Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[the croucher]

I think unless we have concrete evidence of them being alive (interview, reference to him attending a function, contact by family member), I don't think we should ever use lack of a death notice as a presumption of still being alive. Obviously there are some high profile players who's death would be widely reported, but I don't think 7 game players like this fall into that category.

Thanks, fair comment !

 

[the croucher]

Updated 13 January 2021
<snip>
40 Edward "Ted" Page Heffernan b:16/5/1869 Carl 1897
<snip>

Assuming we've been looking for the right person in the first place (!!), I think we have solved "[Edward] Richard Page Heffernan" and should submit to the AFL team.

When he marries Margaret Lillie Berwick in 1897 (#3140/1897) his name is listed as Richard Page H - not Edward
His father Thomas died in 1892, that certificate (#7237/1892) will almost certainly list children so I suspect it'll confirm Richard as the name used by the family.

As per post #539 his DOB should be shown as 30 March 1869, his DOD as 16 May 1904. Somewhere in the past I reckon an accidental transposition occurred and the day/month of death was put in as day/month of birth. Of course, it would be quite a help if the AFL paid the $20.00 it costs to get a copy of his birth certificate.

When you use the Vic BDMs sequential numbering of an event in particular year, the list of deaths just before and just after Heffernan are all in the Prahran registration district (as his entry #6277/1904 is too). Newspaper notices between 7 and 18 May 1904 confirm the names and dates of some of the other people e.g. Alice Archer (death certificate #6273/1904) died on 6 May; Leslie Hollis (#6278/1904) died on 16 May; Samuel Croft (#6280/1904) died on 17 May.

 

[35Daicos]

Assuming we've been looking for the right person in the first place (!!), I think we have solved "[Edward] Richard Page Heffernan" and should submit to the AFL team.

When he marries Margaret Lillie Berwick in 1897 (#3140/1897) his name is listed as Richard Page H - not Edward
His father Thomas died in 1892, that certificate (#7237/1892) will almost certainly list children so I suspect it'll confirm Richard as the name used by the family.

As per post #539 his DOB should be shown as 30 March 1869, his DOD as 16 May 1904. Somewhere in the past I reckon an accidental transposition occurred and the day/month of death was put in as day/month of birth. Of course, it would be quite a help if the AFL paid the $20.00 it costs to get a copy of his birth certificate.

When you use the Vic BDMs sequential numbering of an event in particular year, the list of deaths just before and just after Heffernan are all in the Prahran registration district (as his entry #6277/1904 is too). Newspaper notices between 7 and 18 May 1904 confirm the names and dates of some of the other people e.g. Alice Archer (death certificate #6273/1904) died on 6 May; Leslie Hollis (#6278/1904) died on 16 May; Samuel Croft (#6280/1904) died on 17 May.

You may well have seen this, but interesting to note this Ancestry 'tree' for the father (Thomas) shows these "two" among his many children:

They have both being born in 1869, so fair chance they don't know that is likely to be just the one person.



I can't find a death notice from the family for his father. This suggests he should have been born c. 1829.

 

[the croucher]

Updated 13 January 2021

<snip>
89 *Robert "Bob" Reid b:8/6/1924 Footscray 1948-49
<snip>

Bit frustrating this 6ft 3in fella !
Have tried Ancestry, Trove, WW2 nominal roll...wonder where the VFL/AFL staff found the birthdate ?
Listed as being from Montmorency, although have also seen ref to him having time in Footscray District team/comp.

 

[35Daicos]

Bit frustrating this 6ft 3in fella !
Have tried Ancestry, Trove, WW2 nominal roll...wonder where the VFL/AFL staff found the birthdate ?
Listed as being from Montmorency, although have also seen ref to him having time in Footscray District team/comp.

 

[35Daicos]

Bit frustrating this 6ft 3in fella !
Have tried Ancestry, Trove, WW2 nominal roll...wonder where the VFL/AFL staff found the birthdate ?
Listed as being from Montmorency, although have also seen ref to him having time in Footscray District team/comp.

