Research Missing DOD or DOB for League players (AFL)

[the croucher]

He's meant to be Maxwell Herbert Glass, if the AFL have identified the right chap:
View attachment 1272151

It looks likely to be correct:
View attachment 1272161

View attachment 1272138
Margaret Elizabeth was cremated at Springvale Cemetery, but Max's name doesn't show up there in the deceased search:
View attachment 1272150
View attachment 1272149

He was living with his two sons at the same address (at Rye) in 1977:
View attachment 1272165d

Thanks for getting clearer copies than I could ! At least that confirms a couple of sets of initials (sons) to keep an eye out for. There is an entry on WhitePages for an RG Glass living in Balaclava.

 

[35Daicos]

Thanks for getting clearer copies than I could ! At least that confirms a couple of sets of initials (sons) to keep an eye out for. There is an entry on WhitePages for an RG Glass living in Balaclava.

In case you missed it, just check the bit I added to my last post. It looks certain that Max married again, and that his wife died at Coffs Harbour in 1999.

It looks like they were living there by 1980 (he had been working as a driver when last in Victoria):

 

[ThePope]

Nothing much further on Max Glass, except confirmation that his wife (Margaret Elizabeth née Hems) sadly died quite young aged 48 on 13 April 1975, her death notice in The Age on 14 April but I cannot at moment get screen focus to read it. Ancestry family tree pages for her still show him as “private” indicating still alive, but I’m not sure yet how recently the “tree owners” logged on and updated. Ancestry electoral roll info suggests that an M J Glass was living in same sub-district in 1977 and 1980, but as I’m only on phone usage at moment cannot enlarge and focus screen to see if MJ also at exactly same address.

"Loved wife of Max"

Margaret F Glass 13 April 1975 in BillionGraves GPS Headstones | BillionGraves

Record for Margaret F Glass 13 April 1975 in Springvale Botanical Cemetery, Melbourne, City of Greater Dandenong, Victoria, Australia from BillionGraves GPS Headstones. | BillionGraves

billiongraves.com

From 1968, Dromana:

From 1980 Nepean, I'd guess that Maxwell John was the son (as mentioned in the obit as John).

 

[the croucher]

Thanks for getting clearer copies than I could ! At least that confirms a couple of sets of initials (sons) to keep an eye out for. There is an entry on WhitePages for an RG Glass living in Balaclava.

Tried the number, no connection to Max.

 

[the croucher]

Tried the number, no connection to Max.

Max Glass was captain in 1944 of the premiership winning South Melbourne Colts team: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165034664

 

[Bandit55]

Re: 110 James "Jim" Scott Sutherland b:10/5/1900 Sth 1924

It seems that James Scott Sutherland disappeared around the end of December 1931. His wife instituted divorce proceedings him on the grounds of desertion:



The divorce was granted in 1935:

09 Mar 1935 - Saturday, 9th March. - Trove (nla.gov.au)

His father, who was reported to be a prominent footballer with Port Melbourne and Footscray, passed away in 1937:

28 May 1937 - Family Notices - Trove (nla.gov.au)

05 Jun 1937 - OBITUARY - Trove (nla.gov.au)

According to Ancestry trees he reappeared in Queensland as James Francis Hardy and passed away in 1973:

James Francis Hardy (1904-1973) - Find A Grave Memorial



Any thoughts?

 

[GreyCrow]

Certainly worth a look

I cant see any corresponding Qld births in 1904 - newspaper articles are difficult with James Hardie cluttering up the links

What would be good is to see electoral rolls prior to 1936

Looking at Bendigo 1949 we see a James Francis Hardy (Boilermaker) wit a Grace Florence of the same address

In 1937 a James Francis married Grace Florence MacDiarmid in QLD

• James Francis Hardy
  Event date: 27/11/1937
  Event type: Marriage registration
  Registration details: 1937/C/4874
• 
  Spouse: Grace Florence MacDiarmid

1937 in Herbert electorate a JF Hardy (Boilermaker) is there and depending on date is single

Then we have multiple James and Grace records in Qld after 1949

 

[GreyCrow]

We do know that Bob Reid is meant to have come from the Footscray area but been living at/around Montmorency by 1948:
View attachment 1151057
Briar Hill and Montmorency must be very close to one another. We have Robert Reid living there in 1949 with Alma Joan (I'm thinking/hoping that's supposed to be Elma Joan).

This is likely to be that couple:
View attachment 1151065

This gives me a bit of hope, with Robert Reid being born at Footscray in 1924, and the "tree-maker" just may be a relative of Elma Joan Howman:
View attachment 1151072
There's four trees with a Robert Reid born at Footscray in 1924, but none of them can be viewed.

That couple had (at least) these two children:
View attachment 1151087
View attachment 1151084

That's all I can come up with, and it might well be wide of the mark!

Elma Joan died 2020 and was cremated at Nudgee in Qld

Elma Joan Reid (1925-2020) - Find a Grave...

www.findagrave.com

 

[GreyCrow]

Updated 28 November 2021


6 *Desmond 'Des' Clyde Bell b:23/5/1923 Melb 1946-1948 alive in 2016

36 *Gordon Stanley Green b:31/5/1925 NthMelb 1942 alive in 2017

11 Henry "Harry" John Brown b:16/10/1903 St Kilda 1927
12 Samuel Otto John Buck b:15/11/1876 Carlton 1897
18 Jack Louis Cliff b:23/5/1919 StK 1940-42
21 Eugene Francis "Frank" Corby b:24/12/1924 Coll:1948
22 Frederick "Fred" Rowland Coulsell b:17/12/1905 Nth:1927,Ess 1931
23 Robert "Bobby" Ritchie Craig b:29/3/1882 Melb 1902

34 Maxwell "Max" Herbert Glass b:2/10/1925 Sth 1945
39 Roger"Bill" Musgrove Hearn b:4/3/1914 Rich 1935
40 Edward "Ted" Page Heffernan b:16/5/1869 Carl 1897
49 Charles "Charlie" Herbert Jenkins b:17/6/1878 Fitz 1898


54 Edmund Kirwin b:31/3/1876 StKilda 1898
59 William "Billy" Francis Roy Leahy b:7/3/1911 Foots 1934-1936
60 Thomas "Tom" Francis Lee b:11/12/1874 Coll 1897-98
63 George Lockwood b:6/12/1872 Geel 1899-1901,Coll 1902-04
71 John "Joe" Albert Marchant b:11/9/1884 StKilda 1904
72 Joseph "Joe" Thomas Marr b:9/08/1880 Carlton1900-02, Ess:1903 Died Prior 1918
74 Charlie McCartney b:26/2/1874 SthMelb 1897,Ess 1899

76 Patrick "Paddy" John McDonald b:27/3/1897 Ess 1918-19
78 John "Jack" James McKenzie b:19/8/1908 Ess 1929
84 Alfred "Alf" Carl Frank Neeson b:15/6/1914 Fitz 1935-36, Haw 1936-38
87 Michael "Mick" Joseph O'Hagan b:22/1/1878 StK 1897
88 *George Henry Prismall b:10/3/1915 Ess 1935
89 *Robert "Bob" Reid b:8/6/1924 Footscray 1948-49
90 Samuel "Sam" Alexander Reid b:17/6/1872 Carlton 1897
94 Archibald Robinson b:9/7/1890 Richmond 1911
95 Raymond Paul Ross b:2/5/1900 Ess 1921
97 Alan James "Ginger" Ryan b:26/9/1909 Melb 1932-33,Coll 1934-38
103 James "Jim" William Smith b:11/2/1887 Sth 1906

110 James "Jim" Scott Sutherland b:10/5/1900 Sth 1924
116 *Albert "Alby" Joseph Williams b:3/8/1916 NthMelb 1943
117 William "Billy" Francis Williams b:2/5/1888 StKilda 1907
118 William "Bill" Henry Woods b:21/8/1890 Geelong 1909


75 *James "Jim" Kenneth McDonald b:24/6/1916 Melb 1942 To Be Confirmed


James William McDonald has the same relationship as Alan - from the List Inaccuracy Thread #post 2450


33 James "Jimmy" Gaynor b:17/5/1877 Carl 1904 Listed as James Bernard Gaynor died 20/11/1918

 

[35Daicos]

Elma Joan died 2020 and was cremated at Nudgee in Qld

Elma Joan Reid (1925-2020) - Find a Grave...

www.findagrave.com

An Elma Joan Reid was living with a Robert Reid in Queensland from (at least) the late 1950's onwards:



So is this the same couple who were at Montmorency/Briar Hill in 1948 and 1954 according to the electoral roll (with the woman named Alma Joan, though hopefully that was a mistake)? Robert and Elma Joan had a child born in Victoria in 1955.

 

[GreyCrow]

An Elma Joan Reid was living with a Robert Reid in Queensland from (at least) the late 1950's onwards:
View attachment 1289106

View attachment 1289103
So is this the same couple who were at Montmorency/Briar Hill in 1948 and 1954 according to the electoral roll (with the woman named Alma Joan, though hopefully that was a mistake)? Robert and Elma Joan had a child born in Victoria in 1955.

Might match the Robert Reid who died 2005

 

[35Daicos]

Might match the Robert Reid who died 2005

I'm pretty sure it will be them, but can't prove it at the moment. Hopefully something that helps will show up!

 

[the croucher]

I'm pretty sure it will be them, but can't prove it at the moment. Hopefully something that helps will show up!

Nothing more concrete from my searches either...the Vic BDMS have a marriage for Elma Joan Howman to a Robert Reid with reg number of 12224 / 1948

and there is a son Kenneth Robert Reid born at end of December 1952

Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 26 Dec 1952

trove.nla.gov.au

Some Ancestry private member trees have Howman Reid tags and although I cannot see the detail to confirm them as couple we are discussing, my search terms included Reid DOD as 2005, and marriage year of 1948, and the three hits returned all had Reid as born in 1924 in Footscray district.

 

[35Daicos]

Nothing more concrete from my searches either...the Vic BDMS have a marriage for Elma Joan Howman to a Robert Reid with reg number of 12224 / 1948

and there is a son Kenneth Robert Reid born at end of December 1952

Family Notices - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 26 Dec 1952

trove.nla.gov.au

Some Ancestry private member trees have Howman Reid tags and although I cannot see the detail to confirm them as couple we are discussing, my search terms included Reid DOD as 2005, and marriage year of 1948, and the three hits returned all had Reid as born in 1924 in Footscray district.

Yes, I did make mention of a "Howman connection" (in one of those 'trees') in this post. I've been quite confident for a while that Robert Reid and Elma Joan Howman would be the right couple, and that 2005 death does look very likely as well. It might be worth dropping a line to one of those 'tree makers' on Ancestry to see if they can help.

 

[the croucher]

Yes, I did make mention of a "Howman connection" (in one of those 'trees') in this post. I've been quite confident for a while that Robert Reid and Elma Joan Howman would be the right couple, and that 2005 death does look very likely as well. It might be worth dropping a line to one of those 'tree makers' on Ancestry to see if they can help.

Yes, agree with that, so sorted out a few words explaining reason for approach and included link to these discussions we've been having.
Asked for any information to help us resolve the question. Sent same message to all three private tree owners.

 

[the croucher]

Yes, agree with that, so sorted out a few words explaining reason for approach and included link to these discussions we've been having.
Asked for any information to help us resolve the question. Sent same message to all three private tree owners.

Have had replies from two of the three "Reid/Howman" private tree owners on Ancestry.

Nothing concrete...One knew of his life in QLD 1950s/60s but had never heard of any football career;

the other thought he'd "played in the VFA," and was going to check for contacts in the younger generation.

 

[ThePope]

In case it's not already been mentioned here but Malcolm Worrall's DOB was incorrectly listed in the records. Records indicate he was born on 10/10/1925 but in fact he was born on 10/12/1925.

https://australianfootball.com/players/player/Malcolm Worrall/7159

His daughter confirmed this to AF.

Looking into Mr Worrall again, his 96th birthday was yesterday. But I found an Ancestry family tree that says both he (Malcolm Murray Worrall) and his wife (Valerie Patricia) died in Queensland. But no dates, place or source references were given, and I can't find a matching record on Ryerson, Billiongraves or FindAGrave or a few of the Qld cemetery search sites that I tried.

On the same day as Oliver's post in 2017, an IP resolving to Toowoomba edited his wikipedia page to change the birth date with an edit summary of "Updated correct birthday as I am Mal’s daughter." But no inclusion of a death date.
I'm not sure who Hawthorn's oldest living player actually is. No confirmation of any of the top few being alive.

wd:Q21176272	Jack Taylor	97	May 9, 1924
wd:Q19594730	Malcolm Worrall	96	December 10, 1925
wd:Q6113807	Jack MacDonald	94	May 16, 1927
wd:Q21176172	Lew Evans	94	October 14, 1927
wd:Q21176187	Barry Griffiths	92	July 12, 1929
wd:Q21176238	Wally Nash	92	June 10, 1929
wd:Q21176255	Jim Rattray	92	August 22, 1929
wd:Q21598239	Brian Lambert	91	October 10, 1930
wd:Q21598244	Brian Leary	91	May 24, 1930
wd:Q21598382	Lindsay Turnbull	91	October 9, 1930
wd:Q18388160	Dave Morgan	91	September 29, 1930
wd:Q21598099	Peter Charleston	91	August 28, 1930
wd:Q21598191	Jeff Harris	90	August 31, 1931
wd:Q21598342	Peter Scott	90	March 24, 1931
wd:Q19662447	John O'Mahony	90	December 7, 1931

 

[GreyCrow]

Peter Scott is a Doctor

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page6570010

Who married Mardi and is given the middle name Robert http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page6571810

Mardi passed away 2004 in Melbourne - notice in HS SCOTT Mardi Death notice 06JUL2004 Publication Herald Sun (Melbourne)06JUL2004

No notice for Dr or Peter Robert

 

[GreyCrow]

Peter Charleston was the first coach of the newly formed Jewish team Ajax in the VAFA http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page29299022

On the clubs website there is an In Memory page of which Peter does NOT appear - though he is absent from all other lists except ex coach

https://www.seniors.ajaxfootballclub.com.au/the-club/premiership-teams/in-memory

There is a psychotherapist of the same name in Melbourne who may have information - not same person

 

[Connor7395]

Can't help much in this department as I imagine Trove has been far exhausted for the remaining mysteries.
I found an obituary for a Charles H. Jenkins who died in Bendigo in 1910 with the procession starting from his mother's home. Worth a look?

OBITUARY. - Bendigo Advertiser (Vic. : 1855 - 1918) - 20 Jun 1910

The funeral of the late Mr. Charies H. (Son) Jenkins took place on Saturday, leaving his mother's residence, Garsad-street, for the Bendigo Cemetery, where the remains ...

trove.nla.gov.au

 

[35Daicos]

Can't help much in this department as I imagine Trove has been far exhausted for the remaining mysteries.
I found an obituary for a Charles H. Jenkins who died in Bendigo in 1910 with the procession starting from his mother's home. Worth a look?

OBITUARY. - Bendigo Advertiser (Vic. : 1855 - 1918) - 20 Jun 1910

The funeral of the late Mr. Charies H. (Son) Jenkins took place on Saturday, leaving his mother's residence, Garsad-street, for the Bendigo Cemetery, where the remains ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Definitely worth a look, but if this is him and the age shown on his death reg. is even close to being correct it won't be the 1898 Fitzroy player:


This is who the AFL records have as the player:


Though I think there's enough evidence in this post, and the one that follows it, to suggest that this is the right chap:

 

[the croucher]

Looking into Mr Worrall again, his 96th birthday was yesterday. But I found an Ancestry family tree that says both he (Malcolm Murray Worrall) and his wife (Valerie Patricia) died in Queensland. But no dates, place or source references were given, and I can't find a matching record on Ryerson, Billiongraves or FindAGrave or a few of the Qld cemetery search sites that I tried.

