Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[Gibbsy]

Hard to get more conclusive than that, I reckon. To me it’s no different than Ablett Sr’s goal tally rising by one from 1030 to 1031 back in 2019, thanks to the fine work by those on this board.

It was such a big deal it even got a run in the media. We may see the same again.

Gary Ablett snr just added to his goal tally, 23 years after retiring

How a footy enthusiast's chance find extended the legendary forward's career total

www.afl.com.au

 

[stemline]

Ok - I'll edit the relevant posts to add a summary to each.

 

[stemline]

Looks like the error (if it's an error) was made sometime back in 1979...

This is in the 1979 Grand Final Footy Record - they've docked Matthews one goal and given it to Eade.

If I'm right, Matthews should have 31 goals, and Eade 8.



Seems at some point back then the goalkickers for those two games were altered. Perhaps there was good reason? Although all the articles I posted were pretty clear.

But I'm a little less sure now.

 

[rbartlett]

I've removed Ken Hunter as winning the 1983 Goal of the Year, as no contemporary evidence was found.
I did find contemporary evidence that Paul Meldrum won ABC 1983 GotY, and Michael Conlan won Ch7 1983 GotY and have added those in instead.

Goal of the Year (AFL) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[rbartlett]

All the suggested changes from post 8801 until noe have been added to a spreadsheet.
I will send off once at end of season, so plenty of time for more changes

 

[stemline]

Potential goal kickers error, 1979 Rounds 8 and 18.

I say potential but I’m pretty certain – it’s just that the players involved scare me a bit!

Maybe there was a reason it was altered to the current records? Anyway I’d like to get some other eyes over it before making an official submission/summary.

Scenario A (currently held records/online websites etc)
Rnd 8 Haw v Melb – Michael Moncrieff kicks 3 goals, Leigh Matthews kicks 2 goals
Rnd 18 Haw v Fitz – Michael Moncrieff kicks 4 goals, Rodney Eade kicks 1 goal

Scenario B (what I propose is correct)
Rnd 8 Haw v Melb – Michael Moncrieff kicks 2 goals, Leigh Matthews kicks 3 goals
Rnd 18 Haw v Fitz – Michael Moncrieff kicks 5 goals, Rodney Eade kicks 0 goals

End result would be Matthews gains a goal to go to 916. Eade loses one and drops to 45. Moncrieff stays on 629.

See posts below…

This one has grown legs - I spoke to Peter Haby about it and Stephen Rodgers is across it as well... Sounds like both Hawthorn and the AFL are in initial agreement on a change being required. Wait and see I guess.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Sorry, to interrupt the fantastic work being done here with another behind inaccuracy, but... All references for the 1991 Grand Final Hawthorn v West Coast have Hawthorn's Darrin Pritchard kicking 1 behind and Ray Jencke kicking none.

From this video at the 48:27 mark it couldn't be much clearer that Jencke hits the post with a long range shot. Darrin Pritchard doesn't appear to kick a behind in this game.

Similar to 1989, the newspapers of the following day had it correct (Jencke 1, Pritchard 0) so it's hard to see where this error has come from.

As for Darrin Pritchard's grand final behinds (1989 & 1991), the behind god giveth, and the behind god taketh away.



Summary -
1991 GF (Haw v WC), Ray Jencke plus 1 behind, Darrin Pritchard minus 1 behind.

Bumping this old post.


Funny how Jencke and Pritchard were mixed up with this erroneous behind attribution.

In the 1990 AFL finals series, the Record from the Hawks-Dees game gives Darrin Pritchard the headshot of Ray Jencke's and keeps Jencke's original headshot for himself.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Also, not sure if this is a good place for it but, the Fitzroy and Brisbane Lions Historical Society FB page is now down to 14 players without a photo.

Maurie Barrett the latest to be unmasked.

 

[Supermercado]

Rogers also advised me of a change to a Melbourne players record.
Lynda Carroll has written a lengthy email to him, and rather than paste it here , I'll extract some of the info
To cut a long story short, the Jim Dorgan currently with Melbourne 1949, and then Sth Melb 1951-1958 are infact two different people.

"On Grand Final Day, a gentleman visited the MCC Library and asked to look at the Encyclopedia of League Footballers. His name is Pete Dorgan
Essentially, his problem is that the J Dorgan on record - in the Encyclopedia, in afltables, everywhere else - is actually TWO PEOPLE.
Pete's father was John (or Jack - John Walter 'Black Jack') Dorgan. The notes I got from Pete were:

Mr. John Dorgan
Played in Melbourne Seconds in 1948, 49 - ??? [can probably confirm further]
Won Best and Fairest in 1948 in the Reserves [can confirm]
Played 3 senior games in 1949.

Using Trove...
"Jack Dorgan won the Echuca B&F, mentioned as former Melbourne Seconds and Williamstown player, Riverine Herald, 2 October 1951. This is a good detail, because Jim played five games for South Melbourne in 1951."

"Jim Dorgan, South Melbourne's reliable back pocket player," The Age, 3 March 1954

OK. We've got John/Jack and Jim - two people
So - there were more articles in 1954, and Jim Dorgan was more cemented at South Melbourne in that year - played 18 games after suffering a broken leg the year before - than in 1951.
Jack Dorgan - named as coach of Echuca East, in the Riverine Herald, 24 March 1954. So, Jack and Jim are distinctive identities, playing/coaching at slightly different times, in different places.
Info on them being brothers http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article74723225

Jack Dorgan, Melbourne winger, who has been given an open clearance by the Demons, appeared. [Richmond pre-season training]The Age, 10 March 1950
John Dorgan played with the local Rovers but has had games with Melb. League team since then; he is a utility man. Williamstown Chronicle, 21 April 1950
So, that takes him from Melbourne in 1949 (and before) to Williamstown in 1950. That's mentioned above when he wins the Echuca B&F in 1951, which establishes continuity.
There is also mention that 'Dorgan was cleared to Echuca' from Williamstown. The Age, 11 April 1951. That's Jack, while Jim, meanwhile, is getting set to play for South, and will ultimately go on to win the B&F as well as coming third in the Brownlow in 1956.
A family profile style piece in 1953 reads:

Jack Dorgan, who coached Echuca East to a premiership of the Echuca League last year, has been reappointed for 1954 at a meeting of the East committee.

For two years Dorgan played with Echuca, firstly as a centreman and later as a half-back flanker, and three years ago won the trophy as best and fairest in the Echuca team.

Last year he was a utility player for East and was to the fore in the pennant win, proving a sound coach and a good leader.

His brother Frank, in his second year as coach of Williamstown Rovers, won the premiership in the past season. [Frank is also mentioned as playing for Melbourne Seconds].

A third brother, Jim, played in the back pocket with South Melbourne this year, but after figuring prominently until the middle of the season had the misfortune to break his leg. Riverine Herald, 4 December 1953

Part of the problem, of course, is that some articles have Jack/John/Jim confused.

In 1999, Jack (who died in 2001, notice in the Herald Sun; Jim died in 1965, notice in The Age) was presented with a Life Membership in Echuca - his time at Melbourne is mentioned.

And there he is - 'Black Jack' Dorgan, a wonderful identity, all of his own. Just for interest, add a Jack Mueller connection, suburban and country football, a large family in the railways - and playing for Melbourne, of course. What more could you ask for?

So in summary from Stephen Rogers...

James Anthony "Jim" Dorgan
born 26/11/30
died 30/1/2003

ex Williamstown

South Melb 1951-58
102 games 2 goals

Height/weight 173/73


John Walter "Jack" Dorgan
nickname Black Jack
born 8/11/26
died 2/9/2001

ex Williamstown Rovers

Melb 1949
3 games 0 goals

Height and weight still to come

To return to this post seven years later, Record (04/08/1951) says of Jimmy Dorgan, "three years ago he played for the Melbourne Thirds". His age would be right for this, so I think this is probably right and he was also at Melbourne for a time.

 

[35Daicos]

To return to this post seven years later, Record (04/08/1951) says of Jimmy Dorgan, "three years ago he played for the Melbourne Thirds". His age would be right for this, so I think this is probably right and he was also at Melbourne for a time.

Unfortunately the quality of the photo is poor, but J. W. Dorgan (along with several other Dorgans) can be seen in this Williamstown Rovers 1946 team photo: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/270881026

John Dorgan | Demonwiki

Demonwiki.org is the ultimate resource for Melbourne Demons fans. Explore team history, player profiles, match results, and more. Stay updated with the latest news on the Demons.

demonwiki.org

That DOD should be 2 September 2001, BTW.

Almanac Footy History – Jim Dorgan: The Dashing Defender of the Lake Oval

www.footyalmanac.com.au

The above photo can be found here: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/253631630
A better version can be found here: https://robspictures.zenfolio.com/p260321616/h1bb298ec#h14b28f7e

 

[rbartlett]

D.O.B change for Jim Watson.

See note from Tony DeBolfo and SR:

In terms of the Carlton player
James Hamish (Jim) Watson
who debuted in 1921, and also played for Fitzroy,
Tony de Bolfo has advised us that the Carlton researchers have discovered and confirmed that the date-of-birth should be,
rather than February 17, in 1896,
March 11 in 1896 - which we're now going with.

Wiki will need to be updated

Jim Watson (Australian footballer) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[rbartlett]

email from AFL
See new details re the player below. This change of Date of Birth has been verified with Tasmanian Births, Deaths and Marriages, Tassie Historians and Steve Rodgers.
The date the AFL had was the date of Registration of his Birth NOT the actual date of Birth.
Edward Charles BRIGGS Date of Birth 5/07/1909
Played 14 games for North Melbourne in 1928-30.

Summary: Ed Biggs dob is now 5/7/1909

 

[35Daicos]

email from AFL
See new details re the player below. This change of Date of Birth has been verified with Tasmanian Births, Deaths and Marriages, Tassie Historians and Steve Rodgers.
The date the AFL had was the date of Registration of his Birth NOT the actual date of Birth.
Edward Charles BRIGGS Date of Birth 5/07/1909
Played 14 games for North Melbourne in 1928-30.

Summary: Ed Biggs dob is now 5/7/1909

Edward, or Edwin?:

Teddy Briggs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

He was also a star pedestrian/runner. He had a son named Edwin, and his father had Edwin in his name.

Edit: Scrap the bit about pedestrian/runner, it seems it wasn't him!:

This^ chap played football for Northcote at the same time as the other guy, so there must have been a bit of confusion at times!:

This was the aboriginal runner/footballer, who was about the same age as the other Edwin C. Briggs:

 

[rbartlett]

Edward, or Edwin?:
View attachment 2474721

Teddy Briggs - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

View attachment 2474722
He was also a star pedestrian/runner. He had a son named Edwin, and his father had Edwin in his name.

I'll follow up with AFL to confirm the official first name.

 

[rbartlett]

I'll follow up with AFL to confirm the official first name.

AFL confirmed Edwin is his first name

 

[Gibbsy]

That Briggs name stands out to me as he was runner-up in the 1929 Gardiner Medal.

 

[35Daicos]

That Briggs name stands out to me as he was runner-up in the 1929 Gardiner Medal.

AFL Reserves - Gardiner Medal

A history of the Gardiner Medal, awarded to the best & fairest in the AFL Reserves (includes the Murie Cup and Gordon-Dobson Medal)

www.hardballget.net

So where the above says The Football Record (just the first time) then that should be The Record?:

 

[Supermercado]

If this report is correct, can we get retrospective justice for Tom Ferguson - who doesn't appear to have ever been retrospectively named joint winner of the 1942 Gardiner Medal after losing on countback.

 

[35Daicos]

AFL Tables has this DOB for Collingwood's Roan Steele: https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/R/Roan_Steele.html

The other main sources have a different DOB e.g. https://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/players/roan-steele

Roan Steele - Player Profile - AFL

Australian Football League. All the latest AFL news, video, results and information

www.afl.com.au

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/roan%2Bsteele/22106

I imagine the 2001 DOB is correct, unless Paul knows something no-one else does!

*Paul*

 

[Oliver G]

AFL Tables has this DOB for Collingwood's Roan Steele: https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/R/Roan_Steele.html
View attachment 2483515
The other main sources have a different DOB e.g. https://forever.collingwoodfc.com.au/players/roan-steele
View attachment 2483517

Roan Steele - Player Profile - AFL

Australian Football League. All the latest AFL news, video, results and information

www.afl.com.au

View attachment 2483520

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/roan%2Bsteele/22106

View attachment 2483521
I imagine the 2001 DOB is correct, unless Paul knows something no-one else does!

*Paul*

Pretty sure Paul confused him with this soccer player from the UK...