Retired Matthew Boyd (#904)

[gimp!]

Nah, Minson and Campbell are both ahead of him as #1 ruckmen. Boyd would be the writing on the wall for Cordy unless he lifts considerably.

What I think we need to do at the end of this year is target a mediocre (or better) and mature key forward from another club in order to raise the level of competition for spots. I think our major problem with the development of players like Cordy, Jones, Grant etc is that there is little competition in that area; they're all playing at around the same level and not developing. If we were to get a strong-bodied, tall KPF like Hille (could also help big Will in the ruck), Petrie or Nicoski (just named from the free agent list), it would increase competition for these spots and force these players to work harder than ever before to earn their spot.

We have uncovered some brilliant midfielders by forcing competition, and now we all have huge trouble choosing our starting midfield. I want us to do the same for KPPs, but the draft just doesn't work that way.

You mean somebody like Chris Dawes...?

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

You mean somebody like Chris Dawes...?

I wouldn't have minded Chris Dawes if the price over his head wasn't so ridiculous.

 

[Sharkey66]

You mean somebody like Chris Dawes...?

Goodes was very impressive last night for a first AFL match, was composed under pressure, went in when he needed to, stood back when he needed to, directed traffic.
This is what we need as a KP forward. Someone who is competent without being outstanding and able to teach the tall forward craft.Our young guys have the talent, just not the "ring craft" . Rohan Smith, as good as he was, was a back flanker, so how he can coach a tall forward is beyond me. Mooney and Scarlett go a long way to address this issue, but they are not on field during the game.
Dannnnnnnn has it right, we needed to target someone to provide onfield direction to the young talls, Williams isnt it as he is learning the forward role himself. A 28 29yo free agent from the afl or a pick from the state leagues would have been the go. Rather than Dawes, maybe we should have targeted the Qstick.

 

[cleveland]

Bring back leading teams and put him out front.

boydy you are not Judd or Ablett mate! Play within your limitations and learn how to kick.

 

[100action]

life would be good if we had an achilles heel, right now the complete body is shit and vulnerable, Thetis dunked us in the wrong river.

 

[wian]

The biggest issue I had last night wasn't with him but for the 873784th time over the past five years, the forward line.

Picken and Addison are not forwards and never will be. Picken playing at FF on Fletcher was a joke. There is absolutely no point believing that these two guys in the forward line is going to improve anything.

Paul Roos was right in saying that we are not going to score easy goals this year. Same old story, different year.

i agree

the forward structure is still terrible and the personell the coach chose to have down there ( ie addison and picken ) was mind boggling for the extended time they spent down there ?

I just hope its a case of smoke and mirrors till proper season as it wont work sadly with the above mentioned blokes down there as a premanent fixture up forward

 

[Igloo]

life would be good if we had an achilles heel, right now the complete body is shit and vulnerable, Thetis dunked us in the wrong river.

5 star post . Genuine lulz.

 

[Tommycash]

This is the biggest whinge fest I've ever read. Absolutely outrageous. God save your children, one bad test result and the you'll be committing them to a home for the intellectually challenged. Whilst I understand that your concerned with a lack of progress from last year, the only thing you can rely on in the Nab Cup is that come the season proper, it wont be giving you any great insights.

It's been a long off season, so I understand the vitriol associated with the first semi-competitive match back, but let's not sell the farm just yet.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

One thing that may interest all of the Boyd bashers is that in 2012 he was involved in a massive 44.3% of our scoring plays from a centre bounce. This means that in 44.3% of our unbroken streams of possession that led to a score, Boyd was a part of it. Overall, he was a part of 29.9% of all of our scoring plays.

His disposal isn't as good as we'd like it to be, but he's still a crucial part of the team.

 

[gimp!]

One thing that may interest all of the Boyd bashers is that in 2012 he was involved in a massive 44.3% of our scoring plays from a centre bounce. This means that in 44.3% of our unbroken streams of possession that led to a score, Boyd was a part of it. Overall, he was a part of 29.9% of all of our scoring plays.

His disposal isn't as good as we'd like it to be, but he's still a crucial part of the team.

Not sure if this is supposed to help his case or further highlight how ineffective he is. The fact that we could hardly score, plus his large possession count suggests the latter to me. What percentage of his possessions were involved in scoring plays? Also, did someone post earlier how many of those other possessions resulted in scoring plays for the opposition? Quality over quantity, I would rather he had 20 touches a game and was super efficient.

 

[TempleKelvington]

We do have a few issues even though it's early doors, they need to be addressed before the season proper.

