"New drug and two more clubs in AFL doping saga"

[imperial_oz]

Fair enough for you to think that. But a team in a similar position Cronulla didn't sack their coach even after their players copped suspensions.


We have sacked the people who failed in their roles of making sure the high performance team was kept in check and were following correct procedures. Not matter what Hird says about taking responsibility, he is not in the chain of command for the group of people who broke protocols and got us into this mess.

The PR "war" and the media performances of Paul Little have been shocking, I agree, but that's just a mini side-story.

Not sure I agree with you about this being a mini side-story.

Disregarding the few posters that seem to have a strong dislike for Essendon, there have been many on here that didn't have a negative predisposition but have been turned off by Essendon's actions since the saga started. Myself and a number of people I've discussed this with had a fairly positive view of Essendon but have been turned around over the last year or so.

While a poster on BF has little or no impact on the outcome, I wonder how reflective that change of opinion is when it comes to the people who count. I can't tell you for sure that others are reacting the same way but I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.

I also disagree with your dismissal of Hird's role in all of this. The senior coach, particularly a larger than life club hero has real sway within the club regardless of the organisation structure on paper. I think he's had a real role in this and I'm honestly surprised he's got this far pretty much unscathed. If player do get suspended, he really must go. His actions, like Essendon's since the saga started have not reflected well on him and his position must surely be untenable if the players get suspended.

My view anyway. Your's may differ.

 

[Satan]

Name me an association/union that DOESN'T vigorously defend its members.

A bit of light reading about a few union officials and there alleged behavour and using members funds
http://www.tradeunionroyalcommission.gov.au/reports/Documents/InterimReportVol1.pdf
If want to read about a proven allegation
http://m.smh.com.au/nsw/michael-wil...alth-services-union-fraud-20140328-35n3f.html

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Name me an association/union that DOESN'T vigorously defend its members.

You're choosing to ignore the point.


These players make up less 5% of their members.
It's probably, or at least alleged, that they cheated and as a result put the other 95% at a disadvantage.

So that's one oddity in their public stance.

There's been not a hint of the AFLPA defending the greater good for its members - ie. supporting ASADA in their role to protect its members from cheating.

Instead, they've chose to join Essendon in demonising them and their role in ensuring their members get a clean and fair comp to compete in.


But the main point is, they know that AOD was injected into their members by the club, and with the full support of the club.
A drug that was banned by WADA, but more importantly a drug that was not approved for human use.
A drug that was not considered safe.
A drug that had recorded adverse side effects.
A drug that even when approved for human use, was only done so via a teaspoon and in tiny doses - not in massive doses via a needle
into its members' stomachs FFS!!

And, evidence suggests they were cocktailing this drug with other gear!


But who has the AFLPA teamed up with in this saga? The very entity that did this its members!!

It's extraordinary.

 

[Satan]

You're choosing to ignore the point.


These players make up less 5% of their members.
It's probably, or at least alleged, that they cheated and as a result put the other 95% at a disadvantage.

So that's one oddity in their public stance.

There's been not a hint of the AFLPA defending the greater good for its members - ie. supporting ASADA in their role to protect its members from cheating.

Instead, they've chose to join Essendon in demonising them and their role in ensuring their members get a clean and fair comp to compete in.


But the main point is, they know that AOD was injected into their members by the club, and with the full support of the club.
A drug that was banned by WADA, but more importantly a drug that was not approved for human use.
A drug that was not considered safe.
A drug that had recorded adverse side effects.
A drug that even when approved for human use, was only done so via a teaspoon and in tiny doses - not in massive doses via a needle
into its members' stomachs FFS!!

And, evidence suggests they were cocktailing this drug with other gear!


But who has the AFLPA teamed up with in this saga? The very entity that did this its members!!

It's extraordinary.

Excellent post ,aflpa going with essendon just seems incomprehensible. There is a conflict of interest but as we all know the afl is full of COI. The only way they will seperate is if the players are found guilty and the money dries up from essendon .If former happens i reckon the latter will too.

 

[SunshineBoy]

You're choosing to ignore the point.


These players make up less 5% of their members.
It's probably, or at least alleged, that they cheated and as a result put the other 95% at a disadvantage.

So that's one oddity in their public stance.

There's been not a hint of the AFLPA defending the greater good for its members - ie. supporting ASADA in their role to protect its members from cheating.

Instead, they've chose to join Essendon in demonising them and their role in ensuring their members get a clean and fair comp to compete in.


But the main point is, they know that AOD was injected into their members by the club, and with the full support of the club.
A drug that was banned by WADA, but more importantly a drug that was not approved for human use.
A drug that was not considered safe.
A drug that had recorded adverse side effects.
A drug that even when approved for human use, was only done so via a teaspoon and in tiny doses - not in massive doses via a needle
into its members' stomachs FFS!!

And, evidence suggests they were cocktailing this drug with other gear!


But who has the AFLPA teamed up with in this saga? The very entity that did this its members!!

It's extraordinary.

A couple of years ago Jobe wanted a sit down strike, perhaps the other 17 captains who are with the clean clubs should organise a sit down strike in protest against playing against doped up players

 

[Chameleon75]

You're choosing to ignore the point.


These players make up less 5% of their members.
It's probably, or at least alleged, that they cheated and as a result put the other 95% at a disadvantage.

So that's one oddity in their public stance.

There's been not a hint of the AFLPA defending the greater good for its members - ie. supporting ASADA in their role to protect its members from cheating.

Instead, they've chose to join Essendon in demonising them and their role in ensuring their members get a clean and fair comp to compete in.


But the main point is, they know that AOD was injected into their members by the club, and with the full support of the club.
A drug that was banned by WADA, but more importantly a drug that was not approved for human use.
A drug that was not considered safe.
A drug that had recorded adverse side effects.
A drug that even when approved for human use, was only done so via a teaspoon and in tiny doses - not in massive doses via a needle
into its members' stomachs FFS!!

And, evidence suggests they were cocktailing this drug with other gear!


But who has the AFLPA teamed up with in this saga? The very entity that did this its members!!

It's extraordinary.

nothing extraordinary at all, thats what unions do, defend the members with the immediate need first.

Years ago when it was called coles myer, they had a generous staff discount program, a handful of staff abused it. Long story short, the union defended them even though it resulted in the program being tightened to the detriment of the greater membership.

 

[fabulousphil]

nothing extraordinary at all, thats what unions do, defend the members with the immediate need first.

Years ago when it was called coles myer, they had a generous staff discount program, a handful of staff abused it. Long story short, the union defended them even though it resulted in the program being tightened to the detriment of the greater membership.

Yep unions are real bullies, tell that to the millions of kids and adults in sweat shops who still work as slaves, they wouldn't mind seeing a union official or two.

Your first world problem is just exactly that.

 

[yaco55]

You're choosing to ignore the point.


These players make up less 5% of their members.
It's probably, or at least alleged, that they cheated and as a result put the other 95% at a disadvantage.

So that's one oddity in their public stance.

There's been not a hint of the AFLPA defending the greater good for its members - ie. supporting ASADA in their role to protect its members from cheating.

Instead, they've chose to join Essendon in demonising them and their role in ensuring their members get a clean and fair comp to compete in.


But the main point is, they know that AOD was injected into their members by the club, and with the full support of the club.
A drug that was banned by WADA, but more importantly a drug that was not approved for human use.
A drug that was not considered safe.
A drug that had recorded adverse side effects.
A drug that even when approved for human use, was only done so via a teaspoon and in tiny doses - not in massive doses via a needle
into its members' stomachs FFS!!

And, evidence suggests they were cocktailing this drug with other gear!


But who has the AFLPA teamed up with in this saga? The very entity that did this its members!!

It's extraordinary.

Associations/Unions will always defend their members - Some will argue that the AFLPA weren't supportive enough of the players in the early stages of the saga ( at least publically ).

There is no way in the world that the AFLPA will not support its members - And the AFLPA will have the full support of its executive and its delegates - So in affect the players are supporting the 34 players.

 

[blackcat]

Associations/Unions will always defend their members - Some will argue that the AFLPA weren't supportive enough of the players in the early stages of the saga ( at least publically ).

