Missing, Abducted or Murdered (including Manslaughter) of WA Women, Men and Children & Teens of Australia & NZ

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Deni

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Ok, innapropriate but a little funny for this thread:

What do you say if you pick up a hitchiker and he say's to you.
"What would you do if I said I was a serial killer"
Your answer should be.
"What are the chances of two random serial killers being in the same vehicle"

I'll shut up now lol
 

Likeamystery

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Here is an interesting story…. On 18 Sept 1971 Tamara Milograd aged 15, and a friend went to the Royal Melbourne Show. The pair decided to split up, briefly, so that Tamara could get some change, but Tamara wasn’t seen again. Since Tamara’s disappearance, her family from Newport, south-west of Melbourne, had never stopped searching for her.

Unbeknownst to her family, Tamara moved to country Victoria, added three years to her birth date, and became Pauline Tammy Russell. She went on to have two children (one was a daughter). In 1976, five years after her disappearance, Tamara died as Pauline Russell. Her two children would have been quite young.

In March 2015, Tamara’s daughter Ms Russell had seen Tamara’s photo on the National Missing Persons Coordination Centre Website, and has since been in contact with family. Although Tamara’s mother was confronted with the tragic fact that her daughter had passed away, she was also excited at the fact she now had a granddaughter and a grandson, and great grandchildren. The Russell family were excited to finally meet Tamara's (Pauline) family and were looking forward to learning more about Tamara's early life and getting to know their new family members. DailyMail

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zedx

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Here is an interesting story…. On 18 Sept 1971 Tamara Milograd aged 15, and a friend went to the Royal Melbourne Show. The pair decided to split up, briefly, so that Tamara could get some change, but Tamara wasn’t seen again. Since Tamara’s disappearance, her family from Newport, south-west of Melbourne, had never stopped searching for her.

Unbeknownst to her family, Tamara moved to country Victoria, added three years to her birth date, and became Pauline Tammy Russell. She went on to have two children (one was a daughter). In 1976, five years after her disappearance, Tamara died as Pauline Russell. Her two children would have been quite young.

In March 2015, Tamara’s daughter Ms Russell had seen Tamara’s photo on the National Missing Persons Coordination Centre Website, and has since been in contact with family. Although Tamara’s mother was confronted with the tragic fact that her daughter had passed away, she was also excited at the fact she now had a granddaughter and a grandson, and great grandchildren. The Russell family were excited to finally meet Tamara's (Pauline) family and were looking forward to learning more about Tamara's early life and getting to know their new family members. DailyMail

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Thats a very bizarre story and she died very young. Makes you wonder a few things -
#What was her home life like?
# Did she feel she had to get away and change her name??
# Was she abducted by a cult or person ?
# Who took care of her children after she passed??
I would be wanting to ask the friend some very serious questions !!
 

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Likeamystery

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Back in June 2015, a 4-year-old boy was found alone at Laverton market in Melbourne’s west. A security guard noticed the boy sitting alone on a bench about 2.30pm and contacted police. Police issued a public plea for help after the Leakes Rd market closed with no sign of the boy’s family.

The four-year-old’s family saw the boy on TV and immediately contacted Williamstown police about 7pm. He had travelled to the markets with a large number of family members. Victoria Police said there was some miscommunication “among family members as to his whereabouts”.

There’s nothing sinister about this incident, but it’s just an example of how easy it is for family members to simply presume the child is with another family member.

Police search for parents of boy, 4, found unattended at Laverton Markets | Herald Sun
 

Likeamystery

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Thats a very bizarre story and she died very young. Makes you wonder a few things -
#What was her home life like?
# Did she feel she had to get away and change her name??
# Was she abducted by a cult or person ?
# Who took care of her children after she passed??
I would be wanting to ask the friend some very serious questions !!
Yes it's a very strange story. Tamara would have needed some sort of assistance and money to abscond and set up a new life. Perhaps she had an older boyfriend who assisted, with her disappearance, but given her age (15) that would have been illegal. I wonder if Tamara was expecting, and feared the repercussions, so thought best to get away. If she had wanted to prevent the baby's father from getting into trouble it might explain why she added three years to her age. There's been no mention of how she actually died.
 