1. Skills, we turn the ball over by foot too much and we don't kick to our forwards advantage.
2. We handball to readily to players too close or already under pressure.
3. We need to find players who kick goals. Tall or small.
4. Our young talls are not ready to be power marking forwards, we need to look to spot up leading targets not bomb.
5. We drop off late in quarters.

The worse part is that these were last years issues, nothing seems to have improved granted it's early days. Same faces making same mistakes. If we are to improve, these areas/personnel need to improve. The coach needs to take responsibility for making these improvements happen. If the same people keep making the same mistakes the coach needs to bring in people who won't.

Note, bombers kicked 5 goals directly from a Bulldog turnover......that there is the game.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Not sure if this is supposed to help his case or further highlight how ineffective he is. The fact that we could hardly score, plus his large possession count suggests the latter to me. What percentage of his possessions were involved in scoring plays? Also, did someone post earlier how many of those other possessions resulted in scoring plays for the opposition? Quality over quantity, I would rather he had 20 touches a game and was super efficient.

You can't seriously be implying that Boyd was the reason we could hardly score. Our midfield delivery was poor as a whole, you can't blame him for that. Out of our scores all season from a centre bounce, Boyd had possession in almost 50% of them - that speaks volumes of how necessary his ball movement outside of the centre means to our side.

Actually, I was the one who posted those stats. He was second in the AFL for points scored against after a giveaway turnover - 67 points from 43 turnovers. However, it's interesting that as a team we applied the fifth least defensive pressure and conceded the second lowest contested possession rating in the competition, so it's not surprising that when we give the ball away we can't get it back. Another interesting thing is that Robert Murphy conceded 53 points from 21 giveaway turnovers last year, and is widely regarded as one of our best "delivery boys". To a degree it's understandable that a hard-at-it midfielder who gathers the contested ball in congestion turns the ball over a lot - but for a defender, it's not really explainable. Pretty heavy double standards here.
Now, I'm not trying to try to justify it - giving that many points is unacceptable any way you put it, and I'm in favour of starting to lessen Boyd's role and giving young Wallis, Libba and Smith more responsibility like most are. All I'm saying is that at this point in time, Boyd is involved in a lot of our scoring opportunities and we don't have an alternative to that right now. To hang him out to dry would be a stupid move. Not referring to you here mate but it's interesting that so many of the people who want to crucify Boyd are the same ones who like to brutally attack Melbourne for their list management strategy - disposing of Boyd would be no different to what the Demons did. Boyd is very important to us at the moment; no matter how many mistakes he makes, we don't have somebody who can step up and be as good of an extractor as he can just yet.

I would love for Boyd to have 20 super efficient disposals a game as well, but that's not the player he is and he never will be. He's a clearance master, a big kick through congestion and a quick head. If he had somebody to kick to he would look much better than he does.

 

[gimp!]

You can't seriously be implying that Boyd was the reason we could hardly score. Our midfield delivery was poor as a whole, you can't blame him for that. Out of our scores all season from a centre bounce, Boyd had possession in almost 50% of them - that speaks volumes of how necessary his ball movement outside of the centre means to our side.

Actually, I was the one who posted those stats. He was second in the AFL for points scored against after a giveaway turnover - 67 points from 43 turnovers. However, it's interesting that as a team we applied the fifth least defensive pressure and conceded the second lowest contested possession rating in the competition, so it's not surprising that when we give the ball away we can't get it back. Another interesting thing is that Robert Murphy conceded 53 points from 21 giveaway turnovers last year, and is widely regarded as one of our best "delivery boys". To a degree it's understandable that a hard-at-it midfielder who gathers the contested ball in congestion turns the ball over a lot - but for a defender, it's not really explainable. Pretty heavy double standards here.
Now, I'm not trying to try to justify it - giving that many points is unacceptable any way you put it, and I'm in favour of starting to lessen Boyd's role and giving young Wallis, Libba and Smith more responsibility like most are. All I'm saying is that at this point in time, Boyd is involved in a lot of our scoring opportunities and we don't have an alternative to that right now. To hang him out to dry would be a stupid move. Not referring to you here mate but it's interesting that so many of the people who want to crucify Boyd are the same ones who like to brutally attack Melbourne for their list management strategy - disposing of Boyd would be no different to what the Demons did. Boyd is very important to us at the moment; no matter how many mistakes he makes, we don't have somebody who can step up and be as good of an extractor as he can just yet.

I would love for Boyd to have 20 super efficient disposals a game as well, but that's not the player he is and he never will be. He's a clearance master, a big kick through congestion and a quick head. If he had somebody to kick to he would look much better than he does.

But I don't think it speaks volumes of how necessary his ball movement is at all! Yes, with those numbers you put up one could me to the conclusion that him having so much influence over the midfield is at a detriment to the team, and a huge part of the reason why we struggle so effing badly to score. The fact that he is involved in 30 percent of the 6 bloody goals we kick a match doesn't mean we need him badly, and that his ball movement is necessary, it indicates a much bigger problem that he is well and truly at the forefront of.

Anyway, 44 percent of scores from center bounces he is involved in, is this to the point of being exceptionally high? Wouldn't mind knowing how premium midfielders from other teams fare in this regard. This doesn't to be drastically high with a center square that starts with 3 midfielders in the middle.

I think Libba could easily assume a lot greater responsibility over the midfield this year. I would be instructing Boyd to handball at Daniel Cross sort of levels. You say he is a big kick through congestion and a quick head, like they are pros to his game... Boyd's problem is his quick head. He struggles so badly to assess what's ahead of him, that he resorts to just bombing it. I don't think this is a good thing. This is evident twice in the first 1.5 minutes of the Essendon game.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

But I don't think it speaks volumes of how necessary his ball movement is at all!

I'm not sure I follow - no, we don't kick a lot of goals, but surely when that's happening you don't blame the player who has the most involvement in those scoring opportunities? At the moment we don't have an extractor of his quality to fill the void, but by the end of the year we may do. I'm in favour of changing his role to become a Ling-style tagger, but I'm not sure we could replace him in the centre just yet. Wallis definitely has the ability to do so. Our mids have an issue with delivery and Boyd's disposal efficiency isn't great, but at the moment he's the player that gets involved with scoring plays most frequently. Until our mids step up more, his role cannot be changed.

He's the seventh highest for this stat in the AFL, behind Judd, Ablett, Jamar, Giles, Naitanui and Shuey. Interestingly, I noticed that Griff is just behind Boyd as well, so that's something to like. For Griff to be this effective though he needs a very good extractor, and as I've said countless times I don't think we're ready to replace him there yet. It's certainly in our best interests if someone like Wallis steps up and is capable of making Boyd step down a bit, but he's not quite ready for that as yet.

The problem with that is that we simply don't have spread from the contest from the youngsters. A lot of the time Boyd is forced to go long because by handballing he's just going to put somebody else in trouble without moving the ball - that's not what a captain does. By driving it forward quickly he at least gets it further down the ground. Cross' handballs are fantastic, but normally his possessions are in a bit more space than Boyd's. For what it's worth I completely agree that Boyd needs to utilise handballs more (this is the brand of game that we need to be playing), but he can't really do that until other players show some decent spread.

He was a shocker in the Bombers game and I don't think anybody disagrees with that. Nowhere near how he normally plays, though.

 

[Bulldog1954]

If we were to get a strong-bodied, tall KPF like Hille (could also help big Will in the ruck), Petrie or Nicoski (just named from the free agent list), it would increase competition for these spots and force these players to work harder than ever before to earn their spot.

Nicoski is a 6 foot flanker, not what we need

 

[_Mike_]

I think he should revert to a run with role rather than a distribution role that the captaincy seems to have thrust upon him. No-ones winning there.

I agree with this viewpoint. Boyd should be handing off the ball to the players who can run and kick long. To say anything different is merely flogging a dead horse. We've suffered in that department over the last few seasons (ball carriers) and this is where I think Boyd has tried to fill the gap ableit unsuccessfully.

Where to from here? yes he has a good pair of hands, and he's still a good player who gets the contested ball from in and under, but thats where it will only ever be. Until we've got some more running players in the calibre of Griffen, we will continue to struggle and find Boyd tring to plug the holes.

 

[fitzroybowiedog]

I just like to think of it as Boyd is working on a higher plain than the rest of the team, he is thinking 2 moves ahead, when the young ones catch up, he'll be averaging 100% efficiency.

 

[JJHunter]

You can't seriously be implying that Boyd was the reason we could hardly score. Our midfield delivery was poor as a whole, you can't blame him for that. Out of our scores all season from a centre bounce, Boyd had possession in almost 50% of them - that speaks volumes of how necessary his ball movement outside of the centre means to our side.

He was second in the AFL for points scored against after a giveaway turnover - 67 points from 43 turnovers.

Wow for 2 reasons
1) You knew where to go find that stat
2) That it confirmed my suspicions about how anything good he has done is really cancelled out by the bad he does.

If all your facts and points about being part of 40% of scores wouldn't you suggest he is in the midfield 100% of the time he is on the ground - point being if we are to score - and he is one of 5 mids around the ball - it stands to reason he would be involved in a big number of our scoring plays.

I like boyd for everything he stands for but agree with many he should play to his limitations - much like a Cross learnt to do. Cross is actually a decent standing kick over 30 metres but still reigns in the use of his kicking.

