Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[GreyCrow]

Henry Yager 1 game for Fitzroy

DOB 1874 listed DOD 1915

The DoD is incorrect

YAGER Henry Birth
<Unknown Family Name>, Sarah
LAMMIE
<Unknown Family Name>, Johann George

N FROY 1874 22802/1874

The date listed is indeed for a Henry Yager but there are different parents

Looking at his brother John Georges service record we see this https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=333932

Age at embarkation	37
Next of kin	Brother, H Yager, c/o Wilson And Peter, Park Street, Alexandria, Sydney, New South Wales

Looking in NSW BDM we then find this

YAGER HENRY 1676/1924
JOHN G SARAH
HURSTVILLE

A change is required to his DOD to 1924 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article16108556

January 1924 is the best I can find

Probate ordered in 1926 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article16305521 name listed for NOK as Bella Yager

Marriage in Vic 1908

TOBIN Bella Robertson
Marriage
YAGER, Hy

1908
4094/1908

 

[GreyCrow]

Percy James Youlden born in Victoria 1890

Died WA 1949 March 7 1949 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article47650422

Youlden

Percy J

Male

Fremantle

66

1949

*the 66 is the registration number

 

[rbartlett]

Posting this from Gigs:

I believe George Parkinson and Clyde Donaldson have been incorrectly credited with playing for Essendon against Richmond in Round 11, 1913, and that Rupe Lowell and Johnny Allan (Allen) played that match.

The Herald from Friday June 27th (the day before R11) states that "Belcher, Lou. Armstrong (injured), Parkinson, Donaldson, and Woolley are out" and makes no mention of Lowell and Allan — who had played the previous match — being omitted.

LINK: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/241842905

Then on Friday July 4th, the Herald reports that "Lowell, Lumsden, Griffiths, Bowe,

and Allen are absent from the Essendon eighteen this week, and in their
stead are Parkinson, Donaldson, Tait, Woolley, and Stott."

LINK: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/241829446

This accords with both Allan and Lowell playing the previous match and being omitted, and Parkinson and Donaldson RETURNING to the side.

In addition to this, the Football Record for Round 11, 1913 lists both Allan and Lowell in the team, with Lowell named to play on McCashney. This is corroborated in the match report appearing in the Melbourne Punch on July 3, which states that, "there was practically nothing on Lowell, who was up against M'Cashney".

LINK: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/176547565

It all seems to add up to me. Let me know what you think.

We haven't yet made any alterations to the australianfootball.com records: https://australianfootball.com/game/view/1258

AFL Tables: https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1913/051419130628.html

Cheers

Gigs

 

[GreyCrow]

George Youren born Yourn

Listed DoB November 1891 Vic BDM says 1892 - happy to concede 6 weeks registration time might come into play

YOURN Geo Oliver Birth
<Unknown Family Name>, Grace Mackie TREVENA
<Unknown Family Name>, Saml Geo

CLIFTON HILL 1892 2550/1892

 

[35Daicos]

George Youren born Yourn

Listed DoB November 1891 Vic BDM says 1892 - happy to concede 6 weeks registration time might come into play

YOURN Geo Oliver Birth
<Unknown Family Name>, Grace Mackie TREVENA
<Unknown Family Name>, Saml Geo

CLIFTON HILL 1892 2550/1892

I've looked into George's story before, not so much the DOB, but fair to say he led an interesting life!! He got past this 'obstacle', and married again not that long after (fathering Colin, who went on to be a star for Hawthorn)!: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244820570

ARSENIC POISON CASE - OPEN FINDING RECORDED MELBOURNE, Sunday. - Shepparton Advertiser (Vic. : 1887 - 1953) - 27 Jan 1936

The Coroner (Mr. Grant, P.M.) returned an open finding at the adjourned inquest yesterday on the Mrs. Linda Elsie Youren, of ...

trove.nla.gov.au

DIVORCE SUIT CONTESTED - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 16 Jul 1936

George Oliver Youren. of Abbotsford Grove, Ivanhoe. estate agent, was corespondent in a suit for divorce heard before Mr. Justice Martin in the First ...

trove.nla.gov.au

 

[RedmanWasHere]

So no one said to George after cheating on his missus, “Youren deep s**t?”

 

[GreyCrow]

I've looked into George's story before, not so much the DOB, but fair to say he led an interesting life!! He got past this 'obstacle', and married again not that long after (fathering Colin, who went on to be a star for Hawthorn)!: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/244820570

ARSENIC POISON CASE - OPEN FINDING RECORDED MELBOURNE, Sunday. - Shepparton Advertiser (Vic. : 1887 - 1953) - 27 Jan 1936

The Coroner (Mr. Grant, P.M.) returned an open finding at the adjourned inquest yesterday on the Mrs. Linda Elsie Youren, of ...

trove.nla.gov.au

DIVORCE SUIT CONTESTED - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 16 Jul 1936

George Oliver Youren. of Abbotsford Grove, Ivanhoe. estate agent, was corespondent in a suit for divorce heard before Mr. Justice Martin in the First ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Yes I noticed those. The poisoning is interesting

 

[35Daicos]

Yes I noticed those. The poisoning is interesting

It does make interesting reading, that story! Especially with the doctor's evidence, I find it hard to understand how he didn't spend a fair bit of time in jail!

 

[rbartlett]

I wont bore you all with every player bit by bit, but I'm going to start trying to identify as many early Richmond Juniors (Richmond Reserves players as possible)

Tigerland Archive | Reserves Players

Tigerland Archive

tigerlandarchive.org

So I'm starting in 1919 season, and basically just wondering does the below theory make sense - in that it could be the same player throughout ?

H McKee (1919) (2 games, 2 goals) (Half forward)
(Permit from Camberwell to Richmond Jnrs May 1919).
Played back with Camberwell 1920?
Camberwell 1921 ?
Camberwell 1922 ?
Tried out for Port Melbourne in March 1923?
Did he try out for Nth Melbourne in April 1923
Camberwell 1925?

 

[35Daicos]

I wont bore you all with every player bit by bit, but I'm going to start trying to identify as many early Richmond Juniors (Richmond Reserves players as possible)

Tigerland Archive | Reserves Players

Tigerland Archive

tigerlandarchive.org

So I'm starting in 1919 season, and basically just wondering does the below theory make sense - in that it could be the same player throughout ?

H McKee (1919) (2 games, 2 goals) (Half forward)
(Permit from Camberwell to Richmond Jnrs May 1919).
Played back with Camberwell 1920?
Camberwell 1921 ?
Camberwell 1922 ?
Tried out for Port Melbourne in March 1923?
Did he try out for Nth Melbourne in April 1923
Camberwell 1925?

It does look like he ended up playing for Camberwell in 1923: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2014981 || https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/2019534

It seems reasonable to me that it would be the same player all the way through. He's gone from Camberwell to Richmond Juniors, not done very well there and headed back to his old club. After playing there for a few more years he tried out with a couple of higher level clubs, but it probably didn't work out so he kept playing at Camberwell. By 1926, the year they joined the VFA, he seems to be no longer playing, so tracking down a first name (and other details) for him has proven difficult.

A McKee also played cricket for Camberwell Footballers around that time.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

I wont bore you all with every player bit by bit, but I'm going to start trying to identify as many early Richmond Juniors (Richmond Reserves players as possible)

Tigerland Archive | Reserves Players

Tigerland Archive

tigerlandarchive.org

So I'm starting in 1919 season, and basically just wondering does the below theory make sense - in that it could be the same player throughout ?

H McKee (1919) (2 games, 2 goals) (Half forward)
(Permit from Camberwell to Richmond Jnrs May 1919).
Played back with Camberwell 1920?
Camberwell 1921 ?
Camberwell 1922 ?
Tried out for Port Melbourne in March 1923?
Did he try out for Nth Melbourne in April 1923
Camberwell 1925?

Is there a list with question marks you're sifting through?

 

[rbartlett]

R Craven who played for Richmond Juniors in 1919 is Richard Blackmore Craven.
He served in WW1, there's a few articles written on him in 1919 Richmond Guardian. His parents seem deceased by 1919.
I'm just struck trying to find his Birth on BDM site.
I can see his death - Dec 17, 1966 , aged 71 (parents listed as unknown), but not the corresponding birth
His War Record (SERV 415) says he was born in Armadale around 1895-96.

Am I doing something wrong ?

 

[35Daicos]

R Craven who played for Richmond Juniors in 1919 is Richard Blackmore Craven.
He served in WW1, there's a few articles written on him in 1919 Richmond Guardian. His parents seem deceased by 1919.
I'm just struck trying to find his Birth on BDM site.
I can see his death - Dec 17, 1966 , aged 71 (parents listed as unknown), but not the corresponding birth
His War Record (SERV 415) says he was born in Armadale around 1895-96.

Am I doing something wrong ?

I can't find him there, either!

CAREERS OF THE FALLEN - Captain C. H. Kluglein, - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 27 May 1915

(Killed in action) was born at Makerewa, New Zealand, in 1894, and has been a well known resident of Carlton for fifteen years, being associated with St. Jude's Church of ...

trove.nla.gov.au

This would be his siblings' details:


The Geo(rge) Cleaver could be a match for the middle one of these three:


Perhaps Herbert may be the B (for Bert) Craven? The other two boys died very young.

The sister even married a Richmond player (first husband)!: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/93813395

Tigerland Archive | Charlie Wells

Tigerland Archive

www.tigerlandarchive.org

In case George Cleaver Craven is one of yours as well (it has to be extremely likely) here's his death notice: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/205676797

And this is his DOB (from Ancestry - it's shown in his War records):

He fronted up for both World Wars, but served at home for WWII.

 

[rbartlett]

I agree with you on the above.
B Craven I will list as Herbert Craven
"Cleave" Craven I'll put as George Cleaver Craven
L Craven I will leave as is at the moment. It could simply be an initial typo for his one game in 1919 and is meant to be B Craven.
And thanks Daics, you've also uncovered a new War player. (of which I suspect there will be many more during this loong process)

 

[GreyCrow]

R Craven who played for Richmond Juniors in 1919 is Richard Blackmore Craven.
He served in WW1, there's a few articles written on him in 1919 Richmond Guardian. His parents seem deceased by 1919.
I'm just struck trying to find his Birth on BDM site.
I can see his death - Dec 17, 1966 , aged 71 (parents listed as unknown), but not the corresponding birth
His War Record (SERV 415) says he was born in Armadale around 1895-96.

Am I doing something wrong ?

No

One article mentions he is the oldest son - given the deaths of earlier children - I assume this means living. Yet because of the gap between 1892-98 it makes it hard to confirm

1. The record is missing
2. Parents didnt register him
3. He is adopted

Yet other searches using Blackmore or name variations dont help

 

[rbartlett]

Okay, J. Slattery played for Richmond Reserves in 1925.
I was at a loss who it was until I discovered in Annual Report they congratulated him for getting married during 1925.
So BDM only show one J Slattery married that year - to Ellen O'Halloran (a famous name for Richmond, I wonder).
This site says that James (Jim) was born on Feb 8 1900. https://www.myheritage.com/names/ellen_o'halloran
So in BDM it brings up 4 results when I do Slattery, J* I'm thinking its the 3rd one - but i can't find a corresponding death. Help?

 

[35Daicos]

Okay, J. Slattery played for Richmond Reserves in 1925.
I was at a loss who it was until I discovered in Annual Report they congratulated him for getting married during 1925.
So BDM only show one J Slattery married that year - to Ellen O'Halloran (a famous name for Richmond, I wonder).
This site says that James (Jim) was born on Feb 8 1900. https://www.myheritage.com/names/ellen_o'halloran
So in BDM it brings up 4 results when I do Slattery, J* I'm thinking its the 3rd one - but i can't find a corresponding death. Help?View attachment 850320

It might be that it's this chap:

He was born in 1900, but died too late for it to be shown on BDM.
Edit: Yes, looks like it (from Ancestry):

 

[GreyCrow]

Given the age this might be a possibility - from Ryersons - snap

[TD valign="top"]SLATTERY[/TD][TD valign="top"]James[/TD][TD valign="top"]Death notice[/TD][TD valign="top"]03JUL1996[/TD][TD valign="top"]Death[/TD][TD valign="top"]96[/TD][TD valign="top"]at Golden Oaks Nursing Home, Bendigo[/TD][TD valign="top"]The Age (Melbourne)[/TD][TD valign="top"]05JUL1996[/TD]

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Given the age this might be a possibility - from Ryersons - snap

[TD valign="top"]SLATTERY[/TD][TD valign="top"]James[/TD][TD valign="top"]Death notice[/TD][TD valign="top"]03JUL1996[/TD][TD valign="top"]Death[/TD][TD valign="top"]96[/TD][TD valign="top"]at Golden Oaks Nursing Home, Bendigo[/TD][TD valign="top"]The Age (Melbourne)[/TD][TD valign="top"]05JUL1996[/TD]

Just slightly beaten to it.

 

[rbartlett]

Looking through 1992 The Age newspapers.
Looks like the current start times AFL Tables has for a lot of the matches are incorrect.
The Age published a PREVIEW page every Friday, or Sunday, with team/head to head/ and a start time.
A quick glance on 19 July , page 59 (Rd 18) shows start times listed as Stk vs WCE at 2.08pm, same with Adel vs Melb, Rich vs Geel is at 2pm.
Rd 12 previews (6 June 1992, page 28) show Ess vs Richmond at 2pm , Carl vs Geel at 2.08pm, Bris vs Melb at 2.15pm, Fit vs Footscray at 2,08pm

None of their scheduled start times seem to be 2.10pm which is what's listed through the whole season.
Obviously minor details in the scheme of things, but I'll alert Paul to those specific entries, and at some point do a whole sweep of the season to see what each Round has.

 

[rbartlett]

35Daicos contacted me with evidence that pretty much shows that Norm Le Brun, who played for South Melb, Coll, Essendon ,Carlton had also played with Richmond Reserves - and as a result of his death in WW2, should be added to my War death page.
I'm pretty confident 35Daicos is correct, though because its such an important addition (our War death page), I'm just looking for the final piece of jigsaw that connects him all together.

Norm Le Brun
1925- Richmond Reserves (1 game)
1926 ? (possibly Moorabbin, or Fish Creek)
1927 ? (possibly Moorabbin, or Fish Creek)
1928 ? (possibly Moorabbin, or Fish Creek)
1929 - Sth Melb
1930 - Sandhurst
1931-32 Essendon
1933-34 - Collingwood
1935 - Carlton
1936 - Griffiths
1937 - South Warrnambool

I've made a determination today, that the Le Burn in RFC Reserves 1925 will be listed as Norm Le Brun who played Sth, Coll, Ess, Carl etc.
I can't see who else the Le Brun could be, and the permit from Richmond to Sth in 1929 indicates he would have played with Richmond (hence the 1925 Reserves match of one game). The fact he was born and grew up in Richmond helps the argument as well. He would have been 17 years of age when he played the 1 Reserves game.
This means Richmond add a new player to their war death.

Before I do, just checking if anyone has an alternate view as to why the player couldn't/wouldn't be Norm Le Brun.

 

[rbartlett]

 

[rbartlett]

Attention:
Spreadsheet entries 1 - 120 are now updated with SR's/AFLs response. Link is on page 1. These affect everyone - so *Paul* Oliver Gigacz GreyCrow 35Daicos Gibbsy and anyone Ive missed.
Most are accepted so well done everyone.
As said before if we take out a player for a match and dont put one in , AFL won't make change. That want a name. (Their rule, not mine).
So we are pretty much now up to date with the spreadsheet.
I'll do a look over the last 10 pages and work from Sept 2019 onwards and place that on a new tab on the spreadsheet titled 2020.

 

[Supermercado]

Change in field umpire for Round 3, 1926 - Melbourne vs North Melbourne

AFL Tables shows the named umpire Mutch, but he was a late withdrawal due to flu, replaced by Payne. Source



This appears to be the only game umpired by Payne.

 

[Oliver G]

Attention:
Spreadsheet entries 1 - 120 are now updated with SR's/AFLs response. Link is on page 1. These affect everyone - so *Paul* Oliver Gigacz GreyCrow 35Daicos Gibbsy and anyone Ive missed.
Most are accepted so well done everyone.
As said before if we take out a player for a match and dont put one in , AFL won't make change. That want a name. (Their rule, not mine).
So we are pretty much now up to date with the spreadsheet.
I'll do a look over the last 10 pages and work from Sept 2019 onwards and place that on a new tab on the spreadsheet titled 2020.

Thanks Rhett and to all who have contributed. AF is now up to date with all the confirmed changes.