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Magic Johnson

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I probably more bias than Jod on this, I'd take Magic first, under any circumstance, even if we were after a Centre or PF. He is the most creative player in history. Kareem would have retired in the early eighties if is wasn't for Magic, and he was still averaging near 20ppg when he did. He made Kurt Rambis look good, and that is something Jordan could never do.

Magic had two knee injuries (one serious), which curtailed two season for Lakers (1980-81 & 1983-84). Two seasons in which the Lakers were very strong chances for the title. 1980-81 they were eliminated in the first round with Magic only played 35 games for the season and 1983-84 they still made the Finals, but Magic was struggling since mid season. Would we be having this argument if Magic and the Lakers won 7 titles??

Also Jordan only made 6 finals in his 15 or so years in the league. Sure he won them all, but only once the league had expanded diluting the depth of all teams. Magic won five and played in another 4 in probably the strongest era in NBA.
 
Originally posted by jod23
Im a huge Magic fan but all those saying he would be chosen first are just plain wrong. Jordan is quite clearly the greatest player of all time so any GM would be stupid not to take MJ with their first pick.
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Being the best player doesn't make one the natural first selection.

Take today's league, if you were putting a team together based on pure talent, you'd take Box Score Tracy first, but if you wanted to build a winning team, you'd take Duncan or Kidd first.

Never doubted that Jordan was better, but Magic is the better to build a team around.
 

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Originally posted by phatandphreaky
Take today's league, if you were putting a team together based on pure talent, you'd take Box Score Tracy first, but if you wanted to build a winning team, you'd take Duncan or Kidd first.
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You'd take Duncan, you're joking if you'd take Kidd. Who cares if he makes the players around him look better, do you want to have Kenyon Martin look above-average, or do you want to win a freaking ring.

Duncan and Jordan are of the same ilk. They'll do what is required of them, when it is necessary and then sink the boots in, just for kicks.
 
Originally posted by jod23
Second....
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Magic turned an ageing team on the decline into a championship winner in his rookie year, and won the Finals MVP in the process. It took Jordan seven years or eight years to win one.
 
Originally posted by Bresh
You'd take Duncan, you're joking if you'd take Kidd. Who cares if he makes the players around him look better, do you want to have Kenyon Martin look above-average, or do you want to win a freaking ring.

Duncan and Jordan are of the same ilk. They'll do what is required of them, when it is necessary and then sink the boots in, just for kicks.
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What he said.
 
Originally posted by Bresh
No, but for single-handed championship-winning ability, you'd take Jordan every time.
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No you wouldn't. Jordan achieved his "greatness" in an era when the addition of 6 new franchises greatly weakened club depth. Magic acheived his "greatness" in an era when clubs had 3 or 4 potential Hall of Famers.
 
I have recently read the book "The Jordan Rules" and am now on to "Second Coming" and you read about all the disputes in the bulls camp back then relating to Jordan, the many disputes with players,owners etc etc. Maybe that would be another reason I would pick Magic first, who seemed to always get on with his team mates and bosses etc. Surely that plays a part in picking someone to lead your franchise.
 
Originally posted by Bresh
You'd take Duncan, you're joking if you'd take Kidd. Who cares if he makes the players around him look better, do you want to have Kenyon Martin look above-average, or do you want to win a freaking ring.
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If you say so. :o
 
Originally posted by Bresh
You'd take Duncan, you're joking if you'd take Kidd. Who cares if he makes the players around him look better, do you want to have Kenyon Martin look above-average, or do you want to win a freaking ring.
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I think top class playmakers are harder to find than big men, so I would seriously consider Kidd ahead of Duncan. He is the best playmaker in the league, and he has also developed into a very good scorer in his own right. He is the only true star of the Nets and has lead them to the last two Finals Series only to be outgunned by stronger teams.
 

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The bottom line is, a Jason Kidd-led team won't win a championship. I don't doubt he's a fantastic player, and makes the players around him better, but not to the extent that he is a sure-thing to bring a championship. And that's what GMs want with the first pick - 1) championships, 2) crowds...
 
Originally posted by Portmagpies
I think anyone who takes the Nets to the NBA Final deserves a world of respect.
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Spot on.

The guy has taken a losing franchise, and a bunch of virtual nothings, into the big time.

Give Kidd a quality offsider or a big man, and you'd see a ring or two in his magic fingers.

I can't comprehend how one's ability is always based upon premierships/rings. One man has never won a ring, not even Jordan.
 
Originally posted by DEVO
I probably more bias than Jod on this, I'd take Magic first, under any circumstance, even if we were after a Centre or PF. He is the most creative player in history. Kareem would have retired in the early eighties if is wasn't for Magic, and he was still averaging near 20ppg when he did. He made Kurt Rambis look good, and that is something Jordan could never do.

Magic had two knee injuries (one serious), which curtailed two season for Lakers (1980-81 & 1983-84). Two seasons in which the Lakers were very strong chances for the title. 1980-81 they were eliminated in the first round with Magic only played 35 games for the season and 1983-84 they still made the Finals, but Magic was struggling since mid season. Would we be having this argument if Magic and the Lakers won 7 titles??

Also Jordan only made 6 finals in his 15 or so years in the league. Sure he won them all, but only once the league had expanded diluting the depth of all teams. Magic won five and played in another 4 in probably the strongest era in NBA.
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Was Magic a winner? Lost 4 times on the biggest stage in basketball. Jordan never lost on the biggest stage!

