New Caledonia - independence referendum thread

[Admiral Byng]

I guess it deserves its own thread, seeing as they are quite close to Australia.

As part of the Nouméa Accord in 1998, there must be a referendum on independence from France by end of 2018. This will be held on 4 November.

Polls suggest the stay vote will carry the day easily - about 70% against independence. The majority of support for independence seems to be amongst the native Kanak people, with support running around 50/50.

It seems like a sensible vote to me to stay within France, rather than get carried away with all this anti-colonial bullshit and end up with a poor and corrupt tinpot republic that can't pay for any government services. I am not sure independence is such a good thing for very small nations.

 

[tandino]

Independence means little if you can't put food on the table.

But ultimately in the interests of self determination it is a matter for the people as it always should be.

There seemed to be a fair degree of momentum for independence a few years back but if they end up going it alone it will be a surprise.

 

[LeverPuller]

From a regional perspective I’m expecting major Chinese interference. Kicking the French out of the South Pacific is firmly in Beijing’s interests.

 

[Power Raid]

I trust by staying, the NCs have access to a French passport and thus EU entry?

 

[Admiral Byng]

I trust by staying, the NCs have access to a French passport and thus EU entry?

I think so. The French are a bit bombastic about their overseas domains being an integral part of France and all that.

 

[Elroo]

Ive just (Saturday) returned to OZ after a week in Noumea were I meet the New Caledonia's president Philippe Germain, and the Australian Consulate-General. Ive previously worked in New Caledonia, but Im now finally seeing signs of money actually being spent in the territory by the French - New International Passenger cruise terminal, road works etc. The Europeans I spoke to were committed to remaining a French Territory, but the Kanaks still have their belief in independence. It will be interesting if the vote is to leave, as I'd be sure the Chinesse would be keen to get involved in the area, especially with the strategic location of New Caledonia to Australia.

 

[Admiral Byng]

I wonder how much the French would want for it ??

 

[Elroo]

Results are in -

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-05/new-caledonia-rejects-independence-from-france/10464248

New Caledonia narrowly rejects independence from France in historic referendum

Voters in New Caledonia have rejected independence and decided to remain part of France.

Key points:

• 56.4 per cent voted No to independence
• Two more referenda are slated for 2020 and 2022
• New Caledonia has been part of France since 1853

Late last night the French government released provisional results showing 78,361 people voted No in yesterday's historic referendum, while 60,573 cast their ballot for Yes — a margin of 56.4 per cent to 43.6 per cent.

But the unexpectedly tight result ensures the debate for sovereignty will continue to dominate political life in this Pacific territory, with activists vowing to continue their struggle.

Some anti-independence politicians had been predicting they would win a handsome victory, suggesting that the No campaign could harness as much as 70 per cent of the vote.

And loyalists were heartened by early results suggesting more than 60 per cent of voters had rejected independence.

But the margin narrowed as the night wore on, with many indigenous Kanak communities in the north of the territory voting heavily for full sovereignty.

Late last night activists gathered at the headquarters of the pro-independence coalition FLNKS, blaring horns in celebration waving multi-coloured Kanaky flags.

A local FLNKS leader, Jean-Raymond Postic, was buoyant about the result.

 

[Bomberboyokay]

Sounds like European/French voted to stay, Indigenous voted to leave.

 

[Bollox]

Yesterday saw a "report" there would likely be another vote in a cpl of years, then another after that.
How does that work ?
You just decide to have 3 consecutive referendums until you get a certain answer ? Who decided that ?
Bizzarroland. I'll assume its crap.

 

[Elroo]

Yesterday saw a "report" there would likely be another vote in a cpl of years, then another after that.
How does that work ?
You just decide to have 3 consecutive referendums until you get a certain answer ? Who decided that ?
Bizzarroland. I'll assume its crap.

No its actually an agreement between the French and the Kanaks after the conflict that occurred in the 1980's -

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...rendum-call-to-reject-colonising-power-france

If it fails, the New Caledonian people may be allowed to hold two further referenda on the question of independence: one in 2020, and if that is unsuccessful, another in 2022.

 

[Bollox]

No its actually an agreement between the French and the Kanaks after the conflict that occurred in the 1980's -

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...rendum-call-to-reject-colonising-power-france

Cool. Thanx.
Assumed it was crap coz sounded so weird.
It still says "may have the option of". Could be a recipe for further turbulence.

 

[Elroo]

Cool. Thanx.
Assumed it was crap coz sounded so weird.
Yeah they've had a bit of turbulence before.

Australia has been showing the flag in New Caledonia in the recent 6-9 months with HMAS Choules, Canberra, Gascoyne, various Army and RAAF assets deployed to work with the French.

https://navaltoday.com/2018/05/17/a...rench-croix-du-sud-exercise-in-south-pacific/

Australian ships join French Croix du Sud exercise in South Pacific

HMAS Choules, alongside in Noumea, New Caledonia, is preparing to conduct Exercise Croix du Sud 2018. Photo: Royal Australian Navy

Royal Australian Navy ships have arrived in Noumea, New Caledonia, to take part in the French-led disaster response exercise Croix du Sud.

Amphibious landing ship HMAS Choules and Coastal Mine Hunters HMAS Gascoyne and Yarra will join French and Royal New Zealand Navy ships for the exercise which is running until May 25.

Exercise Croix du Sud (Southern Cross) 18 is the largest humanitarian assistance and disaster relief (HADR) training exercise in the South Pacific and is led by the French Armed Forces of New Caledonia (FANC).

HMAS Choules will be the command ship in the exercise. Commanding officer, Commander Scott Houlihan said they are looking forward to the task. “We are embarking a French Maritime Component Commander (MCC) staff to coordinate the HADR effort,” CMDR Houlihan said. “We will be working alongside the other principle amphibious ships including French Ship D’Entrecasteau and Her Majesty’s New Zealand Ships Wellington and Canterbury.”

The Australian government and Defence understands the strategic location New Caledonia plays to Australian defence interest, hence why we are deploying more assets to New Caledonia.

 

[Bollox]

Australia has been showing the flag in New Caledonia in the recent 6-9 months with HMAS Choules, Canberra, Gascoyne, various Army and RAAF assets deployed to work with the French.

https://navaltoday.com/2018/05/17/a...rench-croix-du-sud-exercise-in-south-pacific/

The Australian government and Defence understands the strategic location New Caledonia plays to Australian defence interest, hence why we are deploying more assets to New Caledonia.

Cheers. Great info on an important regional topic. Good to see we were at least buzzing around just in case.
Memories from a long time ago when reps of major mining co's were offering big tempting money to undergrads to go to Panguna/Ok Tedi/New Cal between years for a cpl months. Money was always incredibly tempting for a student, but the least you could expect was Malaria, and the worst was to get off a chopper and step in a mud sinkhole and be never seen again, or perhaps even butchered for fun or even for dinner. Might sound over the top NOW, but it was very real and not that long ago. Some horrible stories went around with many turning out to be factual. I didnt go, but a few from UNSW and Monash did...they didnt go back. Wild times. It wasnt THAT long ago.

Calm these days. Lets hope New Cal doesnt descend into a shitfight. History says turbulence in these Sth Pac regions gets extremely ugly and very difficult or impossible for nations like ours to keep out of it...and end up being blamed.

 

[Admiral Byng]

Cheers. Great info on an important regional topic. Good to see we were at least buzzing around just in case.
Memories from a long time ago when reps of major mining co's were offering big tempting money to undergrads to go to Panguna/Ok Tedi/New Cal between years for a cpl months. Money was always incredibly tempting for a student, but the least you could expect was Malaria, and the worst was to get off a chopper and step in a mud sinkhole and be never seen again, or perhaps even butchered for fun or even for dinner. Might sound over the top NOW, but it was very real and not that long ago. Some horrible stories went around with many turning out to be factual. I didnt go, but a few from UNSW and Monash did...they didnt go back. Wild times. It wasnt THAT long ago.

Calm these days. Lets hope New Cal doesnt descend into a shitfight. History says turbulence in these Sth Pac regions gets extremely ugly and very difficult or impossible for nations like ours to keep out of it...and end up being blamed.

I worked for a mining equipment company that supplied to the big nickel mine on NC (Goro). I got talking to one of our company guys that went out there. The mine is important to the local economy, but the locals and especially the natives hate it because it ****ed up the environment.

 

[HairyO]

Kanaks are desperate for self rule so they csn then sell the country to the Chinese - like every other island country in the Pacific. And SE Asia. And Africa.

You'd hope the poor Kanaks are aware of just what the political elites are planning.

 

[Reynolds Number]

 

[tandino]

Not a massive surprise is it?

 

[DaRick]

I disapprove of secession, because I honestly can't think of an example in which the newly independent region has improved economically or gained greater relevance as a result of seceding.

None of South Sudan, Kosovo, Transnistria, Montenegro, South Ossetia or Abkhazia seem to have benefited much from secession. They are at best heavily dependent on foreign investment (Montenegro) and are at worst outright anarchic (South Sudan).

So obviously I think 'stay' was the correct option.

 

[Power Raid]

I disapprove of secession, because I honestly can't think of an example in which the newly independent region has improved economically or gained greater relevance as a result of seceding.

None of South Sudan, Kosovo, Transnistria, Montenegro, South Ossetia or Abkhazia seem to have benefited much from secession. They are at best heavily dependent on foreign investment (Montenegro) and are at worst outright anarchic (South Sudan).

So obviously I think 'stay' was the correct option.

US?

 

[DaRick]

US?

Freeing yourself from colonialism is slightly different.

I should have said a 'recent' example though.

 

[tandino]

Freeing yourself from colonialism is slightly different.

I should have said a 'recent' example though.

Victorian independence from New South Wales was going fantastically until this year.

 

[DaRick]

Victorian independence from New South Wales was going fantastically until this year.

Way back in the day Joh wanted to make Queensland its own country.

Could you imagine 1980's Queensland as an independent country? It'd be an African-style economy with some (declining) manufacturing, services and tourism. Run by an increasingly unhinged autocrat.

 

[spinynorman]

No third world country has had it easy after rejecting colonialism, particularly their Pacific Island neighbours, but it's a necessary step in climbing out of the position the dominant power has relegated them to. Hopefully there's success for the Kanaks in a 2022 referendum.