zedx

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Yes it's a very strange story. Tamara would have needed some sort of assistance and money to abscond and set up a new life. Perhaps she had an older boyfriend who assisted, with her disappearance, but given her age (15) that would have been illegal. I wonder if Tamara was expecting, and feared the repercussions, so thought best to get away. If she had wanted to prevent the baby's father from getting into trouble it might explain why she added three years to her age. There's been no mention of how she actually died.
I think you may be right !! Tamara went missing in 1971 when being an unmarried Mother was frowned upon and the fact that she changed her age (and name) adds weight to that scenario. I read in the article below that Tamara died in a car accident in 1976, by that time she had two children. It was 44 years later that Tamara's daughter recognized a photo of Tamara in a missing persons advert and the mystery was finally solved.
 

craffles

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I'm not proud of the fact and it's not something I would usually mention but back in the days of the Birnies killing sprees my ex husband and I were drinking buddies with both of them. Quite often we would do a Sunday Session at the Carlisle hotel in Perth and they would be at our table. You would never in a month of Sundays think these two were as evil as they were.
My ex and I were so shocked when we picked up the paper one morning and there they were, evil personified!!
I know all about the Truro murders, Deborah Lamb went to the same school as me, but she got pregnant and had to leave. She was buried alive!!
When that was all going down I had a boyfriend in Glenelg, at that stage I was living in Elizabeth, in late December i'd been to see him and left just before it got dark. I was at the end of Hindley St, if memory serves it was Hindley. I was the only person there standing at a bus stop to take me home to Elizabeth. Then suddenly this station wagon rocked up, there was an old man, or old to me, in the back seat and the driver jumped out came around to me and asked if I wanted a lift, in my teenage brain I thought he was divine, long dark hair and such a 'pretty' face.
I declined but he tried to talk me into it, just when I was about to give in my bus came over the small rise. The guy from the car jumped back in and took off and I got on the bus..
Years later I saw his face again, this time splashed on the front page of the newspaper, it was Christopher Worrell with James Miller in the back that day..Which was unusual because James usually drove and Chris would sit next to him or in the back..
I called someone about my interaction with him but they said it wasn't needed, that James couldn't worm his way out of this.


I think someone has quite an active imagination
 

Deni

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I think someone has quite an active imagination
Really, you think that, why does it sound so far fetched. Have you never heard of people meeting other people?? LOL

I normally wouldn't say this but hand on heart and on my sons grave, they are true, every single word!

Now if you haven't got anything nice to say, do as your mother told you, don't say anything at all!!
 

Deni

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I think someone has quite an active imagination
And while i'm here, if I had such an active imagination, do you think I would make up those two, nah mate, i'd go for something juicy like Rachel McIntyer or her brother LOL
 

Likeamystery

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Really, you think that, why does it sound so far fetched. Have you never heard of people meeting other people?? LOL

I normally wouldn't say this but hand on heart and on my sons grave, they are true, every single word!

Now if you haven't got anything nice to say, do as your mother told you, don't say anything at all!!
Deni,

Back in the 1970s, as the population was much lower, I myself was always going out and bumping into someone I knew, or they knew someone I knew. I don't think younger people can relate to that. I'd certainly believe if you had lived in SA and WA it would be possible to have had incidents with both of those parties.

Tell us, what were your thoughts on Catherine Birnie? Did she come across as being smart or what. How would you describe her. I'm aware that David was thought to be intelligent, thinking that might have been simply because he had the gift-of-the gab. My thoughts are that David simply used Catherine for deviate purposes. I wonder if she had some kind of drug habit, and David used that as a kind of control mechanism.
 

SquiffyRae

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Really, you think that, why does it sound so far fetched. Have you never heard of people meeting other people?? LOL

I normally wouldn't say this but hand on heart and on my sons grave, they are true, every single word!

Now if you haven't got anything nice to say, do as your mother told you, don't say anything at all!!

Some people can't understand the concept that Perth and Adelaide are almost large country towns and in the 70s/80s almost everybody knew everybody.

The Worrell/Miller one doesn't even feel that weird. Worrell was driving when he flipped the car and killed himself so he must've done the driving on occasion. Actually that's a scary thought. Had Miller been driving that day he probably would've been the one killed and Worrell in the backseat might've survived and kept on killing
 

Deni

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Back in the 1970s, as the population was much lower, I myself was always going out and bumping into someone I knew, or they knew someone I knew. I don't think younger people can relate to that. I'd certainly believe if you had lived in SA and WA it would be possible to have had incidents with both of those parties.
I lived in South Australia from the age of 6 in 65', then I moved to Western Australia with some friends on a road trip in 79', and ended up staying for 22 years, one husband and 2 kids later I moved back to S.A. in 2001 and have been here ever since!!