You also harp on about this dilution and that Magic won titles in the strongest era. Please bring me both lineups from Jordan's rookie year to say 1990. Jordan didnt have the luxery of Kareem in the middle, Worthy on the flank, Cooper, Scott etc etc

Jordan had nobody...repeat nobody. He finally got help in a skinny, raw kid from Arkansas and that didnt arrive until 87. Switch MJ and Magic through the 80's and see if he would have won any titles against Jordan, Kareem, Worthy and the Lakers or Bird's Celtics or Isiah's Pistons. No chance.
 
Originally posted by Bresh
The bottom line is, a Jason Kidd-led team won't win a championship. I don't doubt he's a fantastic player, and makes the players around him better, but not to the extent that he is a sure-thing to bring a championship. And that's what GMs want with the first pick - 1) championships, 2) crowds...
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Yep good point. TD before Kidd and MJ before Magic for the above reasons.
 

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Originally posted by DEVO
Magic turned an ageing team on the decline into a championship winner in his rookie year, and won the Finals MVP in the process. It took Jordan seven years or eight years to win one.
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Once again, Jordan was drafted onto one of the worst teams in the league with absolutely no help. Jordan wasnt lucky enough to jump straight onto a championship calibre team.

They were hardly aging either. Jabbar won ROTY in 1970, so when Magic joined the Lakers Kareem was in his 10th season.... :eek: :eek: RETIRE NOW KAREEM, your just too old to go on!! :rolleyes:

The Lakers were a playoff team, made the Conference Semi Finals and finished 47-35 the year before Magic got there. Jordan on the other hand inherited the woeful Bulls who went 27-55 the year before.

So dont give me this it took him 7 or 8 years to get one crap.
 
Originally posted by jod23
Was Magic a winner? Lost 4 times on the biggest stage in basketball. Jordan never lost on the biggest stage!
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Who did we lose to:

1983 Philadelphia 76'ers. Dr. J, Moses Malone, Bobby Jones, Maurice Cheeks. All Hall of Famers or 76'er legends who have had their numbers retired.

1984 Boston Celtics. Bird, Parish, McHale, Dennis Johnson. All Hall of Famers or Celtic legends who have had their numbers retired.

1989 Detroit Pistons. Thomas, Dumars, Laimbeer, Rodman. With the exception of Rodman all have had their number retired by the Pistons, and Thomas is or soon will be a Hall of Famer.

1991 Chicago Bulls. This is the only one that really dissappoints me. If it wasn't for injuries, the Lakers would have won, but after the loss to Detroit a few seasons earlier, we were beginning the rebuilding process.

All these teams had another 5 or 6 six top class players who could step up when required, and who contributed greatly to winning championships. I'm not sure if Chicago's opponents in the 90's had the same depth.

Originally posted by jod23
You also harp on about this dilution and that Magic won titles in the strongest era. Please bring me both lineups from Jordan's rookie year to say 1990. Jordan didnt have the luxery of Kareem in the middle, Worthy on the flank, Cooper, Scott etc etc
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I thought this was a no brainer Jod. When Miami, Orlando etc came into the league, they were given special dispensation to be competitive. They could take 1 or 2 players from each existing club, but where did the remainder of the players come from??? And where did the exsisting clubs get their replacements from. Some from the draft but there were rookies, most of the players came from a second tier competition. A competition full of players that were not good enough to be playing in the NBA. And when this happens two season in a row and a third time 5 or 6 years later it dilutes the league. Chicago were smarter than most and capitalised on it. And congratulation to them.

Originally posted by jod23
Jordan had nobody...repeat nobody. He finally got help in a skinny, raw kid from Arkansas and that didnt arrive until 87. Switch MJ and Magic through the 80's and see if he would have won any titles against Jordan, Kareem, Worthy and the Lakers or Bird's Celtics or Isiah's Pistons. No chance.
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Is that Magic's fault. No. It's the luck of the draw. But Magic turned around the fortunes of his clubs instantly and prolonged the career of a Hall of Famer.
 
Originally posted by DEVO
They could take 1 or 2 players from each existing club, but where did the remainder of the players come from??? And where did the exsisting clubs get their replacements from.
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As far as I can recall, Miami, Minnesota and Orlando's line-ups were full of absolute tripe. Seriously, can you think of a major loss that the clubs had the time had to these ball clubs?
 
Originally posted by Bresh
As far as I can recall, Miami, Minnesota and Orlando's line-ups were full of absolute tripe. Seriously, can you think of a major loss that the clubs had the time had to these ball clubs?
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I know the Lakers lost Tony Campbell to Minnesota. He was a young guy Pat Riley had high hopes for. Not sure what he did afterwards he left the Lakers.
 
Campbell has a couple os 20ppg seasons with the Wolves, then headed to the Knicks. His career petered out after that. Stil, he got a ring with the Lakers and averaged double figures for his career. Something about off guards and the Wolves around that time. Anyone remember Doug West?
 
Originally posted by DEVO
I know the Lakers lost Tony Campbell to Minnesota. He was a young guy Pat Riley had high hopes for. Not sure what he did afterwards he left the Lakers.
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lakers also lost Kurt Rambis to the hornets
in that expansion draft...
who then had his best season statistic-wise..
 

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