It's almost "mission impossible" with this one, without at least knowing where they did find that DOB! Turns out there's quite a few Robert Reid's out there, so at least having a "starting point" might help!

 

[GreyCrow]

It's almost "mission impossible" with this one, without at least knowing where they did find that DOB! Turns out there's quite a few Robert Reid's out there, so at least having a "starting point" might help!

Had a look around before work this am so was a bit rushed but the only one that looks likely is a Nambour 2005 death - age matches 1924

Trying to eliminate a Robert Lindsay Reid as there were notices of Bob Reid engaged etc around the same time Bob Reid the footballer was getting a lot of mentions - maybe people at the time could distinguish between the 2 but to me from the distance of time it looks a possibility

 

[35Daicos]

Had a look around before work this am so was a bit rushed but the only one that looks likely is a Nambour 2005 death - age matches 1924

Trying to eliminate a Robert Lindsay Reid as there were notices of Bob Reid engaged etc around the same time Bob Reid the footballer was getting a lot of mentions - maybe people at the time could distinguish between the 2 but to me from the distance of time it looks a possibility

We do know that Bob Reid is meant to have come from the Footscray area but been living at/around Montmorency by 1948:

Briar Hill and Montmorency must be very close to one another. We have Robert Reid living there in 1949 with Alma Joan (I'm thinking/hoping that's supposed to be Elma Joan).

This is likely to be that couple:


This gives me a bit of hope, with Robert Reid being born at Footscray in 1924, and the "tree-maker" just may be a relative of Elma Joan Howman:

There's four trees with a Robert Reid born at Footscray in 1924, but none of them can be viewed.

That couple had (at least) these two children:



That's all I can come up with, and it might well be wide of the mark!

 

[35Daicos]

Had a look around before work this am so was a bit rushed but the only one that looks likely is a Nambour 2005 death - age matches 1924

Trying to eliminate a Robert Lindsay Reid as there were notices of Bob Reid engaged etc around the same time Bob Reid the footballer was getting a lot of mentions - maybe people at the time could distinguish between the 2 but to me from the distance of time it looks a possibility

This should be the Robert Lindsay Reid who got engaged in 1948:

Governor To Entertain - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 4 Mar 1948

Invitations have been issued by The Governor (Sir Winston Dugan) and Lady Dugan to a Garden ...

trove.nla.gov.au

That's certainly not a match for the DOB we're going by, so most likely he's not our man.

This is the chap who died in Queensland in 2005, and he does have to be a fair chance:

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Stumbled across an apparently "missing" death from footy records from several years ago
Bill O'Kane (Fitzroy) died on 28 May 2014 - see Find a Grave

Will add to wikipedia and would be good if Oliver Gigacz can get this updated on australianfootball.com as well

edit: Although Find a Grave says 28 May 2014 may be burial date, Ryerson Index confirms this is date of death

 

[the croucher]

I too have come across a "missing" death. Ron Simpson (Fitzroy) b 1926, died on 11 August 2016.

See the entry at Find a Grave:

Ronald William Simpson (1926-2016) - Find a Grave...

www.findagrave.com

I've updated his Wikipedia page, and ask Oliver Gigacz that the australianfootball.com page please be updated as well.

 

[the croucher]

Another one just found.

Tom Magee (Fitzroy) died just three months ago on 22 March 2021 at age of 92.

Thomas Edward MAGEE Death Notice - Sydney, New South Wales | Sydney Morning Herald

MAGEEThomas Edward Passed away peacefully on Monday March 22, 2021. Aged 92 years. Beloved husband of 64 years to Joan. Much loved father of Michael, Jennifer, Carmel, Kate, Andrew and Christopher. Cherished Poppa of fourteen grandchildren and three great-grandchildren. May he rest in peace...

tributes.smh.com.au

I've updated the Wiki page, so could Oliver Gigacz assist with amendment of australianfootball.com page thanks.

 

[the croucher]

Fitzroy list again...

