Autopsy Midfield woes

[FreoMonocle]

In the post match Q&A, Ross said "At the end of the day we can't shy away from it but the midfield got obliterated. They need to assess themselves and stand up." http://www.fremantlefc.com.au/news/2017-06-10/lyon-postmatch-q-a-rd-12-v-lions

That was in a Q&A about 1 game, but it's a bigger and longer issue.

• There is a Sandilands factor, but we shouldn't be so awful without him. It's not just that Griff was outrucked - our midfielders shouldn't be curling up their toes just because we haven't got a favourable tap.
• Even with Sandi, for years we have been unable to give quality ball to our forwards.
• With or without Sandi, we are putting a stupid amount of pressure on or defenders because of all the opposition inside 50s
• With or without Sandi the midfield do not givr enough viable options for moving the ball out of defence.

Individuals in defence get rubbished for their games (spurr/sutcliffe etc) as do our individual forwards for not doing enough when they aren't given much to do anything with. Yes forwards/defenders do have issues, but those zones are made extremely difficult by the midfield - but the midfielders don't get the routine calls to be dropped.


Time to put the midfield on the autopsy table for dissection.

 

[Kunna17]

In the post match Q&A, Ross said "At the end of the day we can't shy away from it but the midfield got obliterated. They need to assess themselves and stand up." http://www.fremantlefc.com.au/news/2017-06-10/lyon-postmatch-q-a-rd-12-v-lions

That was in a Q&A about 1 game, but it's a bigger and longer issue.

• There is a Sandilands factor, but we shouldn't be so awful without him. It's not just that Griff was outrucked - our midfielders shouldn't be curling up their toes just because we haven't got a favourable tap.
• Even with Sandi, for years we have been unable to give quality ball to our forwards.
• With or without Sandi, we are putting a stupid amount of pressure on or defenders because of all the opposition inside 50s
• With or without Sandi the midfield do not givr enough viable options for moving the ball out of defence.

Individuals in defence get rubbished for their games (spurr/sutcliffe etc) as do our individual forwards for not doing enough when they aren't given much to do anything with. Yes forwards/defenders do have issues, but those zones are made extremely difficult by the midfield - but the midfielders don't get the routine calls to be dropped.


Time to put the midfield on the autopsy table for dissection.

The clearance numbers dont tell the full story either (and we get killed in them often.)
But our clearances are usually hack kicks forward which are marked by the opposition (another interesting point in itself - most our 50/50 quick kicks to even numbers, seem to consistently favour the defenders?)
Where as the opposition is consistently able to break, Lachie Neale style against us and handball their way out of the centre square, surely this is a structural issue?

 

[Kunna17]

What also makes this more interesting is the fact that if you were asked to name our top 10 players, I think these are the locks from 90% of fans.
Mids
Fyfe
Neale
Mundy
S.Hill
Blakely
Sandilands
Forwards
Walters
Backs
Johno

I think the next two positions are highly debatable, but those 8 would comftorabley be considered top 10 on our list.
Yet, for some reason, our midfield seems to require Walters in it too function ...
6/8 of our top players are through the midfield, but they cant win a contest. Adding to this is that, each of the mids I've mentioned, are predominately inside midfieders, yet we get killed at contested ball and clearances and none of them seem to be Really struggling for form (might not be tip top, but they're current form would have them top 10 at the club) so HOW does it actually end up so bad in there?

 

[mike91]

Fyfe - B = Playing average, probably hurt, so makes no sense to play him if hes hurt. Should've been given the game off against Brisbane, would have given him two weeks to rest. Fyfe (this year) has lost his ability to mark, burst through packs and his kicking has actually gotten worse.
Neale - A = Been good. Our best and most consistent mid.
Mundy - B = Looks like a part time midfielder these days, resting forward was working earlier on, but now he's struggling to get involved.
S. Hill - B = Leading our b&f pre injury, post injury.......surely hes playing injured, which begs the question why?!?! Poor coaching to play two injured players.
B. Hill - A = Shining light for us
Blakely - B+ = Going pretty good, last month has been quite ordinary, his direct opponent has touched us up

Overall our midfield is overrated, looks good on paper, but in reality it's nothing special. Only one player there actually knows how to defend and that's Blakely.

 

[Lach72]

The inside mids are too samey. Neale, Fyfe and Blakely are allowing the ball out too easily if we don't win it. They have no pace.

I'd be looking at fast tracking Weller as a wing at least, Walters rotating with Neale and Stephen Hill needs a rocket and be put on the guts and pull his damn finger out


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DMan 11]

I'll preface this by saying I really have no idea what is wrong with our midfield/gameplan - but if I had to guess I'd guess it may be a combination of two things:
1. Our insistence of setting a zone through the middle
2. Our set ups at stoppages being found out

On the first point, I think the game has moved beyond the type of zone we have used previously. I'm guessing ours was always a deeper zone that allowed teams an easy get in our D 50 but applied more pressure the further upfield teams went.
I don't think this cuts it anymore. I don't examine games in enough detail to see what other teams do but we seem to have more players 'guard space' deeper than what I see elsewhere.

Re the stoppage play, I don't see us run it out in waves on the 45 degree angle using handball as much as I see other teams do it. We either go backwards to the loose man ( which makes the leads by forwards upfield become redundant) or we have 1 guy run it out solo ( usually Neale or blekely) which then leads to a pressured kick .
We don't seem to cover much ground with handball and run, and using longer kicks to contests is not working for us with the shorter forward line

 

[Ysaye]

For mine, the midfielders are trying hard but:

(1) too often leave their man to try and help out the contest, leaving their opponent to position once the ball does come out. For mine this partially a confidence thing - if you trust your teammate is going to win the 1-1 then you won't be tempted to do this. There is a midfield coaching element here as well;

(2) The good positioning of players around the stoppages has been declining this season - yesterday there was a lot of players literally running around Fyfe, Neale and (when he was there) Mundy, who were often flat-footed. This is partially coaching but it is also a function of how much control your ruckman has of the situation - the loss of Sandi is felt the most in this element. Griffin may have won lots of taps but they were going exactly where they needed to.

(3) We get bumped off the ball and outmarked a lot through the middle - we are basically back to a very small midfield with Fyfe and Blakely the only decent sized midfielders (Mundy when he does go in) and Neale, both Hills and Walters all undersized and Tucker and Weller are just average. It looks good when we have the ball and we are out in space, but these days that only happens when you catch people on the rebound, which we don't because we get stuck in defence. I think we are short of at least one tall player amongst the greater midfield group.

(4) Not much firepower amongst the centre group - with Mundy no longer there much of the time there is no one left with the skills to consistently be damaging when we do get it (Neale and Blakely have occasionally had a good kick into the forward line).

(5) Generally I think the mix is wrong. Partially I feel like this is driven by a need to fix defence by pinching peter to pay paul. Tucker spends a lot of time in the midfield for a second year player when his skills seem totally suited for the role Weller is sort of playing at half back. Alternatively Weller looks much better when being played through the midfield - the position he was originally playing before AFL.

On the question of talent, I think with respect to midfield talent we have some though the depth is probably below average if you wipe out talent through the long term injuries - some of it doesn't appear atm because we are down on confidence. There is some need for some more height - not necessarily in the centre square but around the ground. I am still unsure what Logue had been drafted as but it is occurring to me that recruitment have him down as ultimately a tall flanker / wing. I still think Weller is wasted in defence and should start to be played more on-ball alternating forward to bring better skills to the party. I know at his best Fyfe is a bull in the middle but a centre team of Neale, Weller and Blakely has a good mix of skills, height, defensive capabilities and it leaves Fyfe to be more damaging on a wing with his marking (which whilst dropped off atm is still good) and long range handball.

There really should be some questions asked about Rock /Lyon around the setup and organization in the middle - it's messy and even disfunctional and too reliant on dominant performances by Sandi and Fyfe.

 

[Boppo]

The Ross Lyon brand of footy is back and it's fair to say it's awful. No amount of yes men on these boards are going to make that not the case.

 

[Ysaye]

Re the stoppage play, I don't see us run it out in waves on the 45 degree angle using handball as much as I see other teams do it. We either go backwards to the loose man ( which makes the leads by forwards upfield become redundant) or we have 1 guy run it out solo ( usually Neale or blakely) which then leads to a pressured kick .
We don't seem to cover much ground with handball and run, and using longer kicks to contests is not working for us with the shorter forward line

Yep so much this as well. Sort of what I was saying, the one man out might work better if it Mundy or Weller (or Bennell), but not as much if it is Blakely or Neale or Fyfe. It also needs big contested marking types more rather than lead up forwards like McCarthy, Kersten and Taberner to increase the probabilities. If we go backwards we are actively discouraging our forwards to lead up.

 

[wild side]

Put Weller in to the midfield. He's got pace, and generally uses the ball well.

 

[StingBitten]

What about the elephant in the room - the lack of Barlow.

He was usually the one to find the ball first and use his lightning hands to palm it to Fyfe, something he does for Ablett now. De Boer wasn't dreadful at doing that sometimes either. Hell - even Suban provided some grunt that we no longer have.

The thing is, all our midfielders are sensational if they've been gifted the ball via handball or punched by Sandi into space. None of them can actually muscle their way to it from the tap and to another free player.

 

[StingBitten]

The other elephant in the room - Mundy is out of contract at the end of this year (I believe?) and turns 32. I wonder if he gets a new one or tries to head back home.

I love the bloke but he'd also be pushing 35 the next time we're looking for a flag and he's slow enough as it is.

Handy in the last 1 minute of a match tho.

 

[meima]

What about the elephant in the room - the lack of Barlow.

He was usually the one to find the ball first and use his lightning hands to palm it to Fyfe, something he does for Ablett now. De Boer wasn't dreadful at doing that sometimes either. Hell - even Suban provided some grunt that we no longer have.

The thing is, all our midfielders are sensational if they've been gifted the ball via handball or punched by Sandi into space. None of them can actually muscle their way to it from the tap and to another free player.

What wrong with you ? Suban can't even play a proper wafl game now . Do you want to get rid of mundy and keep suban ?

 

[Ysaye]

The other elephant in the room - Mundy is out of contract at the end of this year (I believe?) and turns 32. I wonder if he gets a new one or tries to head back home.

I love the bloke but he'd also be pushing 35 the next time we're looking for a flag and he's slow enough as it is.

Handy in the last 1 minute of a match tho.

Didn't he trigger a contract extension? - I thought that had been publicised earlier this year?

 

[Lach72]

Didn't he trigger a contract extension? - I thought that had been publicised earlier this year?

Yes he did.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[StingBitten]

Didn't he trigger a contract extension? - I thought that had been publicised earlier this year?

Yeah my bad.

What wrong with you ? Suban can't even play a proper wafl game now . Do you want to get rid of mundy and keep suban ?

No Meima... I've been out on ignore by some posters for bagging Suban. I'm just highlighting our lack of grunt inside, Suban mostly got pinged holding the ball but he was aggressive off the ball and I've no doubt our midfield would have functioned better in the midfield with him in it throughout the last 3 rain drenched games. The issue is he's useless with ball in hand throughout his limited opportunities and isn't much of a tagger.

I'm hoping Grey becomes more of what we need, we need 2-3 of him around the ball - who CAN actually use it when given the opportunity,

Grey's a beauty because he gets 8 touches like Suban, but those 8 touches typically include 1-2 goals, 1-2 score assists and frees won from excellent tackling.

 

[meima]

Yeah my bad.



No Meima... I've been out on ignore by some posters for bagging Suban. I'm just highlighting our lack of grunt inside, Suban mostly got pinged holding the ball but he was aggressive off the ball and I've no doubt our midfield would have functioned better in the midfield with him in it throughout the last 3 rain drenched games. The issue is he's useless with ball in hand throughout his limited opportunities and isn't much of a tagger.

I'm hoping Grey becomes more of what we need, we need 2-3 of him around the ball - who CAN actually use it when given the opportunity,

Grey's a beauty because he gets 8 touches like Suban, but those 8 touches typically include 1-2 goals, 1-2 score assists and frees won from excellent tackling.

Agree, I actually thought grey and deluca type did the percentage well . How much better if freo bring in deluca and let grey rest due to limited pre season , now look like at least 6-8 week or more for grey. I always thought freo fail to manage players well from mcphalin up until now .

 

[wehavethepassion]

What also makes this more interesting is the fact that if you were asked to name our top 10 players, I think these are the locks from 90% of fans.
Mids
Fyfe
Neale
Mundy
S.Hill
Blakely
Sandilands
Forwards
Walters
Backs
Johno

?

I all our wins this year all these players have been big contributors fro most of the each game. However, very plain to see over last three games that Fyfe, Stevie, Mundy(& Sandi out inj) are down on output. Only blakely has been a shining light in the last three games. Also he has been making up for deficiencies in MF by robbing our Forward line of Sony.

RTB said we need a competitive midfield and that "you are only good as your last game other wise your just a name".
Get Weller into the MF to add speed. I'd do a Lions and play Stevie down back(we need as many decent kicks in D50 as we can get) and have him as our designated "kicker in" Rich was kicking them consistently 60+m

 

[_007_]

I think our problems stem from a couple of things which I guess aren't so easy to fix when it is your entire playing philosophy.

Firstly I think we commit too many numbers to the ball/contest which Iimits our ability to handball out of congestion and increases our opponents ability to do so.

Secondly our inside midfielders seem to just put it on the boot rather than looking for a handball in most situations. I think this happens when sides are under pressure or have dropped their heads a little. This could possibly be a coaching instruction, it wouldn't surprise me. The whole quantity over quality philosophy which Lyon unironically believes in.

Lastly our zone. When we achieve a quick and clean break there is far, FAR too often nothing to kick to. It stifles our entire attack and it dwindles away into a ham fisted, borderline comical attempt at football.

If the break goes the other way, we are usually adequately prepared, yes, but opposition sides know that they can create a win-win situation for themselves by implementing a tight/high zone in our defensive 50. Coming out there is only 4 results for them really:
1 - we turn it over in our defensive 50.
2 - there is a stoppage somewhere around our defensive 50 line.
3 - we clear the zone and there is no forwards home anyway.
4 - we clear the zone and by some miracle create a scoring opportunity.

You can assign your own probabilities to each of those outcomes but I personally think about 25%, 50%, 20% and 5% respectively.

We could dramatically alter those probabilities by playing a looser zone. Imo.

 

[Scham]

The inside mids are too samey. Neale, Fyfe and Blakely are allowing the ball out too easily if we don't win it. They have no pace.

I'd be looking at fast tracking Weller as a wing at least, Walters rotating with Neale and Stephen Hill needs a rocket and be put on the guts and pull his damn finger out


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is the issue for me. With Fyfe, Mundy, Neale, the Hill bros, Blakely a young Langdon and Weller the midfield should be our strength but it's not mostly due to the lack of pace. Look at how Zorko carved them up yesterday purely by using his pace.

Mundy, S Hill and Blakely should start on the bench after the bye with our starting midfield being;

Centre: B Hill Walters Weller
Ruck: Sandi Fyfe Neale

This can also be supplemented by having Deluca and Langdon at HF and Croz and Ryan at HB. We've got the pace, we just need to use it in the right areas.

 

[meima]

This is the issue for me. With Fyfe, Mundy, Neale, the Hill bros, Blakely a young Langdon and Weller the midfield should be our strength but it's not mostly due to the lack of pace. Look at how Zorko carved them up yesterday purely by using his pace.

Mundy, S Hill and Blakely should start on the bench after the bye with our starting midfield being;

Centre: B Hill Walters Weller
Ruck: Sandi Fyfe Neale

This can also be supplemented by having Deluca and Langdon at HF and Croz and Ryan at HB. We've got the pace, we just need to use it in the right areas.

Please put Sean Darcy in ruck , can't tolerate Griffin.

 

[Scham]

Please put Sean Darcy in ruck , can't tolerate Griffin.

I've got Sandi in the ruck meima??? What are you on about?

 

[johnnomac]

In the post match Q&A, Ross said "At the end of the day we can't shy away from it but the midfield got obliterated. They need to assess themselves and stand up." http://www.fremantlefc.com.au/news/2017-06-10/lyon-postmatch-q-a-rd-12-v-lions

That was in a Q&A about 1 game, but it's a bigger and longer issue.

• There is a Sandilands factor, but we shouldn't be so awful without him. It's not just that Griff was outrucked - our midfielders shouldn't be curling up their toes just because we haven't got a favourable tap.
• Even with Sandi, for years we have been unable to give quality ball to our forwards.
• With or without Sandi, we are putting a stupid amount of pressure on or defenders because of all the opposition inside 50s
• With or without Sandi the midfield do not givr enough viable options for moving the ball out of defence.

Individuals in defence get rubbished for their games (spurr/sutcliffe etc) as do our individual forwards for not doing enough when they aren't given much to do anything with. Yes forwards/defenders do have issues, but those zones are made extremely difficult by the midfield - but the midfielders don't get the routine calls to be dropped.


Time to put the midfield on the autopsy table for dissection.

For a few years opposition teams had Sandi worked out and used that to their advantage. With Sandilands at the end of his career and no-one to automatically slot-in, could our mids do the same thing that was done to us? The answer probably just strengthens your argument that our midfield is a cause of concern.

 

[hoss]

In form Hills and Sonny are so important because they provide the metres gained the other mids don't. Fyfe is building but clearly still some way off. Doesn't seem to be able to put in the 2nd and 3rd efforts yet. Mundy has looked great at times in clearances but has been inconsistent and slowing. Lachie N our best in clearances but my question mark with him has been his defensive side. He racks up lots of cheap possies around backline and is guilty of bombing up and under kicks to anywhere from centre clearances like others. Blakely has been ok, still learning the game but not strong defensively.

I think Lach72 summed up the problem. Not enough pace or strength from inside mids when ball going the other way. Barlow and deBoer although not quick, had quick hands and could stick a tackle. Barlow used to always fire a quick ball to Fyfe who had the luxury to play a bit more outside. Barlow also just knew where to be to get the ball, footy smarts hard to teach. Our mids don't seem to know where to be, so if the ruck knock goes to opp advantage, they're not able to stop it. Add to that, it's just been embarrassing how easily the Collingwood and Brisbane mids could either stand up or break out of our mids tackles. Seriously lacking some grunt, mongrel and nous in there.

On SM-G900I using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[FreoMonocle]

With the whole stack of newbies to the team, it looks like we are under instruction to man up. Our opponents are spreading to clear the area for their attacks, we follow and leave a gaping hole which is being exploited. I think with time as the team is more settled, Ross will change this when he can have the whole team playing off the same instruction manual, but the manning up is to simplify things for interim.

But gawd, at times it gives the opposition unfettered access to the corridor or one wing. There is a lot more chase required to close in on the ball carrier, probably a part of why we are so buggered in games (coupled with young players not having a lot of time on ground, giving little rest to the others).