BUT the point I always go on about is that Boyds kicking issues are compounded by the fact we do not have the right setup in and around the ball - IF we had guys around the inside mids like boyd - they should be the ones doing the kicking and not boyd - We need to get guys in and around our inside mids that are line breakers and good users rarther than leaving the distribution to guys who I think have just average disposal - Way too many inside mids in the line up and too few guys with outside run and skill - they are the guys that use the ball better purely caus ethey get out wide and have the time to use the ball better.

 

[StringyDog]

BUT the point I always go on about is that Boyds kicking issues are compounded by the fact we do not have the right setup in and around the ball - IF we had guys around the inside mids like boyd - they should be the ones doing the kicking and not boyd - We need to get guys in and around our inside mids that are line breakers and good users rarther than leaving the distribution to guys who I think have just average disposal - Way too many inside mids in the line up and too few guys with outside run and skill - they are the guys that use the ball better purely caus ethey get out wide and have the time to use the ball better.

This we agree on, only problem being where do you propose they come from as our linebreakers (Dahlhaus and Griffen) have had very poor disposal in recent times and we don't have much else in the ranks as Tutt is not good enough, Howard is up and down, Macrae is currently too small, Cooney well who knows what is going to happen with him.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

Wow for 2 reasons
1) You knew where to go find that stat
2) That it confirmed my suspicions about how anything good he has done is really cancelled out by the bad he does.

I've been reading the Prospectus so I'm kinda just spitting them out while I remember them.

Well, no, not quite. We kicked 218 goals and 234 behinds this season - a total of 1,542 points. Now with Boyd involved with 29.9% of all of our scores, that goes to about 461 points he was involved in. Now, this stat manipulation isn't perfect as we don't know what type of scores he was involved with. However if you take 29.9% of all 452 scores and say they were all behinds, he was still involved with 135 points. But you can go both ways with that - if they were all goals it would be 810 points. So with him giving away 67 points over the season, he helped supply somewhere between 68 and 743 points more than he gave away.

Yes, he is around it 100% of the time and that is a very fair point. However, my point actually trails off of this - with five inside mids around the ball, he is the only one who has that much of an impact. All I'm saying is that we simply cannot replace his natural ball-winning ability just yet. He's crucial to the structure of our midfield.

I think everybody here would agree that best case scenario is Boyd doesn't play round 1 because all of Wallis, Libba, Hrovat, Smith, Cross, Picken and Lower are ahead of him - but that isn't going to happen. Until it does, Boyd is vital to our side and cannot change roles.

Completely agree on your last point, and it is an issue. We have a few waiting in the wings though - Pearce, JJ, Macrae, Dahl - as well as Griff and Cooney if he can get his body right. Just a matter of waiting for them to develop.

 

[LondonBulldog]

Been harping on for the last 3 year, yes the backlines struggles yes forward line doesn't have a clue but the biggest problem is the weakeast on ball bridgage in the comp.
Half the reasons the forwards struggle is we are so slow to get the ball inside 50. We need to change our mentality. The days of boyd getting 30 plus possesions are over. It needs to be an even contribution. We need to have more attracking onballers. Body and Cross get too many possession in the backline, are not attracking do not kick goals. Unfortunately some of our young onballers are limited as well. Wally is a good worker yet slow and and an average kick. We need to through the onball positions open and up for grabs. Challenge Easton Wood, has more ability than most on our list yet plays in the confort zone. JJ who I picked two years ago has pace to burn, give him a run through the middle. What we had didn't work last year. I just hop Macca changes it up. I dont want to see Boyd and Cross racking up possession and us losing by 100 points. Need to play for the better of the team not for individuals.

 

[timtamWB]

Been harping on for the last 3 year, yes the backlines struggles yes forward line doesn't have a clue but the biggest problem is the weakeast on ball bridgage in the comp.
Half the reasons the forwards struggle is we are so slow to get the ball inside 50. We need to change our mentality. The days of boyd getting 30 plus possesions are over. It needs to be an even contribution. We need to have more attracking onballers. Body and Cross get too many possession in the backline, are not attracking do not kick goals. Unfortunately some of our young onballers are limited as well. Wally is a good worker yet slow and and an average kick. We need to through the onball positions open and up for grabs. Challenge Easton Wood, has more ability than most on our list yet plays in the confort zone. JJ who I picked two years ago has pace to burn, give him a run through the middle. What we had didn't work last year. I just hop Macca changes it up. I dont want to see Boyd and Cross racking up possession and us losing by 100 points. Need to play for the better of the team not for individuals.

Really the weakest? You would happily swap our midfield for say Melbourne or Port's? I'm not saying ours is the greatest, but a lot of us and opposition supporters recognise our midfield as being fairly good and could be a force to be reckoned with in a couple of years. Also we're not slow getting the ball inside 50, the problem is both the delivery into the 50 and the inability of our forwards to mark a ball and kick goals.

As for the players you'd named, I think you're massively disrespecting Wallis for his quick hands and his football brain, he's a far better player than just "slow and average kick". As for Wood, he just doesn't have a footballing brain, there is no way he has more ability than the rest of our list! If we give him a liability to do what he wanted, it would be clangers galore. And if you actually watched the game, you'd see JJ had a run through the middle. Boyd NEEDS to be that distributor at the moment while the younger guys grow in both confidence and skill, and when/if that happens then Boyd needs to rein back his role and become the guy with the handball link to the distributors.

 

[gimp!]

Challenge Easton Wood, has more ability than most on our list yet plays in the confort zone.

Wood needs to learn to hit handball targets that are 2 metres away from him, in the comfort zone he sits in, before we'd be wanting him in the middle hitting handball targets through congestion. He needs to stick to his man.

 

[josh the gent]

I've been reading the Prospectus so I'm kinda just spitting them out while I remember them.

Well, no, not quite. We kicked 218 goals and 234 behinds this season - a total of 1,542 points. Now with Boyd involved with 29.9% of all of our scores, that goes to about 461 points he was involved in. Now, this stat manipulation isn't perfect as we don't know what type of scores he was involved with. However if you take 29.9% of all 452 scores and say they were all behinds, he was still involved with 135 points. But you can go both ways with that - if they were all goals it would be 810 points. So with him giving away 67 points over the season, he helped supply somewhere between 68 and 743 points more than he gave away.

Yes, he is around it 100% of the time and that is a very fair point. However, my point actually trails off of this - with five inside mids around the ball, he is the only one who has that much of an impact. All I'm saying is that we simply cannot replace his natural ball-winning ability just yet. He's crucial to the structure of our midfield.

I think everybody here would agree that best case scenario is Boyd doesn't play round 1 because all of Wallis, Libba, Hrovat, Smith, Cross, Picken and Lower are ahead of him - but that isn't going to happen. Until it does, Boyd is vital to our side and cannot change roles.

Completely agree on your last point, and it is an issue. We have a few waiting in the wings though - Pearce, JJ, Macrae, Dahl - as well as Griff and Cooney if he can get his body right. Just a matter of waiting for them to develop.

1. Boyd played every game last year (and in 2011). Nobody can say for sure how much we would miss his contributions, although there was some small evidence on Friday night - we went from getting hammered by the Bombers in a game that Boyd got a lot of our midfield ball, to competing well against Collingwood when Boyd didn't play.

A midfield of Libba, Wallis, Smith, and Griffen may not get as much ball as Boyd, but they will still get their mitts on it (I would say the amount we actually get won't drop that much, all bar Griffen are extractors) - we will be more efficient when we get it though.

2. Whilst the stats you have provided are interesting, I would still point to the fact that we had the worst functioning forward-line in the comp (even worse than GWS), which is due to:

a) bad forwards; and
b) bad ball being kicked to them. Boyd was by far our biggest ball winner/user. In fact, I think he may have either led, or close to led, the whole comp for disposals.

3. Not sure if these stats are available, but:

• How many of Boyd's I50 entries were effective?
• What was his kicking efficiency rate, both dead-ball, and when 'on-the-run'?

Ultimately I feel kinda bad about starting this thread. He is a really gutsy player, blue-collar workhorse, and would bleed red, white and blue. But, when you see a 30 year old veteran player turn the ball over time and time again, AND, that player is our biggest ball user, you have to ask questions about whether he is the right guy to have the ball in his hands...

Wonder how he would go playing in the forward-line - maybe he'd be a better kick at goal than he is to a team mate?

 

[dogwatch]

I know what you blokes mean about it being better to have 20 high efficiency disposals than 30 bad ones* with say 20% being turnovers BUT ... if Boyd gets his hands on the ball 10 times fewer that probably means the opposition gets their hands on it more often and earlier than if we had turned it over. That will hurt us more.

The obvious solution would be to hope other midfielders can get the same amount of possession and be more efficient, i.e. take Boyd out of the picture, because it's unlikely he will drastically improve his disposal at the age of 30. But have we really got those replacements ready to take over yet? I'm doubtful about that.

*the maths:
Both [20 x 90%] and [30 x 60%] = 18 effective disposals BUT the latter means 10 more disposals that are ineffective (i.e. potential turnovers)