Arthur GRAHAM Spooner died 30 March 2015

No Cookies | Herald Sun

No Cookies

www.heraldsun.com.au

Wiki updated, Oliver Gigacz please add to australianfootball.com entry for him.

 

[Oliver G]

28 May 2014

I too have come across a "missing" death. Ron Simpson (Fitzroy) b 1926, died on 11 August 2016.

See the entry at Find a Grave:

Ronald William Simpson (1926-2016) - Find a Grave...

www.findagrave.com

I've updated his Wikipedia page, and ask Oliver Gigacz that the australianfootball.com page please be updated as well.

Another one just found.

Tom Magee (Fitzroy) died just three months ago on 22 March 2021 at age of 92.

Thomas Edward MAGEE Death Notice - Sydney, New South Wales | Sydney Morning Herald

MAGEEThomas Edward Passed away peacefully on Monday March 22, 2021. Aged 92 years. Beloved husband of 64 years to Joan. Much loved father of Michael, Jennifer, Carmel, Kate, Andrew and Christopher. Cherished Poppa of fourteen grandchildren and three great-grandchildren. May he rest in peace...

tributes.smh.com.au

I've updated the Wiki page, so could Oliver Gigacz assist with amendment of australianfootball.com page thanks.

Arthur GRAHAM Spooner

AF updated, sorry for the delay.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Another one... Oliver Gigacz
Stan O'Neill (SM) died on 27 December 2010 - see Find a Grave

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Another one... Oliver Gigacz
Alan Geoffrey Osborne (St Kilda) - the one born in 1933 - died on 4 August 1996 - see Find a Grave

 

[GreyCrow]

Updated 18 August 2021


6 *Desmond 'Des' Clyde Bell b:23/5/1923 Melb 1946-1948 alive in 2016


36 *Gordon Stanley Green b:31/5/1925 NthMelb 1942 alive in 2017
68 *James "Jim" Malone b:13/11/1925 NthMelb 1945-52 still living as of March 29 2018


11 Henry "Harry" John Brown b:16/10/1903 St Kilda 1927
12 Samuel Otto John Buck b:15/11/1876 Carlton 1897
18 Jack Louis Cliff b:23/5/1919 StK 1940-42
21 Eugene Francis "Frank" Corby b:24/12/1924 Coll:1948
22 Frederick "Fred" Rowland Coulsell b:17/12/1905 Nth:1927,Ess 1931
23 Robert "Bobby" Ritchie Craig b:29/3/1882 Melb 1902
33 James "Jimmy" Gaynor b:17/5/1877 Carl 1904
34 Maxwell "Max" Herbert Glass b:2/10/1925 Sth 1945
39 Roger"Bill" Musgrove Hearn b:4/3/1914 Rich 1935
40 Edward "Ted" Page Heffernan b:16/5/1869 Carl 1897
49 Charles "Charlie" Herbert Jenkins b:17/6/1878 Fitz 1898


54 Edmund Kirwin b:31/3/1876 StKilda 1898
59 William "Billy" Francis Roy Leahy b:7/3/1911 Foots 1934-1936
60 Thomas "Tom" Francis Lee b:11/12/1874 Coll 1897-98
63 George Lockwood b:6/12/1872 Geel 1899-1901,Coll 1902-04
71 John "Joe" Albert Marchant b:11/9/1884 StKilda 1904
72 Joseph "Joe" Thomas Marr b:9/08/1880 Carlton1900-02, Ess:1903 Died Prior 1918
74 Charlie McCartney b:26/2/1874 SthMelb 1897,Ess 1899

76 Patrick "Paddy" John McDonald b:27/3/1897 Ess 1918-19
78 John "Jack" James McKenzie b:19/8/1908 Ess 1929
84 Alfred "Alf" Carl Frank Neeson b:15/6/1914 Fitz 1935-36, Haw 1936-38
87 Michael "Mick" Joseph O'Hagan b:22/1/1878 StK 1897
88 *George Henry Prismall b:10/3/1915 Ess 1935
89 *Robert "Bob" Reid b:8/6/1924 Footscray 1948-49
90 Samuel "Sam" Alexander Reid b:17/6/1872 Carlton 1897
94 Archibald Robinson b:9/7/1890 Richmond 1911
95 Raymond Paul Ross b:2/5/1900 Ess 1921
97 Alan James "Ginger" Ryan b:26/9/1909 Melb 1932-33,Coll 1934-38
103 James "Jim" William Smith b:11/2/1887 Sth 1906

110 James "Jim" Scott Sutherland b:10/5/1900 Sth 1924
116 *Albert "Alby" Joseph Williams b:3/8/1916 NthMelb 1943
117 William "Billy" Francis Williams b:2/5/1888 StKilda 1907
118 William "Bill" Henry Woods b:21/8/1890 Geelong 1909


13 *Alfred Joseph Callick b:14/8/1925 SthMelb 1943,1946-1950 passed away January 3 2021
7 *Ronald "Ron" Arthur Bickley b:21/10/1926 - 11/10/2020 Fitz 1949-1951
52 *Geoffrey John Kerr b:7/4/1925 Stk 1945;1947 26/5/2020

32 *Harry Leslie "Les" Gardner b:30/9/1923 StK 1947 alive 2014 passed away May 2019
53 *James "Jim" Francis Kirby b:21/12/1922 NthM 1946 passed away 24/8/1998 #post 796

75 *James "Jim" Kenneth McDonald b:24/6/1916 Melb 1942 To Be Confirmed
105 *Stanley Vincent Smith b:17/4/1925 Coll 1947-50 - listed in AFL Obits - confirmed 8/6/2019

James William McDonald has the same relationship as Alan - from the List Inaccuracy Thread #post 2450


Alf Callick noted in Recent Deaths thread

 

[RedmanWasHere]

A couple of trees on Ancestry has Eugene Corby as dying in 2008 but I'm yet to find concrete proof of this.

 

[the croucher]

I thought we corrected Jimmy Gaynor [DOB 1875, not 1877, DOD 1918] in 2018...

Research - Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

The Encyclopedia has a DOB for Jimmy Gaynor of 22 May 1875, which obviously doesn't match what we see in the "official records". Perhaps they have made a change to this in recent times? Ah, thanks for that tip. Will investigate that person then - first glance leads one to Ancestry trees which...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[GreyCrow]

Updated 26 October 2021


6 *Desmond 'Des' Clyde Bell b:23/5/1923 Melb 1946-1948 alive in 2016


36 *Gordon Stanley Green b:31/5/1925 NthMelb 1942 alive in 2017
68 *James "Jim" Malone b:13/11/1925 NthMelb 1945-52 died 23/10/2021


11 Henry "Harry" John Brown b:16/10/1903 St Kilda 1927
12 Samuel Otto John Buck b:15/11/1876 Carlton 1897
18 Jack Louis Cliff b:23/5/1919 StK 1940-42
21 Eugene Francis "Frank" Corby b:24/12/1924 Coll:1948
22 Frederick "Fred" Rowland Coulsell b:17/12/1905 Nth:1927,Ess 1931
23 Robert "Bobby" Ritchie Craig b:29/3/1882 Melb 1902
33 James "Jimmy" Gaynor b:17/5/1877 Carl 1904
34 Maxwell "Max" Herbert Glass b:2/10/1925 Sth 1945
39 Roger"Bill" Musgrove Hearn b:4/3/1914 Rich 1935
40 Edward "Ted" Page Heffernan b:16/5/1869 Carl 1897
49 Charles "Charlie" Herbert Jenkins b:17/6/1878 Fitz 1898


54 Edmund Kirwin b:31/3/1876 StKilda 1898
59 William "Billy" Francis Roy Leahy b:7/3/1911 Foots 1934-1936
60 Thomas "Tom" Francis Lee b:11/12/1874 Coll 1897-98
63 George Lockwood b:6/12/1872 Geel 1899-1901,Coll 1902-04
71 John "Joe" Albert Marchant b:11/9/1884 StKilda 1904
72 Joseph "Joe" Thomas Marr b:9/08/1880 Carlton1900-02, Ess:1903 Died Prior 1918
74 Charlie McCartney b:26/2/1874 SthMelb 1897,Ess 1899

76 Patrick "Paddy" John McDonald b:27/3/1897 Ess 1918-19
78 John "Jack" James McKenzie b:19/8/1908 Ess 1929
84 Alfred "Alf" Carl Frank Neeson b:15/6/1914 Fitz 1935-36, Haw 1936-38
87 Michael "Mick" Joseph O'Hagan b:22/1/1878 StK 1897
88 *George Henry Prismall b:10/3/1915 Ess 1935
89 *Robert "Bob" Reid b:8/6/1924 Footscray 1948-49
90 Samuel "Sam" Alexander Reid b:17/6/1872 Carlton 1897
94 Archibald Robinson b:9/7/1890 Richmond 1911
95 Raymond Paul Ross b:2/5/1900 Ess 1921
97 Alan James "Ginger" Ryan b:26/9/1909 Melb 1932-33,Coll 1934-38
103 James "Jim" William Smith b:11/2/1887 Sth 1906

110 James "Jim" Scott Sutherland b:10/5/1900 Sth 1924
116 *Albert "Alby" Joseph Williams b:3/8/1916 NthMelb 1943
117 William "Billy" Francis Williams b:2/5/1888 StKilda 1907
118 William "Bill" Henry Woods b:21/8/1890 Geelong 1909


13 *Alfred Joseph Callick b:14/8/1925 SthMelb 1943,1946-1950 passed away January 3 2021
7 *Ronald "Ron" Arthur Bickley b:21/10/1926 - 11/10/2020 Fitz 1949-1951
52 *Geoffrey John Kerr b:7/4/1925 Stk 1945;1947 26/5/2020

32 *Harry Leslie "Les" Gardner b:30/9/1923 StK 1947 alive 2014 passed away May 2019
53 *James "Jim" Francis Kirby b:21/12/1922 NthM 1946 passed away 24/8/1998 #post 796

75 *James "Jim" Kenneth McDonald b:24/6/1916 Melb 1942 To Be Confirmed
105 *Stanley Vincent Smith b:17/4/1925 Coll 1947-50 - listed in AFL Obits - confirmed 8/6/2019

James William McDonald has the same relationship as Alan - from the List Inaccuracy Thread #post 2450


Alf Callick noted in Recent Deaths thread


MALONE, James (Jim)

Aged 95 13/11/1925 - 23/10/2021

Matched DOB - From Herald Sun Tribute

 

[Bandit55]

It appears that the following South Melbourne players have passed away, but further confirmation may be required:

R Keith Jenkinson:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/215717508/robert-keith-jenkinson

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/tributes/notice/death-notices/jenkinson-robert-keith/4040481/


Frank Primmer (father of Wayne):

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/230556016/francis-william-primmer


Neville Stanley Campbell:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/153398581/neville-campbell

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/tributes/notice/death-notices/campbell-neville-stanley/3531930/

[TD valign="top"]CAMPBELL[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Neville Stanley[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Death notice[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]07DEC2006[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Publication[/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Herald Sun (Melbourne)[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]07DEC2006[/TD]

Urban/Irwin Duniam from the Ryerson Index:

[TD valign="top"]DUNIAM[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Irwin[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Death notice[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]19MAR2003[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Publication[/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Herald Sun (Melbourne)[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]19MAR2003[/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]

[TD valign="top"]DUNIAM[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Irwin William[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Death notice[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]18MAR2003[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Death[/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"]at St Andrew's Hospital[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Adelaide Advertiser[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]24MAR2003[/TD]

Des Barry – ‘official’ DoB may be incorrect:

https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/213767798/desmond-john-barry

This Des Barry was the nephew of the South players & officials, Paddy & Joe Scanlan and moved to Canberra:

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164506499?searchTerm=des barry

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/128812052?searchTerm=des barry south melbourne

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/103112866?searchTerm=des barry manuka

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/110926016?searchTerm=des barry manuka


Chester Read from the Ryerson Index:

[TD valign="top"]READ[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Chester[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Death notice[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]14APR2001[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Death[/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"][/TD]
[TD valign="top"]Herald Sun (Melbourne)[/TD]
[TD valign="top"]18APR2001[/TD]

Ern Collihole

Possibly 14 September 1985.