On the same day as Oliver's post in 2017, an IP resolving to Toowoomba edited his wikipedia page to change the birth date with an edit summary of "Updated correct birthday as I am Mal’s daughter." But no inclusion of a death date.
I'm not sure who Hawthorn's oldest living player actually is. No confirmation of any of the top few being alive.

wd:Q21176272	Jack Taylor	97	May 9, 1924
wd:Q19594730	Malcolm Worrall	96	December 10, 1925
wd:Q6113807	Jack MacDonald	94	May 16, 1927
wd:Q21176172	Lew Evans	94	October 14, 1927
wd:Q21176187	Barry Griffiths	92	July 12, 1929
wd:Q21176238	Wally Nash	92	June 10, 1929
wd:Q21176255	Jim Rattray	92	August 22, 1929
wd:Q21598239	Brian Lambert	91	October 10, 1930
wd:Q21598244	Brian Leary	91	May 24, 1930
wd:Q21598382	Lindsay Turnbull	91	October 9, 1930
wd:Q18388160	Dave Morgan	91	September 29, 1930
wd:Q21598099	Peter Charleston	91	August 28, 1930
wd:Q21598191	Jeff Harris	90	August 31, 1931
wd:Q21598342	Peter Scott	90	March 24, 1931
wd:Q19662447	John O'Mahony	90	December 7, 1931

There is quite a fulsome family tree on Ancestry which shows Worrall as still being alive, with a large family. I've contacted the tree owner as they seem to be logging on quite regularly and have given them link to our post enquiring about Worrall's status.

Will let you know what advice I receive.

 

[the croucher]

There is quite a fulsome family tree on Ancestry which shows Worrall as still being alive, with a large family. I've contacted the tree owner as they seem to be logging on quite regularly and have given them link to our post enquiring about Worrall's status.

Will let you know what advice I receive.

Have had reply from tree owner...unfortunately, not a close family member, so not able to help us.

 

[GreyCrow]

Did we ever come across reference to where Alan James “Ginger” Ryan was supposed to have been born in 1909 ? I’ve just checked Victorian BDMs and New South Wales BDMs and came up blank.

This article suggests a 1912 DOB http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page26424160 And a search of the electoral records suggest this is indeed an Alan James Ryan - Engineer at 10 Raleigh St - living with Eva (mother or wife?) - there is a marriage in 1938 of a James Alan to Eva Collier

1967 he is still in Thornbury but has moved to 738 High St - now with Lynette Joy - who passed away 8/11/2021 in Hobart (DOB 1947) notice in Mercury

The only Al(l)an Ryan in Victoria is Allan Ryan 1912 but he passes in 1913


Thats all for now - apologies for rushed

 

[35Daicos]

This article suggests a 1912 DOB http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page26424160 And a search of the electoral records suggest this is indeed an Alan James Ryan - Engineer at 10 Raleigh St - living with Eva (mother or wife?) - there is a marriage in 1938 of a James Alan to Eva Collier

1967 he is still in Thornbury but has moved to 738 High St - now with Lynette Joy - who passed away 8/11/2021 in Hobart (DOB 1947) notice in Mercury

The only Al(l)an Ryan in Victoria is Allan Ryan 1912 but he passes in 1913


Thats all for now - apologies for rushed

In 1954 he's still at Raleigh St. Thornbury, and living with Eva, so I think it's very likely she's his wife. Still together at Reservoir East in 1963, and (possibly) 1972 at Templestowe:

That does say Eve, but it's probably them.

This is likely the Eva Collier he married:


Here's the Wikipedia page for the mighty Albert Collier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Collier

So it looks pretty certain Alan Ryan married a sister of the Collingwood champs.
Yes, indeed!!:


There's also these couple of stories (one in a different paper to that earlier one) that make it look really likely he was born c. 1912, not 1909:



I see that regular poster WhiteHartLane23 has done a tree on Ancestry for Albert Collier, and there he has his sister Eva dying in 1993. Leading off her tree it has this for her spouse:


Another Ancestry tree has this for Eva's husband:


This is the closest I can get to a match for the above: https://savill.collections.slsa.sa.gov.au/savill-R.html


Nearly all Ancestry trees have him dying in Victoria in 1980.

If Ancestry has the right parents for the player then this is their marriage (NSW in 1911):

This isn't far off being a match for the birth reg.: