Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[GreyCrow]

Does anyone have an existing Ancestry account please?
I'm trying to locate a family member of Billy Wilson (RFC) who died young in 1967

Bill Wilson (footballer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Are there any active trees on Ancestry?
Cheers

There is a tree of an active user ( on site yesterday)

There is actually 21 trees but this seems most closest

 

[rbartlett]

View attachment 2097623

There is a tree of an active user ( on site yesterday)

There is actually 21 trees but this seems most closest

GreyCrow , do you have the option of sending a message to the active user on my behalf, asking them to reach out to me (the Richmond Football Club Historian) on rhettrospective@gmail.com

Is that possible for you to do please?

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

GreyCrow , do you have the option of sending a message to the active user on my behalf, asking them to reach out to me (the Richmond Football Club Historian) on rhettrospective@gmail.com

Is that possible for you to do please?

Bill Wilson's wife was Merle Ruby Wilson (nee Neilson) who died in 2013 (the linked notice clearly names her as wife of the footballer!) - unfortunately none of the death notices I can find name the children, but from Ancestry trees he had three children

1. William Phillip Wilson (1951-2005) - he had son
2. Moana Teressa Wilson (married name was Lea, now seems to have returned to Wilson) - who is still alive and running businesses in Mount Gravatt area of Brisbane and has children - she must be around 65-70 by now and may be traceable
3. Another son (can't find a name but was living)

Moana Lea-Wilson has a tree on Ancestry but in was created in 2007 and looks like it hasn't been updated in the last 10 years (her mother's death is the most recent event in the tree)

 

[rbartlett]

Bill Wilson's wife was Merle Ruby Wilson (nee Neilson) who died in 2013 (the linked notice clearly names her as wife of the footballer!) - unfortunately none of the death notices I can find name the children, but from Ancestry trees he had three children

1. William Phillip Wilson (1951-2005) - he had son
2. Moana Teressa Wilson (married name was Lea, now seems to have returned to Wilson) - who is still alive and running businesses in Mount Gravatt area of Brisbane and has children - she must be around 65-70 by now and may be traceable
3. Another son (can't find a name but was living)

Moana Lea-Wilson has a tree on Ancestry but in was created in 2007 and looks like it hasn't been updated in the last 10 years (her mother's death is the most recent event in the tree)

Thank you. There is a postal address on one of those links so I may send a letter to it. I've also put a post in the Upper Mt Gravatt facebook group - so I assume somewhere there will know her.
As well, separate to that, GreyCrow has send a Ancestry DM to one of the tree owners. So hopefully one of those pay off. Many thanks to you both.

 

[Gibbsy]

Wonder how many of these old-school misspellings are still floating around the league's records.

Lyall Anderson is almost certainly Lyle Anderson.

KORNIES 1959 'SCOREBOARD' SERIES - FOOTSCRAY: John Schultz & Lyle Anderson, cards #14 & 15 [2/36]; G/VG. (2).

KORNIES 1959 'SCOREBOARD' SERIES - FOOTSCRAY: John Schultz & Lyle Anderson, cards #14 & 15 [2/36]; G/VG. (2).

auctions.leski.com.au

I don't think he's signing his name differently to how it's spelt!

Lyle would be coming up 88 years of age soon. There's no evidence to suggest he isn't still with us. Unfortunately that Facebook post from Lyle's granddaughter can no longer be accessed.

 

[35Daicos]

Wonder how many of these old-school misspellings are still floating around the league's records.

Lyall Anderson is almost certainly Lyle Anderson.

KORNIES 1959 'SCOREBOARD' SERIES - FOOTSCRAY: John Schultz & Lyle Anderson, cards #14 & 15 [2/36]; G/VG. (2).

KORNIES 1959 'SCOREBOARD' SERIES - FOOTSCRAY: John Schultz & Lyle Anderson, cards #14 & 15 [2/36]; G/VG. (2).

auctions.leski.com.au

I don't think he's signing his name differently to how it's spelt!

View attachment 2099211

Lyle would be coming up 88 years of age soon. There's no evidence to suggest he isn't still with us. Unfortunately that Facebook post from Lyle's granddaughter can no longer be accessed.

The papers nearly always have it as Lyle (even when he was playing cricket as a junior), so it's hard to see where Lyall came from! This is probably his marriage:

Could it be that Lyle Anderson Reserve at Highett is named after him?

This is how they had it quite a few years back on the AFL Historical Statistics site:

The Encyclopedia still has it as Lyall, and obviously Wikipedia and others do too, but it's quite likely the AFL changed it at some stage, and perhaps didn't let anyone know!

 

[rbartlett]

Summary: Lyall Anderson is Lyle Anderson

Lyall Anderson - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[stemline]

Behind correction 1992 R11 WB v Haw

All references have Hawthorn's Dean Anderson kicking 1 behind in this game and Anthony Condon none.

Per below vid, Condon kicks Hawthorn's 8th behind of the game. Anderson does not kick a behind in this game.



Summary -
1992 Rnd 11 WB v Haw - Anthony Condon plus 1 behind, Dean Anderson minus 1 behind.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Tom Mullens (Carlton, Footscray) has death of 9 August 1961 in online footy records (wiki, blueseum, af.com)

Death notices show date of death was 4 August 1961 and cemetery record shows burial was 8 August 1961 so 9th is clearly incorrect.

Summary: Death date for Tom Mullens is 4 August 1961 (rather than 9 August 1961)
Oliver G The Blueseum

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Jack Kidd (Carlton, Essendon, Fitzroy) has death of 26 February 1960 in online footy records (wiki, blueseum, af.com)

Death notices show date of death was 26 March 1960 and cemetery record shows cremation was 29 March 1960 - looks like a simple month data entry error.

Summary: Death date for Jack Kidd is 26 March 1960 (rather than 26 Feb 1960)
Oliver G The Blueseum

 

[35Daicos]

A video of the last quarter of this 1957 Rd. 4 game (Collingwood vs. South Melbourne) has been posted elsewhere:




https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1957/041619570511.html || https://australianfootball.com/game/view/5839

The game's records have two South players wearing the numbers 2 and 20. Groves is in fact wearing 42 (3 min 25 sec in), Goldsmith 2 (4 min 30 sec in), Taylor 20 (14 min 30 sec in) and Trethowan 26 (14 min 20 sec in).

Summary: Change South Melbourne's Percy Groves to #42 and John Trethowan to #26.
Oliver G *Paul*

 

[the croucher]

Hi all,

Long time follower of this thread, but first-time poster. Pretty new to this, so hopefully I'm not breaking any of the rules / etiquette by posting here. I do apologise if so. Basically, I too (like many here) have built a database / website for footy records across various leagues. An oddity I came across about a year ago, that I've been trying to reconcile for quite some time now, is what is currently accepted for:

Thornton (Tom) Gainsborough Clarke (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thornton_Clarke) (b. 27 Nov 1891), who played 6 games for Fitzroy in 1911. It is also commonly accepted that he came from Mt. Lyell (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/10902905) prior to playing for Fitzroy.

Where this begins to become inconsistent with other recorded history is that the same Thornton Clarke is noted for having played for Essendon Association (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/74592229/7216135). In fact, he is often referred to in post-game reports and anecdotes (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/269638870) and is even noted as having been awarded the Jim 'Frosty' Miller Medal twice (1913 & 1914). Not only do records indicate that he played for Essendon Association in the VFA during 1910-1915 (which raises questions whether he could have played for Fitzroy or have been in Tasmania during this time), the earlier article noting that he played for Essendon Association (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/74592229/7216135) does not mention having played for either Fitzroy or near Mt. Lyell. It can be noted it was an Essendon-based publication, but it is worth noting.

Obviously, the above alone is not enough to say that the person could not have played for both Essendon Association and Fitzroy, however The Age notes in separate reports from the same day (published on 22 May 1911) about matches played on 20 May 1911 that a "Clarke, a giant from Mount Lyell (Tasmania)" played for Fitzroy against St Kilda (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196205921) and that a "Clark (Essendon)" played for Essendon Association against Footscray (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196205917). The Essendon Gazette reports for the same Essendon Town game that this was "'Tom' Clarke" who kicked 3 goals (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/269638870). It seems unlikely that a person would play in both games.

So with all of the above taken into account, I propose that perhaps the T. Clarke that played for Fitzroy in 1911 is not the Thornton Clarke who played for Essendon Association during 1910-1915, and in fact might even be the T. Clarke this is mentioned in this notice (https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/84539269) regarding the players who will represent Combined Lyell against Combined Zeehan in the Lyell Miners F. A. in 1910. This would align much more closely to the clearance permit in 1911 noting that Fitzroy T. Clarke was from Mount Lyell.

Sadly, I could not find much more. The researchers on this thread seem a lot more capable than I am with finding details on players. I certainly did not have the skills to narrow anyone down with a name as common as Thomas Clarke.

Apologies for the lengthy post. Since Thornton Clarke not being a Fitzroy player would remove someone who served in WWI from Fitzroy's history, I figured I should present a significant portion of the information that led me to make such a claim.

Hope this helps with correcting a potential inaccuracy in the official records. rbartlett - in case you happen to wonder, this is indeed the same person who emailed you earlier this year regarding A. Stevens for a Richmond reserves player.

I think there is enough evidence in the following links to confirm that Thornton (Tom) Gainsborough Clarke is not the person who played for Fitzroy in 1911.

A search of Victoria BDMs reveals Thornton Gainsboroug Clarke registered in the Essendon district with birth certificate number 32784/1891


Thornton G Clark “the popular Essendon Association forward” article in Table Talk issue of 12 December 1912
refers to him having “attained his majority “[i e turning 21 years old], which concurs with him being born at end of November/early December 1891.

Table Talk (Melbourne, Vic. : 1885 - 1939) - 12 Dec 1912 - p33

COMING EVENTS.; Advertising; Advertising; Advertising;

trove.nla.gov.au

Clarke is one of the Essendon locals done well…
“..’Wilkie’ is another of the local boys, who with such others as Jack Anderson, Norm Busbridge, Tom Clarke, Jack Lewis, Billy French (last years recruit), have demonstrated that it is absolutely unnecessary to go out of the district for first class footballers.”

GOSSIP ON THE GAME. - The Essendon Gazette and Keilor, Bulla and Broadmeadows Reporter (Moonee Ponds, Vic. : 1905 - 1918) - 13 Jul 1911

The game on Saturday was not a good one to watch. The players were inclined to ‘mix it’ too much. The umpire’s warning finger went up ...

trove.nla.gov.au

search for WW1 records at NAA

Search & Retrieve - Exception error

in item field enter 1970231
then when that record for Thornton Gainsborough Clarke is returned on right hand side click view digital copy and a 49 page document becomes visible. Note his signature uses the Clarke spelling, not Clark.
pages 43 and 44 of that document include extracts from other soldiers about his death and some of them refer to him as “Tom.”

Now we'll just have to double check details for Thomas Augustine Clark/Clarke of Tasmania to lodge him as the replacement name and DOB.

 

[McPang]

I think there is enough evidence in the following links to confirm that Thornton (Tom) Gainsborough Clarke is not the person who played for Fitzroy in 1911.

A search of Victoria BDMs reveals Thornton Gainsboroug Clarke registered in the Essendon district with birth certificate number 32784/1891


Thornton G Clark “the popular Essendon Association forward” article in Table Talk issue of 12 December 1912
refers to him having “attained his majority “[i e turning 21 years old], which concurs with him being born at end of November/early December 1891.

Table Talk (Melbourne, Vic. : 1885 - 1939) - 12 Dec 1912 - p33

COMING EVENTS.; Advertising; Advertising; Advertising;

trove.nla.gov.au

Clarke is one of the Essendon locals done well…
“..’Wilkie’ is another of the local boys, who with such others as Jack Anderson, Norm Busbridge, Tom Clarke, Jack Lewis, Billy French (last years recruit), have demonstrated that it is absolutely unnecessary to go out of the district for first class footballers.”

GOSSIP ON THE GAME. - The Essendon Gazette and Keilor, Bulla and Broadmeadows Reporter (Moonee Ponds, Vic. : 1905 - 1918) - 13 Jul 1911

The game on Saturday was not a good one to watch. The players were inclined to ‘mix it’ too much. The umpire’s warning finger went up ...

trove.nla.gov.au

search for WW1 records at NAA

Search & Retrieve - Exception error

in item field enter 1970231
then when that record for Thornton Gainsborough Clarke is returned on right hand side click view digital copy and a 49 page document becomes visible. Note his signature uses the Clarke spelling, not Clark.
pages 43 and 44 of that document include extracts from other soldiers about his death and some of them refer to him as “Tom.”

Now we'll just have to double check details for Thomas Augustine Clark/Clarke of Tasmania to lodge him as the replacement name and DOB.

Sounds good! Thanks for continuing to look into this one. I did come across the name Thomas Augustine Clarke when looking through the births index of Tasmania, but I wasn't confident enough (in myself, mostly) to bring it up in the initial post. But I'm glad we're all on the same page! Hope we manage to resolve this one!

 

[Oliver G]

Thanks to a video posted by rbartlett of the R14 1970 St Kilda v Footscray match, the jumper number of Richard Radziminski has come into question, the video clearly shows a Footscray player wearing #27 wrestling with St Kilda's Manzie but no #27 had been listed as playing for Footscray in any online records.

The Age identified the player as Richard Radziminski and further investigation has revealed that Radziminski started the season in jumper #32 but by R14 had moved to #27, so we can comfortably say that Radziminski wore #27 in R14, R19 and R20, but further investigation will need to be done on when the actual change happened and if any more games need to be updated.

Thanks to Rhett, Mark Romage and Peter Foot for the investigative work.

Summary: Richard Radziminski (Footscray) wore jumper #27 in R14, R19, and R20 1970, he was previously listed as wearing #32.

 

[ThePope]

Lyle would be coming up 88 years of age soon. There's no evidence to suggest he isn't still with us. Unfortunately that Facebook post from Lyle's granddaughter can no longer be accessed.

Still there. Both Lyle and his wife are still alive as of last year. Tarren has a locked profile, but might accept messages:

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/gzehYcVQfLN94CtW/

 

[stemline]

1992 R13 - Haw v Fitz - Half Time Score Correction

All references have Fitzroy's half-time score as 8.4 52. Correct score for Fitzroy at half time of this game is 8.3 51.

All references have Fitzroy kicking 5 behinds in the 3rd qtr. They kick 6.

As shown in the below video:

• There is a dis-allowed behind for Fitzroy in the 2nd qtr that creates the confusion.
• The half time score is corrected on the telecast at the start of the 3rd qtr
• Fitzroy kick 6 behinds in the 3rd qtr (not 5), to be on the recorded score of 10.9 at 3QT.

Summary:
1992 Rnd 13 Haw v Fitz - Correct Fitzroy's Half Time score from 8.4 (52) to 8.3 (51). All other qxq score remain the same.

 

[stemline]

Behind correction 1992 R24 Melb v Haw

All refrences have Hawthorn's Jason Taylor kicking no behinds in this game, with 3 Rushed for Hawthorn.

Per below video, Taylor kicks 1 behind, Hawthorn's 14th of the game. There are only 2 Rushed behinds, all other scores align.



Summary:
1992 Rnd 24 Melb v Haw - Jason Taylor plus 1 behind, Rushed for Hawthorn minus 1 behind.

 

[stemline]

Behind correction 1993 Rnd 4 Haw v Geel

All references have Hawthorn's Darren Baxter kicking 1 behind in this game, and John Platten none.

Per below vid, Platten kicks 1 behind, Hawthorn's 2nd. Baxter does not score in this game. All other scores align.



Summary -
1993 Rnd 4 Haw v Geel - John Platten plus 1 behind, Darren Baxter minus 1 behind.

 

[Connor7395]

Round 3, 1930 - Fitzroy vs Melbourne - Crowd is given as 20000 on AFL Tables.

Sporting Globe gives 27000:

Hawthorn Put Up a Great Battle::Melbourne Win Right on Bell - Melbourne Just Get Home Fitzroy Four Points Down - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 17 May 1930

In a gruelling contest, full of life and action, Fitzroy emerged as a Vastly improved team. Their determination and ruggedness sorely troubled Melbourne, whose strong points were team work, pace and cleverness. ...

trove.nla.gov.au

The Argus gives 17000:

FOOTBALL. - EXCITING LEAGUE GAMES. CLUBS SHOW IMPROVEMENT. HAWTHORN AND FITZROY. Record Crowd at Glenferrie. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 19 May 1930

The third [?] of League matches played [?] Saturday emphasised the impressions [?] the carlier games. First it is apparent [?] Hawthorn and Fitzroy are materially ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Also of interest is the fact that most sources subtract a behind from each of Melbourne's quarter scores (except The Argus), however a check of the ladders in The Age and The Argus both gives Melbourne a points for tally of 299, which adds up correctly if the 104 score is used. Initially this post was going to be about that but I figure the crowd discrepancy is worth a check.

Given the receipts in The Argus, 17000 might be a better estimate.

Also of note, it gives Hawthorn vs Carlton at 27000 rather than 28000 and North Melbourne vs Footscray as 12000 instead of 13000.

 

[joe444]

Sorry to interrupt, but Rhett I recently commented on a youtube upload that AI can do ridiculously good things to restoring game footage. Here's an example; I'll delete this post in a couple of days when the link expires. It compares the original with the restored.

 

[GreyCrow]

Sorry to interrupt, but Rhett I recently commented on a youtube upload that AI can do ridiculously good things to restoring game footage. Here's an example; I'll delete this post in a couple of days when the link expires. It compares the original with the restored.

Nice

I know some genealogical sites are using similar photo enhancement techniques to improve old photos so this seems like a natural extension of this

 

[Gibbsy]

Sorry to interrupt, but Rhett I recently commented on a youtube upload that AI can do ridiculously good things to restoring game footage. Here's an example; I'll delete this post in a couple of days when the link expires. It compares the original with the restored.

Looks pretty good, but the buttery smooth frame rate makes it a bit soap opera esque

 

[rbartlett]

Sorry to interrupt, but Rhett I recently commented on a youtube upload that AI can do ridiculously good things to restoring game footage. Here's an example; I'll delete this post in a couple of days when the link expires. It compares the original with the restored.

Thanks Joe.
Personally I'm quite anti-AI, unless it is really brings to life very fuzzy/poor footage or audio (ie: Beatles Get Back). The Ch7 footage was a poor quality, but I thought the ABC one I uploaded is pretty good quality. I don't have the original master tapes, so I'm working off at least a first generation version. I don't need you to AI any of the videos I'm uploading , but if you feel there's a video that could use its help then do what you want I guess.

 

[joe444]

Oh sorry, rhett ... I wasn't doing it to your video at all, quite independently in fact. And I use AI only to restore it to what would have been seen on TV at the time, because the ABC film reduces the frame rate and gets very grainy. This is because they didn't record to video tape. This was quite a big deal at the time, with TV guides even specifying what medium was being used.




In short, the AI version, with the right parameters is a restoration to the live broadcast. The 'authentic' grainy, missing frame rate film version is not authentic at all. And anything uploaded to you tube converts to the wrong framerate (including that wonderful 1973 tape you have) unless it is converted from 25i to 50p.

1971 HSV 7 needs to be restored, which is taking me forever, because the master tape was destroyed in the early 80s and all we have is some guy pointing a camera (off tilt) at a TV set.

Each to their own. I find restoring footage back to what it would have been quite rewarding. Love your work and maybe you can have more luck than me getting Rohan Connolly to share his tape of the full ABC replay of the 1984 Grand Final.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

The currently recorded death date for Bill Ayling (Coll) appears to be incorrect.

Ayling was the son of (Henry) Anthony Ayling and Martha Ayling, nee Wheeler, and was born in Mitcham, South Australia on 26 March 1878


The family moved to Victoria when he was small (his sister’s birth was registered at Richmond, Victoria in 1884)

Ayling played for Port Melbourne both before and after his games with Collingwood and appears to have been living in that area – from Trove you can see he had a couple of run ins with the law for drunkenness and offensive behaviour. His last games with Port were in the 1907 season.

Electoral rolls show he was living with his mother in South Melbourne in 1908 – and was a baker by trade.

In 1909 he moved to WA, as described in http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article67284356 where the farm he jointly owned was declared bankrupt. Article also mentions he was a baker.

In 1919 he married Emma Augusta Hansen at Geraldton (the major town closest to his farm at Ogilvie, WA)

Emma died in 1948 and William shortly afterwards in early 1950 – as per WA BDM with parents for Bill matching those in birth record.

The couple are buried together at Geraldton Cemetery - headstone gives exact death date for William of 8 January 1950

Summary: Date of death for Bill Ayling to be changed to 8 January 1950