 

[the croucher]

Did we ever come across reference to where Alan James “Ginger” Ryan was supposed to have been born in 1909 ? I’ve just checked Victorian BDMs and New South Wales BDMs and came up blank.

 

[the croucher]

Nothing much further on Max Glass, except confirmation that his wife (Margaret Elizabeth née Hems) sadly died quite young aged 48 on 13 April 1975, her death notice in The Age on 14 April but I cannot at moment get screen focus to read it. Ancestry family tree pages for her still show him as “private” indicating still alive, but I’m not sure yet how recently the “tree owners” logged on and updated. Ancestry electoral roll info suggests that an M J Glass was living in same sub-district in 1977 and 1980, but as I’m only on phone usage at moment cannot enlarge and focus screen to see if MJ also at exactly same address.

 

[the croucher]

Found something that caught my eye and wanted some feedback. Now this is all speculation the only connection is the names and dates.

Raymond Paul Ross born May 1900 (relevant) to Mary Alice Ross and Unknown father

Family name ROSS Given names Raymond Paul Father's name Unknown Mother's name Mary Alice (Ross)

Place of birth HOTHAM WEST

There doesnt look to be any relevant marriages of Mary Alice to anybody to investigate.

Excluding Ross and entering Raymond Paul in Deaths only brings up an interesting coincidence.

Family name ELLIOTT Given names Raymond Paul
Father's name ELLIOTT Frederick William Mother's name Alice (Ross)

Place of birth Northcote Place of death Essendon Age 80

----------------------------

There is no corresponding Birth record for Raymond Paul Elliott in Vic BDM yet the above death notice suggests there must be.
There is no corresponding Marriage except for a Min(n)ie Ross to Fred Elliott in 1895. Yet I think that could be Jemima Minnie Elliott

Looking on deceasedsearch- GMCT site we see the interment of RP Elliott at Fawkner. Interred June 1980 (relevance) aged 80 ie May birthday celebrated

--------------

Once again this is only speculation and subject to further check.

Any thoughts?

I’ve just been looking at RP Ross as well and think your clues are definitely worth following up. Given the AFL office has good link with Vic BDMs people, the 1980 death certificate for RP Elliott should be checked, and also worth having a look at 1924 marriage certificate for Elliott and Alice Brann.

 

[35Daicos]

Nothing much further on Max Glass, except confirmation that his wife (Margaret Elizabeth née Hems) sadly died quite young aged 48 on 13 April 1975, her death notice in The Age on 14 April but I cannot at moment get screen focus to read it. Ancestry family tree pages for her still show him as “private” indicating still alive, but I’m not sure yet how recently the “tree owners” logged on and updated. Ancestry electoral roll info suggests that an M J Glass was living in same sub-district in 1977 and 1980, but as I’m only on phone usage at moment cannot enlarge and focus screen to see if MJ also at exactly same address.

He's meant to be Maxwell Herbert Glass, if the AFL have identified the right chap:


It looks likely to be correct:



Margaret Elizabeth was cremated at Springvale Cemetery, but Max's name doesn't show up there in the deceased search:



He was living with his two sons at the same address (at Rye) in 1977:


So who was Hazel Adelaide? Did Max get married again within a few years, or was it one of the sons?:


Marriages on Vic BDM are not coming up at the moment.

Edit: This is likely to be her:

Looks like she did marry Maxwell Herbert, and he (I think) was still alive in 1999: