Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

Well that starts to build a case...
Played North Melbourne 1907
1908 April 18 - RFC practice match 'T Johnson' (halfback, Lancefield and Carlton)
Transferred to Richmond on 29 April 1908
Played 9 May 1908 with RFC (back pocket)
Transferred to Nth Melbourne 5 June 1908 (or one or two days earlier)
Played 6 June 1908, and 13 June 1908 with Nth Melbourne as a half back.

If that is him, then it is improbable that he played with Richmond on the same date 13 June 1908 (I'm assuming the Herald report is from that afternoon's match)
Meaning the 'Johnstone' listed as forward pocket for RFC 13 June 1908 (Rd 8) is not him, but an entirely new player.

To add fuel to this, the 1908 Annual Report lists W Johnson under the PLAYERS heading. It does also list a J Green , who isn't credited with a senior game yet and appears to be in Rd 11, 13, and Rd 15 squads (and maybe more) that year.

Hopefully the Richmond Guardian, or Richmond Australian sheds some light on it.

It's a strange one! More digging is required!!

 

[rbartlett]

A bit more evidence..there's certainly two Johnsons during this season in contention at Richmond.

The squad to be selected from for Rd 1 vs Melbourne indicates Johnson (2)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242037513

The squad to be selected from for Rd 4 vs Essendon indicates Johnson (2). http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242025872

Although the squad listing for Rd 8 vs Carlton (the one I am concerned about) doesn't list a Johnson. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242036761
I might make a visit to State Lib tomorrow before they close the newspaper, to seek out a Richmond Guardian

 

[rbartlett]

Okay, headed off to SLV today to look through Richmond Guardian , Richmond Australian, and Sporting Judge microfilm.

Sadly it didn't answer my question.

For the Richmond Guardian - Rd 1 squad lists Johnson (2).
For the Richmond Guardian - Rd 2 vs Uni review - "The locals tried Johnson and Hannaford"
For the Richmond Guardian - Rd 3 vs Fitz review - "Burns, Heaney, Incigneri, Johnson and Hannaford stood out. First three on the sick list"
Their Rd 8 review makes no mention of team lineup or Johnson

For the Richmond Australian - Rd 2 vs Uni review lists Johnson at halfback
There was no team line up listed for Rd 8 vs Carlton, which is one I'm possibly disputing. It just indicated that "weakened by illness and accidents, Richmond were not expected to do much against Carlton... Hardiman, Pannam, Lawson, Chapman, Incigneri and Heaney were laid aside...."

Side note:
Strangely, both the Herald http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242917503 and Richmond Australian list a Nyburg at centre half back' in the Rd 11 1908 match.
According to my archives, that is Ivor Lawson - so no idea why it says Nyburg

 

[35Daicos]

Side note:
Strangely, both the Herald http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article242917503 and Richmond Australian list a Nyburg at centre half back' in the Rd 11 1908 match.
According to my archives, that is Ivor Lawson - so no idea why it says Nyburg

Lawson was a doubtful starter (with influenza) according to The Herald on the Friday, though he was named in the squad (no mention of Nyburg!). It seems pretty certain that Lawson played, so perhaps Nyburg was an alias used for some reason.

 

[rbartlett]

I might have to put this one on the backburner, cause I've pretty much exhausted all the newspapers.
The Illustrated and Sporting Dramatic News may be an option - but I have to order that in to the Library.
I'm leaning towards the Rd 8 Johnson/Johnstone/Johnston being a different played to Alex Johnston - but until I find confirmed evidence I'll leave it as it.

 

[35Daicos]

I might have to put this one on the backburner, cause I've pretty much exhausted all the newspapers.
The Illustrated and Sporting Dramatic News may be an option - but I have to order that in to the Library.
I'm leaning towards the Rd 8 Johnson/Johnstone/Johnston being a different played to Alex Johnston - but until I find confirmed evidence I'll leave it as it.

