Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[rbartlett]

rbartlett

Rhett, I've just noticed this while looking through the 1925 papers, and it should be worth following up: Both The Herald and The Sporting Globe name Empey

Well, looking at 1925 RFC Annual Report, they have Empey playing 11 matches in 1925, which correlates to AFL Tables (unless of course he is incorrectly named in an earlier match)
The Woods entry in the Annual Report is unreadable due to damage, so unsure how many games they list him us.
However....

GAME DISCREPANCY - ANNUAL REPORT vs AFLTABLES
In the 1925 AR it says:
Donald Don played 15 matches, and AFLTables has him at 14
Bob McCaskill played 10 matches, and AFL Tables has him at 11 (so this could explain the Rd 14 difference)
Changes were made by AFL (see posts below) to reflect new tally

GOALS DISCREPANCY
There's also discrepancy in goals kicked in 1925 AR vs AFLTables.
Both list a total of 132 goals kicked for the season.
However see below (first column is AR, second is AFLTables)

Donald Don 16gls vs 19gls
Don Fraser 10gls vs 7 gls

I think I'll start from 1908 and do an audit of discrepancies in Games/Goals between AR / AFLTables.
And post on individual posts.

 

[35Daicos]

Well, looking at 1925 RFC Annual Report, they have Empey playing 11 matches in 1925, which correlates to AFL Tables (unless of course he is incorrectly named in an earlier match)
The Woods entry in the Annual Report is unreadable due to damage, so unsure how many games they list him us.
However....

GAME DISCREPANCY - ANNUAL REPORT vs AFLTABLES
In the 1925 AR it says:
Donald Don played 15 matches, and AFLTables has him at 14
Bob McCaskill played 10 matches, and AFL Tables has him at 11 (so this could explain the Rd 14 difference)

GOALS DISCREPANCY
There's also discrepancy in goals kicked in 1925 AR vs AFLTables.
Both list a total of 132 goals kicked for the season.
However see below (first column is AR, second is AFLTables)

Donald Don 16gls vs 19gls
Don Fraser 10gls vs 7 gls

I think I'll start from 1908 and do an audit of discrepancies in Games/Goals between AR / AFLTables.
And post on individual posts.

The Richmond 1925 Club Player Lists page from the old AFL Historical Statistics site has Donald Don with 15 games and Bob McCaskill 10 games. So I wonder why it's different on AFL Tables.

Edit: The Footy Works program has it the same way as AFL Tables, and I imagine they both would have gotten their info from the AFL Historical Statistics site. So I'd say the AFL must have made a change in the records a fair few years back in this case, and AFL Tables (and others) weren't aware of it.

 

[rbartlett]

1908 Richmond discrepancies -
They don't list Game numbers.
With Goals Kicked the AR tallies to 120 goals, where as AFLTables tallies to 128 goals.
So obviously AR is incorrect. No real point listing those credited with less goals in AR - because we know they would be incorrect. Right?

1909 Richmond discrepancies (I've attached screenshot of 1909 below)
GAMES

Paddy Bourke - 12 (AR) vs 15 (AFLTables).
AR lists him for the "First Round" - Univ, Fitz, Sth, Carl, Ess, Geel and for "Second Round" Melb, Uni, Fitz, Coll, Sth, Ess

F.Bourke 2 (AR), not listed on AFL Tables at all!!!!
AR list him for "First Round" Melb, Coll.
AFLTables only has Bill Bourke, Joe Bourke and Paddy Bourke playing this year.
AR lists W. Bourke (the AR and AFLTables games match) , P. Bourke (see above), F. Bourke, and J. Bourke (Uni, Gee games) as players during the season.


Sam Cooke - 4 (AR) vs 3 (AFLTables)
AR lists him for "Second Round" - StK, Carl, Ess, Gee

Herbert Hill - 13 (AR) vs 12 (AFLTables)
Though we now know his brother Ern Hill played 2 games

Barney Herbert - 17 (AR) vs 18 (AFLTables)
AR lists him for "First Round" Melb, Uni, Fitz, Coll, Sth, Carl, Ess, Gee and for "Second Round" Melb, Uni, Fitz, Coll, StK, Sth, Carl, Ess, Gee

Len Incigneri - 15 (AR) vs 14 (AFLTables)
AR lists him for "First Round" Melb, Uni, Fitz, Coll, StKi, Sth, Carl, Ess, Gee and for "Second Round" Melb, Uni, StK, Carl, Ess, Gee

GOALS
There are NO goal discrepancies between AR and AFLTables for 1909 season.

 

[35Daicos]

Well, looking at 1925 RFC Annual Report, they have Empey playing 11 matches in 1925, which correlates to AFL Tables (unless of course he is incorrectly named in an earlier match)
The Woods entry in the Annual Report is unreadable due to damage, so unsure how many games they list him us.
However....

GAME DISCREPANCY - ANNUAL REPORT vs AFLTABLES
In the 1925 AR it says:
Donald Don played 15 matches, and AFLTables has him at 14
Bob McCaskill played 10 matches, and AFL Tables has him at 11 (so this could explain the Rd 14 difference)

GOALS DISCREPANCY
There's also discrepancy in goals kicked in 1925 AR vs AFLTables.
Both list a total of 132 goals kicked for the season.
However see below (first column is AR, second is AFLTables)

Donald Don 16gls vs 19gls
Don Fraser 10gls vs 7 gls

I think I'll start from 1908 and do an audit of discrepancies in Games/Goals between AR / AFLTables.
And post on individual posts.

I've just had a look at an older edition (2002, I think) of Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers and compared it with the new edition. Don's tally was changed from 158 to 159 games, and McCaskill went from 36 to 35 games. So it really does look as if the AFL did make changes for that game which the likes of AFL Tables were not aware of.

 

[Gibbsy]

So the question might be did he actually play in Rounds 12 and 13? It would seem he did play 93 games so I'm guessing afltables is correct and that he only missed Rounds 10 and 11.

Colin Watson was named in the R12 side v Melbourne: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2149584/440744

He was named in the team for Rounds 12 and 13 in a couple of papers I've looked at. I haven't looked any further than that.

It's a bit of a strange one isn't it? My focus has been elsewhere so I haven't been looking at team line-ups but this profile on Watson from months later maintains that he missed four weeks for St Kilda. One would think that a two-week return from a dislocated jaw – especially in those days – is optimistic. Alas it seems to be the case, unless there was another Watson floating around the club...

 

[35Daicos]

It's a bit of a strange one isn't it? My focus has been elsewhere so I haven't been looking at team line-ups but this profile on Watson from months later maintains that he missed four weeks for St Kilda. One would think that a two-week return from a dislocated jaw – especially in those days – is optimistic. Alas it seems to be the case, unless there was another Watson floating around the club...

It certainly is a strange one! I've had a pretty decent look and he appears to have played rounds 1-9 and 12-17, giving him 15 games for the season, which is how the records have it. So why all the stories saying he missed four games? No idea, but maybe someone got it wrong and others went along with that story!

Edit: After he played for St Kilda in the rd. 9 game on June 27 he then played the state game on the following Saturday (July 4). He was injured in that game and missed the next two League games; the week after that (Sat. July 25) another state game was played (with no VFL games scheduled). By the time he played again in rd. 12 (August 1) four weeks had passed. So he had a reasonable time to recover from the injury.

https://afltables.com/afl/seas/1925.html

 

[the croucher]

Well, looking at 1925 RFC Annual Report, they have Empey playing 11 matches in 1925, which correlates to AFL Tables (unless of course he is incorrectly named in an earlier match)
The Woods entry in the Annual Report is unreadable due to damage, so unsure how many games they list him as.
However....
<snip>

Rhett. Richmond played 17 games that year, 18 players per match...if the Woods entry is the only unreadable one, then a general calculation will help cross-check..adding all the players "games played" together should result in a total of 306.

Whatever the figure is without including Woods - the gap between total for all the others and 306 should be the figure for his "games played."

 

[Gibbsy]

Rhett. Richmond played 17 games that year, 18 players per match...if the Woods entry is the only unreadable one, then a general calculation will help cross-check..adding all the players "games played" together should result in a total of 306.

Whatever the figure is without including Woods - the gap between total for all the others and 306 should be the figure for his "games played."

Unless there is more than one player for whom the figures are unreadable. I hope not.

 

[rbartlett]

Unless there is more than one player for whom the figures are unreadable. I hope not.

I've attached the 1925 Annual Report page below.
The base of it has been sticky taped up.
I'm probably going to have to sight the original, however thats in storage atm due to a Museum relocation

 

[rbartlett]

Richmond's 1910 AR vs AFLTables GAMES has one difference, but its an error on the AR.
M Maguire 14 (AR) vs 15 (AFLTables).
However, the AR total tally adds up to 323 games, and AFLTables up to 324 (18 per side x18 games that season)
The AR didn't have Maguire listed for Rd 10 Uni match.

 

[rbartlett]

I haven't looked deeply into this at all, but in the 1910 AR it lists T Price in the games section.
Now AFLTables has the player listed as Syd Price https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/S/Syd_Price.html
A quick Trove search finds 16 April 1909 The Herald say "Other new players are Tim Price..." http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242058290
A team photo published on 20 May 1909 lists him as S. Price http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article222258718
His wiki calls him Sydney Alexander Price https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syd_Price , so I'm wondering why the AR calls him T. Price, and The Herald.

In 1918 March 2 an article is published from Frank Goldin a supporter and worked of the RFC previously (though I'm unable to discover what he did work wise at the club). He lists a few player names who are over fighting in the war and he lists Tim Price. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article93808534
My TigerlandArchive has Syd Price as the name of the player who played and went to War - and I think I got that from Harder Than Football (pg 201)

 

[Gibbsy]

I've attached the 1925 Annual Report page below.
The base of it has been sticky taped up.
I'm probably going to have to sight the original, however thats in storage atm due to a Museum relocation

Do you have access to VFL/AFL Annual Reports of years gone by, Rhett? I feel like these should be more readily accessible, although it doesn't surprise me that the league has little interest in promoting them.

 

[the croucher]

I haven't looked deeply into this at all, but in the 1910 AR it lists T Price in the games section.
Now AFLTables has the player listed as Syd Price https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/S/Syd_Price.html
A quick Trove search finds 16 April 1909 The Herald say "Other new players are Tim Price..." http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242058290
A team photo published on 20 May 1909 lists him as S. Price http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article222258718
His wiki calls him Sydney Alexander Price https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syd_Price , so I'm wondering why the AR calls him T. Price, and The Herald.

In 1918 March 2 an article is published from Frank Goldin a supporter and worked of the RFC previously (though I'm unable to discover what he did work wise at the club). He lists a few player names who are over fighting in the war and he lists Tim Price. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article93808534
My TigerlandArchive has Syd Price as the name of the player who played and went to War - and I think I got that from Harder Than Football (pg 201)

This page in The Herald 30 April 1909 (column 6, para 3)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/26265846

i. d.'s him as S Price

 

[35Daicos]

According to The Encyclopedia, Syd A. Price played for Richmond 1909-10. They also had Joe A. Price (1911) and Richard Price (1912).

Should be Sydney Alexander according to Vic BDM (7597).
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22442433 (25 July 1947)

Former rover dies
Syd Price, Brunswick rover in the days of "Dookie" McKenzie and Henry Chase, died suddenly yesterday. He was one of the finest rovers in the VFA before the first world war and for two years after his return from service.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/22442566

He went to Brunswick in May 1910 after playing the Rd. 1 game for Richmond: Sydney Price, Richmond to Brunswick

 

[*Paul*]

I've just had a look at an older edition (2002, I think) of Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers and compared it with the new edition. Don's tally was changed from 158 to 159 games, and McCaskill went from 36 to 35 games. So it really does look as if the AFL did make changes for that game which the likes of AFL Tables were not aware of.

I have copies of the old stats.afl.com.au files from about 2010-2011. It looks like I may've made an attempt to run an update, but it's likely I couldn't muster the enthusiasm.

Anyway, according to what I can see, Don played in r10, and Empey didn't. Then McCaskill didn't play in r14, but Empey did.

I will try and look into seeing if other changes have been made, meanwhile if anyone wants the files
https://afltables.com/public/lists.zip

 

[rbartlett]

I might bring Rodgers across this 1925 discrepancy and see what he has at the AFL regarding these rounds.
I've asked him what the AFL recognises as the Richmond teams for Rd 10, 14 and 15 of 1925 season.

 

[rbartlett]

Do you have access to VFL/AFL Annual Reports of years gone by, Rhett? I feel like these should be more readily accessible, although it doesn't surprise me that the league has little interest in promoting them.

VFL/AFL Annual Report I don't have access to.
Richmond's AR prior to 1954 are on MCC website

 

[Gibbsy]

VFL/AFL Annual Report I don't have access to.
Richmond's AR prior to 1954 are on MCC website

Ha, don't tell me Annual Reports are subject to the post-1954 copyright rule as well?! Or is that just coincidental?

Thanks.

 

[rbartlett]

Ha, don't tell me Annual Reports are subject to the post-1954 copyright rule as well?! Or is that just coincidental?

Thanks.

It was requested by the club that post 1954 AR aren't posted online. Will keep you posted

 

[the croucher]

Thanks to colleagues and associates at Richmond, Carlton and Melbourne who have all responded to me acknowledging the Rigby updated info.

AFL & Season Guide staff were advised ten days ago, no response so far, and updates page doesn't mention it yet:
http://www.afl.com.au/afl-hq/afl-season-guide-updates

Seven weeks now, and the AFL Season Guide page still hasn't been updated to acknowledge the Rigby error.

Nor has it been updated to acknowledge being told that the 2018 issue has an error for 1911 Ldg G'kicker,
or being told that there are at least three VFL Grand Finals with incorrect qtr-by-qtr scores.

We must have reached that point of the year where no more updates will occur.

 

[rbartlett]

Richmond 1911 discrepancies review
Annual Report vs AFL Tables

GAMES
Les Oliver 3 (AR says he played Rd 13) vs 2 (AFL TABLES)
However AR tally for whole year equal 325 instead of 324 (18x18), and they've listed 19 players for the Rd 13 Geelong match.
So typo error with AR I suspect

GOALS
Maguire 28gls (AR) vs 29 (AFLTables) (AR had Maguire with only 2 gls in Rd 3, AFLTables has him with 3)
Schmidt 20 gls (AR) vs 21 (AFLTables) (AR have counted wrong when tallying his goals)

ALL CLEAR

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Richmond 1911 discrepancies review
Annual Report vs AFL Tables

GAMES
Les Oliver 3 (AR says he played Rd 13) vs 2 (AFL TABLES)
However AR tally for whole year equal 325 instead of 324 (18x18), and they've listed 19 players for the Rd 13 Geelong match.
So typo error with AR I suspect

GOALS
Maguire 28gls (AR) vs 29 (AFLTables) (AR had Maguire with only 2 gls in Rd 3, AFLTables has him with 3)
Schmidt 20 gls (AR) vs 21 (AFLTables) (AR have counted wrong when tallying his goals)

ALL CLEAR

How did you put lines through the text?

 

[rbartlett]

How did you put lines through the text?

Strike-through option when you press the INSERT button

 

[GreyCrow]

How did you put lines through the text?

In the box in between the film clip and camera. Has quote etc. One says strike through. Highlight your text then click on that

As an example

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Strike-through option when you press the INSERT button

In the box in between the film clip and camera. Has quote etc. One says strike through. Highlight your text then click on that

As an example

Thank you guys.