accurate) would suggest his birth was before 22 Feb 1889.

Given those DOB it would not be too much before 22/2. Though the mother seems to be very fertile there is really a 2 month window. I would suggest the birth was in 1889. Not saying its impossible for Dec 88.

 

[the croucher]

I believe I have come across another case of mistaken identity, or at very least incorrect birth/death dates.

The Essendon "past players" pages list a player as Austin Gilligan born 1 Nov 1877 died 20 March 1967.
The profile mentions that his brother Tom played with South Melbourne 1897-99.
http://www.essendonfc.com.au/our-club/history/past-player-profiles/past-player-profiles-g

The records accepted as "official" on australianfootball.com list the Essendon player as Austin Gilligan
born 18 Oct 1879 died 9 July 1963
http://australianfootball.com/players/player/austin+gilligan/1651

The AFL Tables website lists that player as Arthur Gilligan
born 18 Oct 1879
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/A/Arthur_Gilligan.html

Arthur Edward Gilligan died 9 July 1963
notice in The Age issue of 10 July 1963
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=_n1VAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pZYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4418,1410137

Austin John Gilligan died 20 March 1967
notice in The Age issue of 21 March 1967
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rBZVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XJMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5353,3840128
scroll down page a little to see first column of deaths

A search on the Victorian BDM's site
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/indexsearch.doj
using advanced mode, click Births box, Gilligan surname, mother's maiden name Hayes given name Catherine returns three children registered in years 1874, 1876, 1878 with names Thomas, Mary and Austin. That is same info that appears in Austin's death notice.

A search of the New Zealand BDM's site
https://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Search/Search?Path=/queryEntry.m?type=births
for Arthur Edward Gilligan between dates 01/01/1879 and 31/12/1879 returns one hit with reg number 18141

So, which Gilligan played for Essendon (and Fitzroy) between 1902 and 1905, and was he born in Victoria or New Zealand ?
Have looked on Trove but not yet found a ref to both brothers playing in the VFL. Tom Gilligan's name shows up years later with a Cup named after him being presented at a Catholic school, and the Gilligan's father Irish heritage is certainly noted at time of death in 1919.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/168070632

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Off topic a bit the croucher but does the Google News archives cover all years from 1960 onwards?

Likewise BDM AU and NZ.

 

[35Daicos]

I believe I have come across another case of mistaken identity, or at very least incorrect birth/death dates.

The Essendon "past players" pages list a player as Austin Gilligan born 1 Nov 1877 died 20 March 1967.
The profile mentions that his brother Tom played with South Melbourne 1897-99.
http://www.essendonfc.com.au/our-club/history/past-player-profiles/past-player-profiles-g

The records accepted as "official" on australianfootball.com list the Essendon player as Austin Gilligan
born 18 Oct 1879 died 9 July 1963
http://australianfootball.com/players/player/austin+gilligan/1651

The AFL Tables website lists that player as Arthur Gilligan
born 18 Oct 1879
http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/A/Arthur_Gilligan.html

Arthur Edward Gilligan died 9 July 1963
notice in The Age issue of 10 July 1963
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=_n1VAAAAIBAJ&sjid=pZYDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4418,1410137

Austin John Gilligan died 20 March 1967
notice in The Age issue of 21 March 1967
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=rBZVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=XJMDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5353,3840128
scroll down page a little to see first column of deaths

A search on the Victorian BDM's site
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/indexsearch.doj
using advanced mode, click Births box, Gilligan surname, mother's maiden name Hayes given name Catherine returns three children registered in years 1874, 1876, 1878 with names Thomas, Mary and Austin. That is same info that appears in Austin's death notice.

A search of the New Zealand BDM's site
https://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Search/Search?Path=/queryEntry.m?type=births
for Arthur Edward Gilligan between dates 01/01/1879 and 31/12/1879 returns one hit with reg number 18141

So, which Gilligan played for Essendon (and Fitzroy) between 1902 and 1905, and was he born in Victoria or New Zealand ?
Have looked on Trove but not yet found a ref to both brothers playing in the VFL. Tom Gilligan's name shows up years later with a Cup named after him being presented at a Catholic school, and the Gilligan's father Irish heritage is certainly noted at time of death in 1919.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/168070632

This is worth reading, bearing in mind the Essendon past player profile says "Gilligan transferred to the Perth Football Club in June, 1906.":-

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/82406570 (Jun 28 1906)

At the last meeting an application for a permit from Essendon to Perth had been refused to A. Gilligan. A strong point in the opposition to Gilligan on that occasion was the similarity of the signatures in ink in the Perth and Subiaco forms.

"In the matter of an application made to the Western Australian Football Association for a permit by Arthur Herbert Gilligan I, Arthur
Herbert Gilligan, of Perth, in the State of Western Australia, make oath and say:— (1) That I am the applicant set forth in the annexed permit form
marked 'A,' now produced and shown to me, and the signature A. H. Gilligan' appended thereto is in my handwriting.

"In the matter of an application made to the Western Australian Football Association for a permit by Arthur Herbert Gilligan. I William Watson Gilligan, of Perth, in the State of Western Australia, make oath and say:— 1. That Arthur Herbert Gilligan is my brother, and I am informed that he has applied for a permit to play football in this State.