Malthouse - under the pump.

[forwardflanker]

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...-start-to-season/story-fni5f5nx-1226883140514

Interesting article today in the sun. Some quotes in particular stick out:

Highly-rated recruiter Luke Williams was poached last year but lasted only six months and is said to have been taken aback by the old-school methods used at the Blues.

You wonder just how much MM can do when behind the scenes it is a complete train wreck. Apparently there already looking to poach a new hotshot recruiter to replace Rogers which is bizarre imo.

Carlton had indicated as recently as last week to 31-year-old Jarrad Waite it would re-sign him.

Seriously wtf. I know its a famous name but how can they not see that his time has come. His role in the team the last three years has for the most part been as list clogger.



Lastly what do people think of Mathieson's involvement in all this. I personally think its terrible, he represents exactly the type of behind the scenes interest that got has got them into this mess imo. Carlton's terrible start to the season has effectively given them a mandate by supporters to the change the culture of the club without concern for short term results. Embracing the past will only see a repeat of their miserable last decade

I Carlton owned by their working supporters or by the rich people in the corporate boxes. I think most supporters would agree at this stage that the latter have far to much influence at that club

 

[Gone Critical]

We sure would like a Josh Kennedy type right now, but boy, he's been out a lot for WCE since we traded him. Had two good years and an okay one. While this sounds all good, in reality having someone churning out Judd's quality performance is much more what we needed than Kennedy's. Last season is the first season since the trade that I would have actually preferred JK's output to Judd ... and it's an old, old trade these days. Was always going to turn at some point given the age difference. No, I think there's a dozen things more symptomatic of Carlton's problems before you get anywhere near Judd.

Must say I agree with this. Recruiting Judd reamins the only great trade the Blues have made of recent times. Judd has been the player they wanted. It is not Judds fault the rest of the rebuilding hasn't yielded results. He clearly has held up his end of the bargain. Kennedy would be good to have but he wouldn't have given the Blues what Judd did.

Daisy will be the next trade to examine. Have seen a lot writing this one off for the Blues but is far too early to call. All anyone could have reasosnably expected from Thomas at this point was to be playing. He needs games under his belt before he will return to his explosive self. Whether he still has the legs to produce what he could in the past can't be answered yet. He is more of a longer term purchase

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

You can on all you want but even in the current situation if Carlton had a choice between Buckley and Malthouse as coach i'd take Mick every day of the week !

I'm glad to hear you believe that

 

[forwardflanker]

Daisy will be the next trade to examine. Have seen a lot writing this one off for the Blues but is far too early to call. All anyone could have reasosnably expected from Thomas at this point was to be playing. He needs games under his belt before he will return to his explosive self. Whether he still has the legs to produce what he could in the past can't be answered yet. He is more of a longer term purchase

(a) It was a definite risk recruiting him given his injuries
(b) Why take the chance overpaying for a player like that when most likely Carlton are going to be spending a significant time near the bottom of the ladder
(c) Why get a midfielder when the pressing needs of the list are key defender and forward
(d) I don't care how people spin it, Thomas has been very disappointing so far and a shadow of the player he was in 2011. Making excuses for his performances this season is absurd imo

 

[forwardflanker]

MK were you happy with Malthouse defending himself with his "past seven years" comment?

I thought it was a bit misleading tbh. Not as misleading as promising supporters a premiership, but still pretty misleading imo

 

[Dazb86]

Judd decision was not a bad one, he was the only bloke that showed our youngsters at the time how to train and work hard. We are just not playing a game style suited to the players.. the players want to run & carry its their instinct (walker, simpson, murphy, tuohy, buckley, gibbs, yarran, garlett etc) with crash and bash in the middle (judd, bell, robinson, carrazzo, ellard, Curnow, armfield). Instead we play this slow one on one along the boundary where their instinct is to run and spread and move the ball quick and take risks. At this minute they are low on confidence because they are scare of making mistakes. If the coach is unable to adapt to the playing list strengths then he has to go.

It is all good to say that Mick's style doesn't suit the list.

But the lists style doesn't suit playing finals football.

The list either starts playing to Mick's plan or gets moved on. They are doomed if they go down the track of playing quick moving high risk football just because that suits the list. It doesn't get results when it matters most.

 

[FuManchu]

Too early to make a call on Thomas at carlton. But he's not the type of player you'd be looking to spend 700 large on given their key forward deficiencies..

Has Muck Shithouse lost the players already? Given their inept display on the weekend, you have to start asking the question.

 

[Gone Critical]

(a) It was a definite risk recruiting him given his injuries
(b) Why take the chance overpaying for a player like that when most likely Carlton are going to be spending a significant time near the bottom of the ladder
(c) Why get a midfielder when the pressing needs of the list are key defender and forward
(d) I don't care how people spin it, Thomas has been very disappointing so far and a shadow of the player he was in 2011. Making excuses for his performances this season is absurd imo

I agree that Thomas may not have been a good choice for Carlton and that he wasn't a pressing need but coming off his ankle the 1st 4 rounds are not indicatinve of waht he may produce. He was never any certainty to start the season and doesn't have a good pre season behind him. He needs that to play his style of game.

Now he may end up being a terrible buy for Carlton and already you can wonder at Carlton risking such a buy when the upside of it isn't filling one of their big holes. We have to wait longer to see if Dale will regain the form he had prior to injury

 

[bourbons]

Lets be blunt. The Judd decision has been a disaster. Not that he has been bad, its just that he was a horrible fit for the club when they drafted him. They needed Kennedy and another top 10 pick and they needed one more year at the bottom to pick up another 1 or 2 top 10 picks. Other things have gone horribly wrong but this was the turning point that will see Carlton not contest for a premiership until 2020 at the earliest. Said this 6 years ago and unfortunaely for Blues fans its hard to see how this won't be true.

Fairly pointless to criticise something that every club in the land would have done had they been able.

You have to understand also why this decision was made. Because the values at the Carlton Football Club and different to most.
Their values are;
"beat everyone else now, at all costs"
Which leads to short sighted decision making and micro decisions without long term thinking. Simply, long term thinking doesn't exist at that club, and long term in this game is 3-5 years.

Again, every club in the land would have made that trade if they could - collingwood were sure as hell trying. I don't disagree about our short sightedness in general but people always refrence the Judd trade in this regard and its just not a good example (unfortunately there are a heap of better ones lol).

On the contrary. Judd is sympomatic of Carltons problems. You gave up your future to get him. What you miss now is a Josh Kennedy and a Chris Masten.

Do you honestly think that Kennedy, Masten and Notte (if he was still playing or an equivalent) would be making the difference for Carlton now? Far bigger problems than that.

 

[gbatman]

This is my issue. I've always wondered whether the coach and the Footy Department have full control over their portfolio. Mick not rebuilding from Day 1 indicates this hasn't changed.

A coach can't walk into the list and make a heap of changes before seeing the players play and without trying to get something out of them themselves. That's why not much happened at the end of 2012. He made a heap of changes and there was a big turnover at the end of 2013. It's been indicated/rumored that he had gone to the board some time ago and expressed his feelings about the list and opinion that it was in poor shape and has been indicated that we are looking at a 25% turnover of the list at the end of this season.

I think we got rid of 10 players at the end of last year and are looking to do the same at the end of this year. That will be 20 players in two seasons, that's half a list. The rebuild has started, we're right in the thick of it.

If this isn't a "rebuild" being set in motion from the end of last year then I don't know what is!

 

[chunkylover53]

A coach can't walk into the list and make a heap of changes before seeing the players play and without trying to get something out of them themselves. That's why not much happened at the end of 2012. He made a heap of changes and there was a big turnover at the end of 2013. It's been indicated/rumored that he had gone to the board some time ago and expressed his feelings about the list and opinion that it was in poor shape and has been indicated that we are looking at a 25% turnover of the list at the end of this season.

I think we got rid of 10 players at the end of last year and are looking to do the same at the end of this year. That will be 20 players in two seasons, that's half a list. The rebuild has started, we're right in the thick of it.

If this isn't a "rebuild" being set in motion from the end of last year then I don't know what is!

People still seem to think that if you're playing some senior/older players and aren't tanking - you're not rebuilding.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Do you honestly think that Kennedy, Masten and Notte (if he was still playing or an equivalent) would be making the difference for Carlton now? Far bigger problems than that.

I think the Judd trade was extremely expensive and was to the detriment of the clubs team development. Have always thought it.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

A coach can't walk into the list and make a heap of changes before seeing the players play and without trying to get something out of them themselves.

Of course he can. Hes been in the game for 30 years. He shouldnt need a two year trial period before he starts analysing the list.

The list changes he made at the end of 2013 were hardly a cleanout. Nothing they did was particularly revolutionary

They got rid of a ruckman because they had a surplus of one and the salary was too high for a VFL player
They got rid of a hard working but limited small defender for no apparent reason
They recruited a broken midfielder on top dollar
They lost the only small forward they had who coudl produce on a regualr basis
They picked up a journeyman Everitt
They picked up a genuinely exciting prospect in Docherty, feeding off the carcass of Brisbane (but who didnt do that)
They chocked up the rookie list with Wood and Scotland, players who will not feature in CArltons rebuild

They delisted some duds. None of those delistings were remotely contoversial. They delsited seven of them, pretty much the average across the AFL. Nothing out of the ordinary to see there

They failed to address their key weakness in key position apart from replaceing Hampson with Everitt.

 

[Gus Poyet]

Has Muck Shithouse lost the players already? Given their inept display on the weekend, you have to start asking the question.

Only people who don't know the list and the players would ask that.

Anyone who has been following the list for a long time knows these kinds of displays were always just under the surface waiting to happen.

 

[chunkylover53]

I think the Judd trade was extremely expensive and was to the detriment of the clubs team development. Have always thought it.

Nah.

The team was at an all-time low, as was membership numbers. Pratt had just come to Carlton and on-field needed a boost. Judd was our best player by a country mile from his very 1st game, he won games for us countless times and completely did his job. We treated him like a battering ram and suffer whenever he isn't playing now.

The Judd trade was a good idea I would still do it again, the coaching and recruiting whilst he was there was very poor. I never understood why I never saw him on the wing, or HFF or HBF, nothing wrong with putting responsibility on other players.

Obviously if the club had its time again, they would push extremely hard for the straight swap of Fevola for Judd (which I wanted at the time).

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

^^^^^^^^^^ Therein lies the problem. They recruited Judd because they wanted to boost crowds. You never EVER recruit because of Membership and Marketing concerns.

HI Buddy Franklin.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

The Judd trade was a good idea I would still do it again, the coaching and recruiting whilst he was there was very poor. I never understood why I never saw him on the wing, or HFF or HBF, nothing wrong with putting responsibility on other players..

Because you spent all your salary cap on Judd so you couldnt recruit him some support, and didnt draft or develop players from ground up to be good enough to help him.

 

[chunkylover53]

Because you spent all your salary cap on Judd so you couldnt recruit him some support, and didnt draft or develop players from ground up to be good enough to help him.

Name some high-priced players that were available during Judds big contract that we went after but were unable to afford?

 

[MarkT2]

Lastly what do people think of Mathieson's involvement in all this. I personally think its terrible, he represents exactly the type of behind the scenes interest that got has got them into this mess imo.

This is in essence what I have been saying for years about Carlton. The old people and the old ways - there is too much Carlton at Carlton for Carlton to change. They tried to get some Collingwood and they have brough some outsdiders in but the culture has never been addressed. The money is the "board" and the "board" extends beyond the elected members. The club is run like an '80s private business. When they got rid of Elliot they brought in Collins. When they got rid of him they elevated Kernahan. Now they will probably replace Kernahan with whoever Mathieson wants and sack Swann.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

This is in essence what I have been saying for years about Carlton. The old people and the old ways - there is too much Carlton at Carlton for Carlton to change. They tried to get some Collingwood and they have brough some outsdiders in but the culture has never been addressed. The money is the "board" and the "board" extends beyond the elected members. The club is run like an '80s private business. When they got rid of Elliot they brought in Collins. When they got rid of him they elevated Kernahan. Now they will probably replace Kernahan with whoever Mathieson wants and sack Swann.

Andrew McKay probably

 

[rose jam]

MM is a proven coach. He knows what he's doing. Clearly, it must be down to another area of the club. If it were me doing an internal review, I would first look to the players, because as much as you can say that maybe MM is past it, there's still a team of 22 going out onto the ground each weekend, and they can't be ignored here. Unfortunately however, MM may be taken as a sacrificial lamb.

The issue is the reason that MM was appointed in the first place... and Greg Swan, and Judd, and Thomas, and Warnock.....

Carltons core values aren't allowing it to succeed, which means totally new top leadership at the club to change.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[forwardflanker]

Andrew McKay probably

Geoff Edelsten? Seems to be connected very closely to the inner sanctum down there and is already getting tactical* briefings from MM. I'd add that Geoff was firmly of the belief that 2014 was a premiership window year

*tactics is a term used very loosely here.

 

[forwardflanker]

Carltons core values aren't allowing it to succeed, which means totally new top leadership at the club to change.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

+1. Carlton are suffering a genuine identity crisis. There whole ideology of buying stuff isn't compatible with the modern game. There are two very difficult problems facing Carlton:
1. Is to actually accept that what worked 20 years ago doesn't work now.
2. Then actually finding a new club identity that can take create a culture of success at the club.

 

[doppleganger]

People still seem to think that if you're playing some senior/older players and aren't tanking - you're not rebuilding.

Carlton fans don't seem to understand the concept of rebuilding.

St.Kilda are rebuilding, they bit the bullet and let senior guys go - McEvoy, DalSanto and Goddard - and loaded up with youth and draft picks. They took a long term view, which will see them have a bit of short term pain.

Carlton, they didn't actively take a long term view over the last couple of off-seasons, they are simply finding out that the list simply isn't as good as they thought.

 

[FuManchu]

Only people who don't know the list and the players would ask that.

Anyone who has been following the list for a long time knows these kinds of displays were always just under the surface waiting to happen.

Not when his boyfriend Thomas was plodding.