Tell us, what were your thoughts on Catherine Birnie? Did she come across as being smart or what. How would you describe her. I'm aware that David was thought to be intelligent, thinking that might have been simply because he had the gift-of-the gab. My thoughts are that David simply used Catherine for deviate purposes. I wonder if she had some kind of drug habit, and David used that as a kind of control mechanism.
She was very quiet, she had to be, he never shut up and would get quite lewd, but she laughed when he told dirty jokes, they didn't embarrass her. She was also stuck to him like glue, always with a hand on his knee or arm around him, right up close and he didn't mind at all. Even when he went to the bar she would go with him. They never once spoke about their lives or their past, which by all accounts was shocking, I didn't even know where they lived..
There was a group of about 10 of us and I would normally stay away from them, he had wandering eyes, the type of guy you avoided looking right at..
We stopped going there so often after about 2 months and started going to the Coronation Hotel on Railway Parade in Queens Park and the Waverly pub next to Carousel.. We found better crowds there, more friendly and working class, my ex husband and daughter still live there in Cannington..
 

Likeamystery

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I lived in South Australia from the age of 6 in 65', then I moved to Western Australia with some friends on a road trip in 79', and ended up staying for 22 years, one husband and 2 kids later I moved back to S.A. in 2001 and have been here ever since!!



She was very quiet, she had to be, he never shut up and would get quite lewd, but she laughed when he told dirty jokes, they didn't embarrass her. She was also stuck to him like glue, always with a hand on his knee or arm around him, right up close and he didn't mind at all. Even when he went to the bar she would go with him. They never once spoke about their lives or their past, which by all accounts was shocking, I didn't even know where they lived..
There was a group of about 10 of us and I would normally stay away from them, he had wandering eyes, the type of guy you avoided looking right at..
We stopped going there so often after about 2 months and started going to the Coronation Hotel on Railway Parade in Queens Park and the Waverly pub next to Carousel.. We found better crowds there, more friendly and working class, my ex husband and daughter still live there in Cannington..
You're virtually the same age as me. Those were popular hotels back then. Prior to the Moorehouse murders there was a lady who went missing from Irene's Park Tavern. That was the dark brick Tavern in Victoria Park on Albany Hwy, near to Hill View Tce. The lady was Barbara Western, who had gone missing after going to that Tavern in 1986.
 

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Deni

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You're virtually the same age as me. Those were popular hotels back then. Prior to the Moorehouse murders there was a lady who went missing from Irene's Park Tavern. That was the dark brick Tavern in Victoria Park on Albany Hwy, near to Hill View Tce. The lady was Barbara Western, who had gone missing after going to that Tavern in 1986.
I was reminded of that by another member here, i'd forgotten all about her. If I remember correctly that was close to a small shopping centre where you had to drive down into the carpark.
I always wondered if she was a victim of the Claremont killer Bradley Edwards along with Kerry Turner, Kerry Turner bugged me for some reason, something I just couldn't put my finger on..
By the way, my ex and I used to go to the Kewdale pub in Welshpool sometimes, but we never met Bradley, at least I don't think we did lol..
 

Likeamystery

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I was reminded of that by another member here, i'd forgotten all about her. If I remember correctly that was close to a small shopping centre where you had to drive down into the carpark.
I always wondered if she was a victim of the Claremont killer Bradley Edwards along with Kerry Turner, Kerry Turner bugged me for some reason, something I just couldn't put my finger on..
By the way, my ex and I used to go to the Kewdale pub in Welshpool sometimes, but we never met Bradley, at least I don't think we did lol..
Yes, the shop near the intersection of Basinghall St. Victoria Park.

The killing of Barbara Western seems like something Birnie would do, I think she was buried which is something Birnie did.

The victims they found of Bradley's were covered in vegetation from trees and bushes. I wonder how Kerry was found.
 

Deni

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Yes, the shop near the intersection of Basinghall St. Victoria Park.

The killing of Barbara Western seems like something Birnie would do, I think she was buried which is something Birnie did.

The victims they found of Bradley's were covered in vegetation from trees and bushes. I wonder how Kerry was found.
I have searched over the years and can't find much on Kerry Turner at all..
But that makes sense about Barbara, unless Kathrine ever speaks up we may never know sadly!

And we still don't know much about Sarah Spiers, I really wish they could find her just so she can be laid to rest peacefully..
 

one eyed spy

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Thats a very bizarre story and she died very young. Makes you wonder a few things -
#What was her home life like?
# Did she feel she had to get away and change her name??
# Was she abducted by a cult or person ?
# Who took care of her children after she passed??
I would be wanting to ask the friend some very serious questions !!
I was born around the same time as Corrina & my mum was a similar age to Tamara/Pauline with a similar European background (based on her surname). Knowing what my mum went through being so young & as an unmarried mother, it isn't hard to imagine why she disappeared & I wouldn't be surprised if someone in the family knew all along where she was.
In my case, my grandfather promptly kicked my mum out of home when he learnt she was pregnant & she was sent to live in a country town with someone else until I was born. My father wasn't allowed to come into the hospital at all to meet me. My mum was literally drugged in hospital to the point of hallucinations as they continually tried to trick her into signing papers to permit my adoption whilst social workers told her she had already disgraced her family enough falling pregnant, there was no way she could ever manage to raise a child & she had to allow my adoption ASAP so she could go back home & they could all forget it ever happened. It was sheer defiance & determination on my mums part to keep me when so many others were forced to give theirs up.
Mum went & got me in the middle of the night when I was about 5 days old & took me back to her bed to feed me where a nurse found her asleep with me on her chest. She was awoken, chastised & kicked out of hospital under the cover of darkness. Another nurse found us outside the hospital with nowhere to go & took her into a storeroom to wait whilst she made some calls. She looked at hospital records & called her father who refused to allow her to return home with me, then my dads family who had no idea of our existence. My dads father promptly arrived to collect us & took us home where we all lived much to my grandmothers horror & embarrassment. She explained our presence to all and sundry as a "troubled homeless young mother they'd taken in" & I have no idea where mum would have gone otherwise.

My dad dropped out of highschool to get a job to support us & we eventually moved into our own home. They bought mum a ring to wear on her wedding finger so they wouldn't be shunned out in public being so young with a child and when mum turned 18 they got married.
Dad worked during the day & went to night school to complete his HSC then mum worked several jobs to put Dad through Uni after that. Either one or the other looked after me, I was never taken care of by anyone else but it was really tough on them & they were looked down upon, verbally abused & told they were the most irresponsible & selfish people for not giving me the life I deserved & they would never be able to provide, whilst also ruining their own lives & the lives of their families in the process.

They've done exceptionally well. Mum never worked another paid day in her life as soon as Dad landed his first executive job & they live a life many would be envious of today. I had the best upbringing in a loving home with 2 teenage parents who fought tooth and nail to get where they are without a handout from anyone. They were both still in their late 20's when I started highschool, I remember their wedding, their 21st birthdays & nearly 50 years later, they're still together.

I feel so much empathy for anyone who wasn't allowed the opportunity to raise their own child & the amount of adopted people I've known around my age and older who have never known their birth parents is unbelievable. I applaud that young lady & wouldnt be at all surprised if she was their families secret despite their narrative.
 

zedx

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I was born around the same time as Corrina & my mum was a similar age to Tamara/Pauline with a similar European background (based on her surname). Knowing what my mum went through being so young & as an unmarried mother, it isn't hard to imagine why she disappeared & I wouldn't be surprised if someone in the family knew all along where she was.
In my case, my grandfather promptly kicked my mum out of home when he learnt she was pregnant & she was sent to live in a country town with someone else until I was born. My father wasn't allowed to come into the hospital at all to meet me. My mum was literally drugged in hospital to the point of hallucinations as they continually tried to trick her into signing papers to permit my adoption whilst social workers told her she had already disgraced her family enough falling pregnant, there was no way she could ever manage to raise a child & she had to allow my adoption ASAP so she could go back home & they could all forget it ever happened. It was sheer defiance & determination on my mums part to keep me when so many others were forced to give theirs up.
Mum went & got me in the middle of the night when I was about 5 days old & took me back to her bed to feed me where a nurse found her asleep with me on her chest. She was awoken, chastised & kicked out of hospital under the cover of darkness. Another nurse found us outside the hospital with nowhere to go & took her into a storeroom to wait whilst she made some calls. She looked at hospital records & called her father who refused to allow her to return home with me, then my dads family who had no idea of our existence. My dads father promptly arrived to collect us & took us home where we all lived much to my grandmothers horror & embarrassment. She explained our presence to all and sundry as a "troubled homeless young mother they'd taken in" & I have no idea where mum would have gone otherwise.

My dad dropped out of highschool to get a job to support us & we eventually moved into our own home. They bought mum a ring to wear on her wedding finger so they wouldn't be shunned out in public being so young with a child and when mum turned 18 they got married.
Dad worked during the day & went to night school to complete his HSC then mum worked several jobs to put Dad through Uni after that. Either one or the other looked after me, I was never taken care of by anyone else but it was really tough on them & they were looked down upon, verbally abused & told they were the most irresponsible & selfish people for not giving me the life I deserved & they would never be able to provide, whilst also ruining their own lives & the lives of their families in the process.

They've done exceptionally well. Mum never worked another paid day in her life as soon as Dad landed his first executive job & they live a life many would be envious of today. I had the best upbringing in a loving home with 2 teenage parents who fought tooth and nail to get where they are without a handout from anyone. They were both still in their late 20's when I started highschool, I remember their wedding, their 21st birthdays & nearly 50 years later, they're still together.

I feel so much empathy for anyone who wasn't allowed the opportunity to raise their own child & the amount of adopted people I've known around my age and older who have never known their birth parents is unbelievable. I applaud that young lady & wouldnt be at all surprised if she was their families secret despite their narrative.
That is beautiful story of courage, determination, strength and love. What wonderful parents you have and how blessed you are! And you are so right, her parents quite likely did know, its very sad how unmarried Mothers were treated back then. There was actually an Australian series on TV a while back about this.
 

Likeamystery

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That is beautiful story of courage, determination, strength and love. What wonderful parents you have and how blessed you are! And you are so right, her parents quite likely did know, its very sad how unmarried Mothers were treated back then. There was actually an Australian series on TV a while back about this.
I'm aware that Ngala in Bentley was a place who would house unmarried mothers in the late sixties. One lady I know was taken to King Edward Memorial hospital in the middle of the night and gave birth, the baby was taken soon after. Another lady I know was adopted through Ngala. Her mother had stayed at Ngala. The daughter has a birth certificate but it's not the original one, she's not allowed to have it. Any woman who was unmarried in the sixties or beforehand would have found it very difficult, unless someone like a grandparent took them on.
 

zedx

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I'm aware that Ngala in Bentley was a place who would house unmarried mothers in the late sixties. One lady I know was taken to King Edward Memorial hospital in the middle of the night and gave birth, the baby was taken soon after. Another lady I know was adopted through Ngala. Her mother had stayed at Ngala. The daughter has a birth certificate but it's not the original one, she's not allowed to have it. Any woman who was unmarried in the sixties or beforehand would have found it very difficult, unless someone like a grandparent took them on.
I had no idea Ngala did that !!
 

one eyed spy

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That is beautiful story of courage, determination, strength and love. What wonderful parents you have and how blessed you are! And you are so right, her parents quite likely did know, its very sad how unmarried Mothers were treated back then. There was actually an Australian series on TV a while back about this.
Thanks Zedx, I feel that way too. And all thanks to an amazing paternal grandfather who apparently woke my dad & said simply, "there's a nurse on the phone who says you have newborn, is that true". My dad said "yes" & he said "I'm going to get them, you had better wake your mum & tell her while I'm gone". He came back to add "make sure she's sitting down".
Nan was mortified. Considering her other 2 kids were 12 & 9 at the time, she was adamant adoption was the only option, as was my mum's dad. Dad's dad was of the opinion that I was their flesh & blood & you don't give that up so to hell with what anyone else thought. He was proud as punch. Annoyed, he didn't know earlier, but over the moon with his "little smiley".
Mum's mum used to sneak over to visit us & it was her that signed the paperwork for us to move into their first flat as they were both still far too young. It was halfway between both houses.
They all came around eventually & by the time they got married all the family was was there. My dads sister had just turned 13.
 

one eyed spy

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I'm aware that Ngala in Bentley was a place who would house unmarried mothers in the late sixties. One lady I know was taken to King Edward Memorial hospital in the middle of the night and gave birth, the baby was taken soon after. Another lady I know was adopted through Ngala. Her mother had stayed at Ngala. The daughter has a birth certificate but it's not the original one, she's not allowed to have it. Any woman who was unmarried in the sixties or beforehand would have found it very difficult, unless someone like a grandparent took them on.
And into the 70's too LAM, I think it was around 1974 they stopped forcing almost all unmarried teen mothers into giving up their children too.
Thats what gets me about the "stolen generation" being a term almost exclusively reserved for indigenous babies but there are 1000's of white Australian women who had their babies literally stolen from them too.
 

zedx

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Thanks Zedx, I feel that way too. And all thanks to an amazing paternal grandfather who apparently woke my dad & said simply, "there's a nurse on the phone who says you have newborn, is that true". My dad said "yes" & he said "I'm going to get them, you had better wake your mum & tell her while I'm gone". He came back to add "make sure she's sitting down".
Nan was mortified. Considering her other 2 kids were 12 & 9 at the time, she was adamant adoption was the only option, as was my mum's dad. Dad's dad was of the opinion that I was their flesh & blood & you don't give that up so to hell with what anyone else thought. He was proud as punch. Annoyed, he didn't know earlier, but over the moon with his "little smiley".
Mum's mum used to sneak over to visit us & it was her that signed the paperwork for us to move into their first flat as they were both still far too young. It was halfway between both houses.
They all came around eventually & by the time they got married all the family was was there. My dads sister had just turned 13.
What a wonderful man your Grandfather was, just beautiful !!
I have a story a little similar, In 1985 at the age of 24 I too fell pregnant, things were obviously different by then and my family were 'ok' with it, but it was my Italian 80 year old Nonna that I was worried about! She summoned me over to her house when she found out, I stood before her and she said 'Come closer', I thought she was going to slap me, but instead she said 'I love you. What ever you do I will always love you. Come back next week, I have some thing I want to give you.' So I came back the next week and she handed me some crumpled up news paper, she held it in my hand and said 'This is so you look good to the people. But you must promise me one thing. You must not marry the father for the baby, only for you if you love him. Capisce?' All this in very broken english! and she was the most Catholic person you could ever meet. My Nonna was such a beautiful person and I was so lucky to have her in my life for so long, I will never forget her kindness towards me.
 

one eyed spy

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What a wonderful man your Grandfather was, just beautiful !!
I have a story a little similar, In 1985 at the age of 24 I too fell pregnant, things were obviously different by then and my family were 'ok' with it, but it was my Italian 80 year old Nonna that I was worried about! She summoned me over to her house when she found out, I stood before her and she said 'Come closer', I thought she was going to slap me, but instead she said 'I love you. What ever you do I will always love you. Come back next week, I have some thing I want to give you.' So I came back the next week and she handed me some crumpled up news paper, she held it in my hand and said 'This is so you look good to the people. But you must promise me one thing. You must not marry the father for the baby, only for you if you love him. Capisce?' All this in very broken english! and she was the most Catholic person you could ever meet. My Nonna was such a beautiful person and I was so lucky to have her in my life for so long, I will never forget her kindness towards me.
Are we still made like they used to be Zedx? Im not so sure sometimes & think that evolution has bred some of our understanding & compassion out and some judgement & entitlement in. My paternal great grandmother was similarly accepting of my parents situation too & just offered some advice in dealing with the negative reactions she knew they'd receive.
The day she met my mum & I she welcomed mum to the family, added us to her birthday book & never missed sending us both a card. It was only when she died many years later that we realised my mum's birthday was the same day she lost her husband in the war. She never once mentioned it bless her.
 

zedx

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Fremantle
Are we still made like they used to be Zedx? Im not so sure sometimes & think that evolution has bred some of our understanding & compassion out and some judgement & entitlement in. My paternal great grandmother was similarly accepting of my parents situation too & just offered some advice in dealing with the negative reactions she knew they'd receive.
The day she met my mum & I she welcomed mum to the family, added us to her birthday book & never missed sending us both a card. It was only when she died many years later that we realised my mum's birthday was the same day she lost her husband in the war. She never once mentioned it bless her.
BBM - I was about reply I agree as I think about some of the young people I have come into contact with through my youth work and my own daughters reactions sometimes. Then I thought about some of the adults I know and realized they had the same traits of lack of understanding and compassion. So I will say no its not evolution, its not even always a learned behavior, though quite often it is. I know some of the nicest people have given birth to some real uncaring aholes. I think it is just a personality thing, mainly. One thing i do know and have picked up with young people is that they really have no idea about what loyalty is. They seem to have it all a88 about. Some one only has to do one thing wrong and every one turns on them, no matter what the history. And yet they will support some one who has wronged them over and over (underhandedly) with some sort of bizarre loyalty bravado. And they are just too thick to see it. ie- young man has a friend who is always putting him down in 'jokingly' way, but can't see its actually bullying and supports him above all. Sorry maybe im off track a bit now, just I see a lot of it and it really gets up my nose.
 

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