This is probably yet another mistake, but a match report for the rd. 2 1908 game refers to "Johnson of Mansfield". The reporter probably heard it wrong, and it should have been Lancefield (where the player who was with Carlton came from).: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10660681

 

[rbartlett]

This is probably yet another mistake, but a match report for the rd. 2 1908 game refers to "Johnson of Mansfield". The reporter probably heard it wrong, and it should have been Lancefield (where the player who was with Carlton came from).: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10660681

Yeah I agree with that. That was his debut match.
Unfortunately, the Rd 8 match reports are lacking depth, mainly because the Richmond side was riddled with injuries/changes.

 

[35Daicos]

Now in practice match of April 18, as noted above there is a T Johnson (half-back, Lancefield and Carlton). That would seemingly correlate to the Alex Johnston who played for Carlton in 1906 and came from Lancefield area and who Blueseum say is a backman https://www.blueseum.org/Alex+Johnston
But there is also a A Johnson, a forward from Cheltenham, named in the same practice match. That spelling correlates to the Annual Report entry.

In the April 25th Practice match there is an A. Johnson kicking a goal for Richmond.

This has Mentone with Johnson, a new recruit from Cheltenham in mid-1908: "and Johnson, who played a sterling game, is a Cheltenham acquisition." There must be a strong chance that this is the player who was at Richmond earlier that year, so perhaps he just played in those practice matches then went back to his old club?

W. Johnson (you had one with that name as well!) won a trophy for best all round footballer at Cheltenham in 1907: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204991604

It would be nice to find a permit or two for these players but I'm not getting anywhere.

 

[rbartlett]

I've asked Stephen Rodgers to check the permit books to see if there is any other Johnson to or from Richmond in that year.

 

[rbartlett]

I was researching if Jack Riewoldt's 3x competition leading goalkicker is a record for Richmond, and came across discrepancies in the VFA Leading Goalkicker list on wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_'Frosty'_Miller_Medal

1.
It has Jack Hutchinson (Richmond) equal winner in 1903, on 44 goals with Bert Ryan (West Melb)
However my record show Hutchinson only played the first 4 pre-season that year with Richmond. The Richmond Annual Report lists him as kicking 5 goals that season (it takes into account ALL games - including pre season).
So it can't be Hutchinson as equal winner for Richmond, so either a different player, or perhaps he was playing with another team after he played pre-season with us.

2.
It has Jack Hutchinson (Richmond) equal winner in 1904, on 51 goals with Bert Ryan (West Melb).
Now the Sept 2 1904 The Herald page 3 attached article shows the goalkicking ladder going into the last Round and has Bert Ryan on 44, and Hutchinson on 39.
But Hutchinson didn't play the next day - (vs Pt Melb Sept 3) as per second attachment Sept 9 1904 The Herald pg 4, and on his return to the club for the Semi Final (Sept 10 vs Nth) we only have him kicking 1 goal. Richmond then forfeited the GF; therefore at the most, Hutchinson would have 40 goals (which correlates with the RFC AGM details). So he can't be leading goalkicker that year either

Does my research make sense ?

 

[the croucher]

I was researching if Jack Riewoldt's 3x competition leading goalkicker is a record for Richmond, and came across discrepancies in the VFA Leading Goalkicker list on wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_'Frosty'_Miller_Medal

1.
It has Jack Hutchinson (Richmond) equal winner in 1903, on 44 goals with Bert Ryan (West Melb)
However my record show Hutchinson only played the first 4 pre-season that year with Richmond. The Richmond Annual Report lists him as kicking 5 goals that season (it takes into account ALL games - including pre season).
So it can't be Hutchinson as equal winner for Richmond, so either a different player, or perhaps he was playing with another team after he played pre-season with us.

2.
It has Jack Hutchinson (Richmond) equal winner in 1904, on 51 goals with Bert Ryan (West Melb).
Now the Sept 2 1904 The Herald page 3 attached article shows the goalkicking ladder going into the last Round and has Bert Ryan on 44, and Hutchinson on 39.
But Hutchinson didn't play the next day - (vs Pt Melb Sept 3) as per second attachment Sept 9 1904 The Herald pg 4, and on his return to the club for the Semi Final (Sept 10 vs Nth) we only have him kicking 1 goal. Richmond then forfeited the GF; therefore at the most, Hutchinson would have 40 goals (which correlates with the RFC AGM details). So he can't be leading goalkicker that year either

Does my research make sense ?

Yes, Rhett. I understand where you are coming from.

As far as 1904 is concerned, I agree that the tally for Hutchinson looks to be 40.
That is what is listed in 24 Sept issue of the Weekly Times: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/222793480

1903 is a real puzzle. Haven't done a match-by-match audit yet, but I cannot find Hutchinson kicking goals for any team !!
I see the refs to him in pre-season practice matches for Richmond, and then this in The Herald on 1 May that year:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/246089307
in first column "Port Melbourne are hopeful that Hutchinson will remain with them.."
the third column Richmond preview section includes "Hutchinson, the Port Melbourne sharpshooter (Association permitting).."

Makes you think that Port refused a permit and Hutchinson took off to a lesser league somewhere for a year.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I was researching if Jack Riewoldt's 3x competition leading goalkicker is a record for Richmond, and came across discrepancies in the VFA Leading Goalkicker list on wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_'Frosty'_Miller_Medal

1.
It has Jack Hutchinson (Richmond) equal winner in 1903, on 44 goals with Bert Ryan (West Melb)
However my record show Hutchinson only played the first 4 pre-season that year with Richmond. The Richmond Annual Report lists him as kicking 5 goals that season (it takes into account ALL games - including pre season).
So it can't be Hutchinson as equal winner for Richmond, so either a different player, or perhaps he was playing with another team after he played pre-season with us.

2.
It has Jack Hutchinson (Richmond) equal winner in 1904, on 51 goals with Bert Ryan (West Melb).
Now the Sept 2 1904 The Herald page 3 attached article shows the goalkicking ladder going into the last Round and has Bert Ryan on 44, and Hutchinson on 39.
But Hutchinson didn't play the next day - (vs Pt Melb Sept 3) as per second attachment Sept 9 1904 The Herald pg 4, and on his return to the club for the Semi Final (Sept 10 vs Nth) we only have him kicking 1 goal. Richmond then forfeited the GF; therefore at the most, Hutchinson would have 40 goals (which correlates with the RFC AGM details). So he can't be leading goalkicker that year either

Does my research make sense ?

Your research does make sense
Wikipedia is wrong - the Jack Hutchison entries for 1903/1904 were added back in 2008 and source is unclear (may have been the dead link at the bottom of the page?)

HardballGet is the most well researched source for VFA records as far as I can tell.... Hutchison's goal kicking came up late last year in the Missing VFA leading goalkickers thread
I'll update wikipedia to reflect (and reference) the HardballGet site

 

[rbartlett]

Stephen Rogers emailed me , regarding article in Footy Record this week.
The AFL is trying to confirm the record regarding 'unanswered goals'.
See below

When that "happened" last weekend, what came to mind was:

- the 23 by Geelong against St Kilda in 1899.
That's also, obviously,
23 unanswered.

- but also, the South Melbourne-St Kilda match of 1919. The
29.15 to 2.6.
By the quarter-by-quarter scores, we can clearly see,
it's 23, unanswered, in the second half.
The problem is, the second quarter, with the 4.2 to 2.2.
What were South? - when St Kilda kicked their second goal?

Unfortunately (as I discovered) there was no Herald description of play!
I also looked of course at The Age, The Argus, The Australasian -
all of those; but couldn't really get any clear indication.

The 2 Saint goals "seemed" to come reasonably early in the second quarter; but - as Ben speculates in the article - the Swans may have kicked the last 27 of the match! Or it may be -
the last 26, 25, 24? -
even down to 23; but that doesn't seem likely, because it doesn't seem like the Saints got the last of the 2 "just before half-time."

And it definitely seems, from what I could gather, that the 2 Saint goals were "very close together," presumably one after the other.

So, it does seem that THIS game, has the all-time record for "unanswered" goals - but it's frustrating us at the AFL, that we don't know what that exact number is!

 

[Gibbsy]

Stephen Rogers emailed me , regarding article in Footy Record this week.
The AFL is trying to confirm the record regarding 'unanswered goals'.
See below

When that "happened" last weekend, what came to mind was:

- the 23 by Geelong against St Kilda in 1899.
That's also, obviously,
23 unanswered.

- but also, the South Melbourne-St Kilda match of 1919. The
29.15 to 2.6.
By the quarter-by-quarter scores, we can clearly see,
it's 23, unanswered, in the second half.
The problem is, the second quarter, with the 4.2 to 2.2.
What were South? - when St Kilda kicked their second goal?

Unfortunately (as I discovered) there was no Herald description of play!
I also looked of course at The Age, The Argus, The Australasian -
all of those; but couldn't really get any clear indication.

The 2 Saint goals "seemed" to come reasonably early in the second quarter; but - as Ben speculates in the article - the Swans may have kicked the last 27 of the match! Or it may be -
the last 26, 25, 24? -
even down to 23; but that doesn't seem likely, because it doesn't seem like the Saints got the last of the 2 "just before half-time."

And it definitely seems, from what I could gather, that the 2 Saint goals were "very close together," presumably one after the other.

So, it does seem that THIS game, has the all-time record for "unanswered" goals - but it's frustrating us at the AFL, that we don't know what that exact number is!

When I think South Melbourne I think Emerald Hill Record, but unfortunately that gives scant info on the match (and is a little hard to read, as well).

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165176502

 

[GreyCrow]

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article202448889

St Kilda kicked their 2 goals consecutively in this report. The question being when. I say some passage of time occurred as the following indicates

They improved, and several fine individual contests were witnessed. James for the visitors was very clever with his dodging runs and cool play.' Sinclair
received the ball on the wing, and with a difficult screw kick obtained St. Kilda's first goal which was followed by one from Talbot. This closed St Kilda's goal scoring for the day." The' scores in the subsequent quarters convey their own story.

To me this says some time passed. Or it may have been ' they came out fired up and improved etc'

I think this might offer some more clues http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165120255

At the beginning of the second term James and Calvert missed chances within a few yards of South Melbournes goal. Sinclair snapped St. Kilda 's first goal, and Talbot got the second with a long kick from an angle. Practically St. Kilda's opposition to their opponents ended at half-time,

This seems likely that St Kilda scored after the 2 misses and then South scored the rest in the 2nd quarter giving them 27 goals in a row

 

[Gibbsy]

A little bit of info here in the Prahran Telegraph but not enough to prove anything.

EDIT: beaten to it by GreyCrow

 

[rbartlett]

Stephen Rogers has looked into the possibility of 2 Johnsons playing for Richmond in 1908.
Alex Johnston Rd 2 1908 and unknown Johnson Rd 8 1908.

Rogers has looked through his permit records and thinks that there are 2 different players, and hence a missing player from RFC records.
His email response is below as received.

Anyway, with the Johns(t)ons, the main man, as you know, is:
Alexander (called Ike) Johnston.
And you know all the birth and death details, etc.
This is all the clearance book tells us:
Alex Johnston
NM to Carl 11/5/06

Alex Johnston
Carl to NM 22/5/07

A.Johnston
NM to Rich 29/4/08
(with the footnote:
personal attendance dispensed with -
that's interesting!)

And that's all!
There are of course other Johns(t)on's at this time, but definitely no more Johns(t)on moves to or from Rich.

There's not even that one you showed us, in the paper, of

A.Johnston
Rich to NM 5/6/08

But given that that did happen, and with your other supporting documentation, it shows that,yes, the Round 8 Johns(t)on is a different man.

The Herald season preview of May 1 only tells us about Ike:

(re the Rich new players
Ike Johnson (late of Carlton), from Lancefield

You finally get something in the Sport newspaper of the same date:

. . . while two Johnsons, one from North, the other a Cheltenham resident, will be found doing their bit to put the yellow and black in front. One of these is already known as a half-back. The Cheltenham importation is expected to prove a persistent follower of the 'die hard' type.

So the Cheltenham man is clearly the Round 8 guy.

Rhett, can you work out who this guy is please!
Maybe if there's a Cheltenham local paper; from Cheltenham electoral rolls, maybe - anything you can think of! ---end--


Now using the info from 35Daics further up the page and everyones input we could put this theory forward

Alex Johnston
Played North Melbourne 1907 (formerly of Carlton, from Lancefield)
April 18 1908 - RFC practice match 'T Johnson' (halfback, Lancefield and Carlton)
Permit to Richmond 29 April 1908
Played 9 May 1908 with RFC (back pocket)
Transferred to Nth Melbourne 5 June 1908 (or one or two days earlier)
Played 6 June 1908, and 13 June 1908 with Nth Melbourne as a half back.

Unknown Johnson
Cheltenham player - perhaps W. Johnson who won best all-round trophy at end of 1907 season (makes sense why Richmond would trial him) https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204991604
Plays practice game with Richmond vs Sth Yarra April 1908 (but miscredited as A. Johnson, forward, Cheltenham) https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10659500
Eventually plays Rd 8 1908 (June 13) for Richmond.
Goes to Mentone from Richmond in July 1908 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164349161

Thoughts / input welcome. Does it seem apparent to researchers that Richmond's Johns(t)ons two games are two separate players

 

[ThePope]

Your research does make sense
Wikipedia is wrong - the Jack Hutchison entries for 1903/1904 were added back in 2008 and source is unclear (may have been the dead link at the bottom of the page?)

That deadlink is available in the Wayback Machine, but it doesn't have the dual winners for those years, so I don't know where Jevansen got his info from.

Actually, the answer is on the Hardballget page.

1903
EYEWTN has Jack Hutchinson (Richmond) as the sole leading goalkicker with 44 for the season. 3AW-89 then lists him as the joint-leading goalkicker with West Melbourne's Bert Ryan and it is the latter version which was embraced by various online sources.

In reality, Hutchinson only played the 1903 pre-season. There is no record of him taking the field during the premiership season. He was either injured or, more likely, forced to endure the early-1900s version of free-agency... sitting out of football for a year when the club he was contracted to (Port Melbourne) refused to clear him to his desired club (Richmond).

Ryan finished the home and away rounds tied on 43 goals with Brunswick's Charles Clements, before taking the season lead with a single goal in the finals.

1904
EYEWTN and 3AW-89 have Hutchinson and Ryan tying again, this time on 51 goals. Again, this has spread to a number of online sources.
In reality Ryan finished on 43 goals, three ahead of Hutchinson on 40 (after finals).​

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

...
Unknown Johnson
Cheltenham player - perhaps W. Johnson who won best all-round trophy at end of 1907 season (makes sense why Richmond would trial him) https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204991604
Plays practice game with Richmond vs Sth Yarra April 1908 (but miscredited as A. Johnson, forward, Cheltenham) https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10659500
Eventually plays Rd 8 1908 (June 13) for Richmond.
Goes to Mentone from Richmond in July 1908 https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164349161

Thoughts / input welcome. Does it seem apparent to researchers that Richmond's Johns(t)ons two games are two separate players

From http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page19582648 it appears likely he was Walter Johnson
Looking on Ancestry, there is a Walter Johnston living in Cheltenham in 1906 and 1909 electoral rolls, occupation grocer & living with a Florrie Elizabeth Johnston

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

From http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page19582648 it appears likely he was Walter Johnson
Looking on Ancestry, there is a Walter Johnston living in Cheltenham in 1906 and 1909 electoral rolls, occupation grocer & living with a Florrie Elizabeth Johnston

There is a family tree on Ancestry showing Walter & Florrie that seems fairly well researched
His details from the tree are:
BIRTH 17 JAN 1884 • Kingston, Creswick,Victoria, Australia #3452
DEATH 18 JUL 1946 • 12 Whitehorse rd, Ringwood, Victoria, Australia

His grave is here: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/90120897/walter-johnston (ignore the birth date listed there - it does not match the headstone)

Headstone suggests he served in the military.
EDIT: Served in WW2 - lied about age on enrolment - see http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=556516

 

[the croucher]

That deadlink is available in the Wayback Machine, but it doesn't have the dual winners for those years, so I don't know where Jevansen got his info from.

Actually, the answer is on the Hardballget page.

1903
EYEWTN has Jack Hutchinson (Richmond) as the sole leading goalkicker with 44 for the season. 3AW-89 then lists him as the joint-leading goalkicker with West Melbourne's Bert Ryan and it is the latter version which was embraced by various online sources.

In reality, Hutchinson only played the 1903 pre-season. There is no record of him taking the field during the premiership season. He was either injured or, more likely, forced to endure the early-1900s version of free-agency... sitting out of football for a year when the club he was contracted to (Port Melbourne) refused to clear him to his desired club (Richmond).

Ryan finished the home and away rounds tied on 43 goals with Brunswick's Charles Clements, before taking the season lead with a single goal in the finals.

1904
EYEWTN and 3AW-89 have Hutchinson and Ryan tying again, this time on 51 goals. Again, this has spread to a number of online sources.
In reality Ryan finished on 43 goals, three ahead of Hutchinson on 40 (after finals).​

Oh dear, another inaccurate list in Atkinson/AW books.
Sad to say given the work put in to compile and publish them, experience teaches one that "we" are not surprised.

 

[rbartlett]

Just a question for the likes of WhiteHartLane23 , the croucher , 35Daicos and others....
1. Do you believe the Rd 8 1908 Johnson is different to the Rd 2 1908 Johnson? Yes or No.
b). If No, why not.
c) If Yes, are we drawing a too long bow connecting Walter Johnson in Cheltenham 1907, and the W Johnson (Cheltenham) in Richmond's 1908 season, and potential Rd 8 1908 match? Are we connecting dots that aren't strong enough , simply because we want it to be the player in question?

 

[35Daicos]

Just a question for the likes of WhiteHartLane23 , the croucher , 35Daicos and others....
1. Do you believe the Rd 8 1908 Johnson is different to the Rd 2 1908 Johnson? Yes or No.
b). If No, why not.
c) If Yes, are we drawing a too long bow connecting Walter Johnson in Cheltenham 1907, and the W Johnson (Cheltenham) in Richmond's 1908 season, and potential Rd 8 1908 match? Are we connecting dots that aren't strong enough , simply because we want it to be the player in question?

1. Yes. It does look as if it has to be two different players.
c) I'd say it's extremely likely that the Rd 8 1908 player was the chap who was at Cheltenham FC in 1907, and that he was the Walter Johnston who lived at Cheltenham around that time. Everything seems to fit well enough. I still don't think we can be anywhere near certain enough at this stage, however. It really is a case of just guessing and hoping that he's the right person, along the lines of what you have suggested!

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Just a question for the likes of WhiteHartLane23 , the croucher , 35Daicos and others....
1. Do you believe the Rd 8 1908 Johnson is different to the Rd 2 1908 Johnson? Yes or No.
b). If No, why not.
c) If Yes, are we drawing a too long bow connecting Walter Johnson in Cheltenham 1907, and the W Johnson (Cheltenham) in Richmond's 1908 season, and potential Rd 8 1908 match? Are we connecting dots that aren't strong enough , simply because we want it to be the player in question?

1. Yes - as per Stephen Rodgers email above, I think the player movements mean it has to be a different player
c) I think it is a best guess scenario as 35Daicos suggests - the article I linked above to clearly names him as Walter and there is only one Walter Johnston living in Cheltenham in 1906 & 1909 electoral rolls. He is the right sort of age as well... Not conclusive but pretty likely in my view (and certainly stronger evidence than exists for some individuals currently credited with games.... )

 

[the croucher]

Just a question for the likes of WhiteHartLane23 , the croucher , 35Daicos and others....
1. Do you believe the Rd 8 1908 Johnson is different to the Rd 2 1908 Johnson? Yes or No.
b). If No, why not.
c) If Yes, are we drawing a too long bow connecting Walter Johnson in Cheltenham 1907, and the W Johnson (Cheltenham) in Richmond's 1908 season, and potential Rd 8 1908 match? Are we connecting dots that aren't strong enough , simply because we want it to be the player in question?

1. Yes Rhett, I think they are different players.
c) I agree with Daics & WHL - highly likely that the Rnd 8 player is the W Johnson of Cheltenham.
Hopefully we can find specific evidence to support that in the near future.