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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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In 1949 an umpire put their Brownlow Votes in for 'Cordner', without distinguishing which one. So neither got the vote. It's not clear from the article whether 'first preference' means 3 votes or 1 vote, but it wouldn't have had an impact on the final result anyway.
 
Supermercado said:
In 1949 an umpire put their Brownlow Votes in for 'Cordner', without distinguishing which one. So neither got the vote. It's not clear from the article whether 'first preference' means 3 votes or 1 vote, but it wouldn't have had an impact on the final result anyway.
Click to expand...

It is the BOG - 3 votes that are missing. AFL Tables has a good link to each year's Brownlow votes and the 1949 tally adds up to 609 when it should be 612 if the Cordner votes were counted.
https://afltables.com/afl/brownlow/brownlow1949.html#teams

1949 - 17 rounds x 6 = 102 games for 3,2,1 each match = 612 votes in all
(tally is minus Rnd 13 & Rnd 14 when votes were not awarded due to some players
being away at interstate matches)
 
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You might remember back around pages 34-36 a discussion about Archie Richardson, we know he played Richmond 1902-1904, and then became Sporting Globe writer, but we couldn't connect the dots to him being the StKilda player in 1898-1901.

This new article on Trove shows that he clearly stayed in touch with Richmond, and visited them, and there's even a photo of him.
What's interesting is there is no reference to having played with StKilda
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article243169602
 
rbartlett said:
You might remember back around pages 34-36 a discussion about Archie Richardson, we know he played Richmond 1902-1904, and then became Sporting Globe writer, but we couldn't connect the dots to him being the StKilda player in 1898-1901.

This new article on Trove shows that he clearly stayed in touch with Richmond, and visited them, and there's even a photo of him.
What's interesting is there is no reference to having played with StKilda
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article243169602
Click to expand...
This doesn't help solve that mystery, but it may be that Richardson was credited with a game in 1901 when he didn't play (I hope this one hasn't been brought up before!). The Age on 10 May 1901 certainly doesn't agree with the team line-ups the records have today: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190042702
In the Essendon team the places of Gavan, Byers, Wright and Ward were filled by Stuckey, Cleghorn, O'Loghlen and White (from Preston): and St. Kilda were without Richardson (whose injured ankle forced him to act the part of spectator), Rinder and J. Smith.
Click to expand...

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1901/051519010509.html

The four players in red ^ were named to play in the match (according to the records). The next round of games was only two days later (Thurs.-Sat.). Wright was named in the Essendon team in The Herald (and the official lineup), as were Rinder and J. Smith for St Kilda's next game. However, Richardson wasn't named for that game.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/26254163 (The Herald - Sat. 11 May 1901)

So did Richardson (and the others) play in the rd. 2 game? Does need looking into!

Edit: From The Leader (18 May 1901): https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198084621
St. Kilda were without M'Grath, Dowdell, C. Sandford and Richardson, whose injury on the opening day of the season again compelled him to act the part of spectator.
Click to expand...
 
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George Martin is named to have played for Essendon in the round 3 1901 game vs. Fitzroy but it seems very likely that he didn't play. The Age says "Essendon were handicapped by the absence of Gavan and Martin" and The Argus "Essendon, who missed Gavin and Martin".
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190036643 || https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10550233

The Herald on the Saturday evening doesn't mention Martin's absence but it names a lineup with just 17 players, so he may have been a late withdrawal.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243018020

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1901/050619010511.html

Incidentally, a player named York is in The Herald lineup at full-back for Fitzroy for the round 3 & 4 (at least) games. I've no idea who this is supposed to be!?

Edit: Oops! Much of what I have posted in this post, and the one before it, I had already brought up many, many pages ago! It does still need to be looked at and completely sorted out, however!!
 
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rbartlett said:
You might remember back around pages 34-36 a discussion about Archie Richardson, we know he played Richmond 1902-1904, and then became Sporting Globe writer, but we couldn't connect the dots to him being the StKilda player in 1898-1901.

This new article on Trove shows that he clearly stayed in touch with Richmond, and visited them, and there's even a photo of him.
What's interesting is there is no reference to having played with StKilda
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article243169602
Click to expand...
I don't think there can be any connection between the Richmond (VFA) player who ended up in America and lived to a ripe old age, and the St Kilda player. We know H. Archie Richardson was from Sale, and an A. Richardson was starring for Sale in 1900/1901 (e.g https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/62358228 ) yet he was supposed to be playing for St Kilda. An A. Richardson was Treasurer of a Sale club in 1900.

This says "The Sale Football Club has been weakened by the departure for South Africa and elsewhere of ~~~~ C. and A. Richardson and Duffy to Melbourne." https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/62361595 (12 May 1902)

The fact that there was never any mention of his having a connection with St Kilda (as opposed to Richmond) is clearly another problem. This one does really need to be sorted out, because there's almost no chance the records have it correct. If you look at what was posted starting back on page 29 (#706 >) it's very likely the St Kilda player was William K. Richardson, who died 10/07/1903 at/near Euroa, aged just 23.

Event Death
Event registration number 9534
Registration year 1903

Personal information
Family name RICHARDSON
Given names Wm Kindell
Father's name Richardson Wm Geo
Mother's name Elizth Raffey (Meadway)
Place of death Euroa
Age 23
====
Event Birth
Event registration number 2790
Registration year 1880

Personal information
Family name RICHARDSON
Given names William Kendall
Father's name Wm Geo
Mother's name Elizabeth (Medway)
Place of birth GLONG

It's certainly confusing when looking through some of the posts on this topic from 30 odd pages ago, especially seeing that an A. Richardson went from St Kilda to Perth FC early in 1904. There obviously was more than one Richardson at St Kilda around that time, but it still surely can't have been the Richmond player, who had come from Sale.
 
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35Daicos said:
George Martin is named to have played for Essendon in the round 3 1901 game vs. Fitzroy but it seems very likely that he didn't play. The Age says "Essendon were handicapped by the absence of Gavan and Martin" and The Argus "Essendon, who missed Gavin and Martin".
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/190036643 || https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10550233

The Herald on the Saturday evening doesn't mention Martin's absence but it names a lineup with just 17 players, so he may have been a late withdrawal.
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/243018020

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1901/050619010511.html

Incidentally, a player named York is in The Herald lineup at full-back for Fitzroy for the round 3 & 4 (at least) games. I've no idea who this is supposed to be!?

Edit: Oops! Much of what I have posted in this post, and the one before it, I had already brought up many, many pages ago! It does still need to be looked at and completely sorted out, however!!
Click to expand...

The Sportsman issue early the next week after the Fitzroy/Essendon match also notes that
Martin was absent: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/228146149
 
the croucher said:
The Sportsman issue early the next week after the Fitzroy/Essendon match also notes that
Martin was absent: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/228146149
Click to expand...
Thanks for that. After I posted a fair bit of stuff about Richardson and Martin last night I noticed it had been pretty much covered quite a while back, but never mind! I'm not sure that we came up with replacement players for them in the game(s) they missed, however, and (if so) we do need that to finish the job.

I see the Sportsman article gives a mention to "York" of Fitzroy: "They played one of their defence men under the Royal alias " York," but his performance did
not justify a knighthood or any specially eulogistic press notice." Jack Deas appears to be the player. Not sure what the story was with that!
 
35Daicos said:
Thanks for that. After I posted a fair bit of stuff about Richardson and Martin last night I noticed it had been pretty much covered quite a while back, but never mind! I'm not sure that we came up with replacement players for them in the game(s) they missed, however, and (if so) we do need that to finish the job.

I see the Sportsman article gives a mention to "York" of Fitzroy: "They played one of their defence men under the Royal alias " York," but his performance did
not justify a knighthood or any specially eulogistic press notice." Jack Deas appears to be the player. Not sure what the story was with that!
Click to expand...

Perhaps reality hits...the early records appear to be such a mixed bag of evidence, assumption and "list has to be complete" that the truth has not come through as it ought.

There may be some matches where a player's name is unknown,
and we shouldn't shy away from accepting that, as unpalatable as it may be.


re: Deas. Yes, I think you are right.
He is certainly named in the match report of the local Fitzroy paper when reviewing the match the next week: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/65669415

The Duke of York was visiting the country in preparation for opening the first Commonwealth Parliament in Melbourne so perhaps that can be seen as an explanation, though quite how it links to name use I'm not sure.
 
I’ve come across a discrepancy in the records for Lewis Jones – played one game for St Kilda in Rd 17 1904.
Existing records I can see (AFL Encyc, Wikipedia, AFL Tables, australianfootball.com, Harder Than Football) have his identity as:

Full name Lewis Alfred Jones
Date of birth 28 October 1886
Date of death 7 July 1960 (aged 73)

In trying to identify a place of birth/death I think the dates of birth/death relate to two different individuals

A. Lewis Alfred Jones / Alfred Lewis Jones

Born 28 Oct 1886 in Collingwood
Vic BDM gives parents Robert Jones & Lily Frances Anderson

In 1910 married Jessie Ferguson (using name Alfred Jones)

Enlisted to serve in WWI & WWII (Alfred Louis Jones)
https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/person/10092
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=576523

Appears in electoral rolls in South Yarra, Richmond area as Alfred Lewis Jones along with Jessie

Died 1965 in Moe, Victoria
Vic BDM has parents Robert & unknown

B. Louis/Lewis Alfred Jones

Born 20 Dec 1883 in St Kilda (name Louis Alfred Jones; birth registered in 1884)
Vic BDM gives parents Henry Joseph Jones & Rebecca Harrison McNeil

In 1914 married Mary Judith McIntosh (1881 – 1958)

Enlisted to serve in WWI: https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/person/11502
(note age on enlistment matches a Dec 1884 birth date)
*This is the service record cited in Harder Than Football

Appears in electoral rolls in St Kilda for all of his life (with Mary)

Died 7 July 1960 in South Melbourne
Vic BDM has parents Henry Joseph & Isabelle Kelly (this was actually his grandmother’s name - as his wife had died and there were no children mentioned in death notice I suspect informant was not immediate family and made an error)
Death Notice: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=MAUTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Sa8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=7041,1297444
Grave (with Mary Judith): https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/148592663/lewis-jones

note: On Ancestry almost every tree that contains these two individuals has them mixed up in some regard.

Looking at Trove the only reference I can see to Jones is in the team listing in the Herald the day before his only match. Nothing provides much of a clue as to who the correct player is (or if it is someone else entirely). Personally I lean towards "B" due to the St Kilda location and the "SPORTSMENS' UNIT" stamp on the front page of his WWI service record.

EDIT: and then I saw this... apologies for the repetition!!!
the croucher said:
Have had a glance but cannot see that concerns have previously been raised about
Lewis Jones (St Kilda 1 game in 1904)
Click to expand...
 
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WhiteHartLane23 said:
I’ve come across a discrepancy in the records for Lewis Jones – played one game for St Kilda in Rd 17 1904.
Existing records I can see (AFL Encyc, Wikipedia, AFL Tables, australianfootball.com, Harder Than Football) have his identity as:

Full name Lewis Alfred Jones
Date of birth 28 October 1886
Date of death 7 July 1960 (aged 73)

In trying to identify a place of birth/death I think the dates of birth/death relate to two different individuals

A. Lewis Alfred Jones / Alfred Lewis Jones

Born 28 Oct 1886 in Collingwood
Vic BDM gives parents Robert Jones & Lily Frances Anderson

In 1910 married Jessie Ferguson (using name Alfred Jones)

Enlisted to serve in WWI & WWII (Alfred Louis Jones)
https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/person/10092
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=576523

Appears in electoral rolls in South Yarra, Richmond area as Alfred Lewis Jones along with Jessie

Died 1965 in Moe, Victoria
Vic BDM has parents Robert & unknown

B. Louis/Lewis Alfred Jones

Born 20 Dec 1883 in St Kilda (name Louis Alfred Jones; birth registered in 1884)
Vic BDM gives parents Henry Joseph Jones & Rebecca Harrison McNeil

In 1914 married Mary Judith McIntosh (1881 – 1958)

Enlisted to serve in WWI: https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/person/11502
(note age on enlistment matches a Dec 1884 birth date)
*This is the service record cited in Harder Than Football

Appears in electoral rolls in St Kilda for all of his life (with Mary)

Died 7 July 1960 in South Melbourne
Vic BDM has parents Henry Joseph & Isabelle Kelly (this was actually his grandmother’s name - as his wife had died and there were no children mentioned in death notice I suspect informant was not immediate family and made an error)
Death Notice: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=MAUTAAAAIBAJ&sjid=Sa8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=7041,1297444
Grave (with Mary Judith): https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/148592663/lewis-jones

note: On Ancestry almost every tree that contains these two individuals has them mixed up in some regard.

Looking at Trove the only reference I can see to Jones is in the team listing in the Herald the day before his only match. Nothing provides much of a clue as to who the correct player is (or if it is someone else entirely). Personally I lean towards "B" due to the St Kilda location and the "SPORTSMENS' UNIT" stamp on the front page of his WWI service record.

EDIT: and then I saw this... apologies for the repetition!!!
Click to expand...

No worries ! Glad someone else had same conclusion using similar sources.
 

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rbartlett said:
35Daicos did you want to raise the Martin query to Stephen Rodgers?
And I'll raise him the Archie Richardson query.
Click to expand...
Please pass on the Martin story yourself, if you're happy to do that. There's no real doubt that he didn't play that game, but (as has been mentioned) figuring out who took his place is still an issue.

Best of luck with the Archie Richardson story! Reading through quite a bit of it again last night it's very interesting to say the least. It looks like there could have been as many as three Richardson's who played at St Kilda (not just the one) between 1898-1901, but the Richmond (VFA) player still looks to have no connection to St Kilda for mine.
 
So Stephen Rodgers will be tackling the Archie Richardson saga next week.
He did say "hypothetically" if we say the 1900 player is William Kendall Richardson, then do we have a hypothetical name for the 1898 Richardson, and the 1901 Richardson to work with?
I've looked through the thread and don't think we've landed on any names for them right.
 
Phonse Hayes played a handful of games for Fitzroy in 1926.
Currently sources list days of birth and death as (4 July 1904 – 16 April 1951)

I was trying to identify his birth / death location to add to Wikipedia and reckon both of these dates are incorrect.

The death date is for Alphonsus Hayes, died in St Kilda (reported age 56 – which would put his birth date abt 1895)
The birthdate seems to come from World War II enlistment of Alphonsus Hayes http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=591894
Birth place Limerick, Ireland. My guess is this is the same person and he lied about his age on enlistment.
However, I could not find any record of him in Australia before World War II which made me curious.

So I went looking at Trove looking for details of his playing career and found a permit showing Phonse Hayes came from South Ballarat (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article201634284) Then I found this article: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205810127 which indicated his brother John Hayes (1903-1977) played for Fitzroy the following year.

Back to Ancestry/BDM and I found parents Michael Hayes & Anastasia Holland lived in Ballarat and had sons:
  • Michael Alphonsus Hayes
  • John Hayes
… and the family all moved to Fitzroy in 1926. Seems highly likely the player Phonse Hayes was Michael Alphonsus Hayes

Michael Alphonsus Hayes was born in Sebastopol, Victoria in 1900 (If anyone can find an exact DOB that would be great)
From about 1930 onwards he went by the name Michael Alfred Hayes
He died in Hamilton, Victoria on 22/07/1976 (exact date from probate record on Ancestry)
 

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WhiteHartLane23 said:
Phonse Hayes played a handful of games for Fitzroy in 1926.
Currently sources list days of birth and death as (4 July 1904 – 16 April 1951)

I was trying to identify his birth / death location to add to Wikipedia and reckon both of these dates are incorrect.

The death date is for Alphonsus Hayes, died in St Kilda (reported age 56 – which would put his birth date abt 1895)
The birthdate seems to come from World War II enlistment of Alphonsus Hayes http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=591894
Birth place Limerick, Ireland. My guess is this is the same person and he lied about his age on enlistment.
However, I could not find any record of him in Australia before World War II which made me curious.

So I went looking at Trove looking for details of his playing career and found a permit showing Phonse Hayes came from South Ballarat (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article201634284) Then I found this article: http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205810127 which indicated his brother John Hayes (1903-1977) played for Fitzroy the following year.

Back to Ancestry/BDM and I found parents Michael Hayes & Anastasia Holland lived in Ballarat and had sons:
  • Michael Alphonsus Hayes
  • John Hayes
… and the family all moved to Fitzroy in 1926. Seems highly likely the player Phonse Hayes was Michael Alphonsus Hayes

Michael Alphonsus Hayes was born in Sebastopol, Victoria in 1900 (If anyone can find an exact DOB that would be great)
From about 1930 onwards he went by the name Michael Alfred Hayes
He died in Hamilton, Victoria on 22/07/1976 (exact date from probate record on Ancestry)
Click to expand...

The father's death occurred on 10 November 1928 in the Fitzroy district, and the list of children's names includes a son named Alf, and the notice published on Monday 12 November also includes "..(late of Ballarat).."
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/...|l-state=Victoria|||l-category=Family+Notices
 
Ernie McDougall played a few games for SM in 1902-03.
Current DOD for him in all sources I have found is 1 June 1962.

Born in Melb to John Duncan McDougall and Ellen Shanahan, he became a dentist and moved to the UK and enlisted to serve in WWI.

On 23 Dec 1917 he married Gladwyn Sophia Price at St Pauls, Kensington, London (father listed as John Duncan McDougall; occupation dental surgeon with Australian military forces)

Looking at England & Wales National Probate Calendar on Ancestry it has Ernest James McDougall dying on 15 March 1963 in Corwen, Wales with probate granted to Gladwys Sophia McDougall, widow. This appears current DOD in football records is incorrect
 
It looks like someone may have read my post from the other night (one of the many posts that unfortunately disappeared due to the "glitch" that occurred) and changed Geelong's Brandan Parfitt's DOB on his Wikipedia page.

If it was someone here thanks a lot for doing that. I was about to point out that it still wasn't quite right, as it said 24 April 1998 when it should be 27 April 1998, but it's just been changed again to the correct DOB!!!
 

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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

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