There is no way in the world that the AFLPA will not support its members - And the AFLPA will have the full support of its executive and its delegates - So in affect the players are supporting the 34 players.

and this also raised the hypothetical paradox. the AFLPA For Us Players By Us Players ($hit grammar) FUBU,

if the AFLPA reps ~600 players. How does a hypothetical "clean" playing stock of ~560, how do they fancy paying union fees to support dirty dopers and have their lawyers fees paid for by their union fees? Lets Daniel Jackson and Luke Ball that puzzle shall we?

caveat: ok, the money comes from affal house, but the cash is fungible innit. and the lawyers fees will not be from AFLPA

 

[Argy]

and this also raised the hypothetical paradox. the AFPA For Us Players By Us Players ($hit grammar),

if the AFLPA reps ~600 players. How does a hypothetical "clean" playing stock of ~560, how do they fancy paying union fees to support dirty dopers and have their lawyers fees paid for by their union fees? Lets Daniel Jackson and Luke Ball that puzzle shall we?

caveat: ok, the money comes from affal house, but the cash is fungible innit. and the lawyers fees will not be from AFLPA

The other 560 might think the EFC 40 have been duped and that by helping them they will help protect themselves from future abuse by an unscrupulous coach and football staff.

[Most of them probably just want to keep their heads down.]

 

[blackcat]

The other 560 might think the EFC 40 have been duped and that by helping them they will help protect themselves from future abuse by an unscrupulous coach and football staff.

[Most of them probably just want to keep their heads down.]

yeah, this is a hypothetical.

but i dont think they will be thinking that the bombers players were thinking good faith from Albert and Dank and the good boys. they werent deferring thought.

premise is Spike et al, can actually meet the threshold for think. I know, its a stretch, i would need to see the MRI and the amygdala flashing like a christmas tree before i was sold

 

[yaco55]

and this also raised the hypothetical paradox. the AFPA For Us Players By Us Players ($hit grammar),

if the AFLPA reps ~600 players. How does a hypothetical "clean" playing stock of ~560, how do they fancy paying union fees to support dirty dopers and have their lawyers fees paid for by their union fees? Lets Daniel Jackson and Luke Ball that puzzle shall we?

caveat: ok, the money comes from affal house, but the cash is fungible innit. and the lawyers fees will not be from AFLPA

I can say that its never affected Police Associations in the various states - It's a badge of honour in this industry

 

[bing181]

Excellent post ,aflpa going with essendon just seems incomprehensible.

Agreed.

To my knowledge, similar associations representing athletes/participants in other sports, make a point of NOT defending any of their members facing doping charges.

 

[fabulousphil]

and this also raised the hypothetical paradox. the AFPA For Us Players By Us Players ($hit grammar),

if the AFLPA reps ~600 players. How does a hypothetical "clean" playing stock of ~560, how do they fancy paying union fees to support dirty dopers and have their lawyers fees paid for by their union fees? Lets Daniel Jackson and Luke Ball that puzzle shall we?

caveat: ok, the money comes from affal house, but the cash is fungible innit. and the lawyers fees will not be from AFLPA

So you think they are dirty dopers ?, i guess we should not worry about the current case, just name and shame, guilty as charged.

I guess when no one challenges your statement you actually think you are right in saying that.

Actually on reflection you are saying that anyone charged with anything should not get Union help.

Perhaps you should ask yourself what a Union is actually for.

 

[SunshineBoy]

Agreed.

To my knowledge, similar associations representing athletes/participants in other sports, make a point of NOT defending any of their members facing doping charges.

Yeah but we are Australians only other countries athletes are dope cheats

 

[blackcat]

So you think they are dirty dopers ?, i guess we should not worry about the current case, just name and shame, guilty as charged.

I guess when no one challenges your statement you actually think you are right in saying that.

cursory reading of my posts = NO exclamation marks!!!

No, i dont think they are "dirty dopers". I was being facetious. I just think they are cogs in the system, and my working thesis has always been NO value judgements, and doping =/= axiomatically poor character.

Actually on reflection you are saying that anyone charged with anything should not get Union help.

Perhaps you should ask yourself what a Union is actually for.

that is actually NOT what I was implying. The context was, "Why has Ryan Okeefe been the only player to j'accuse Hindy Will players?"

answer that riddle. And you get the quandary i raise, and what the quandary would indicate about the true culture and thought of the playing group on the other 17 teams.

there for the grace of god go i

 

[yaco55]

So you think they are dirty dopers ?, i guess we should not worry about the current case, just name and shame, guilty as charged.

I guess when no one challenges your statement you actually think you are right in saying that.

Actually on reflection you are saying that anyone charged with anything should not get Union help.

Perhaps you should ask yourself what a Union is actually for.

Think Blackcat is suggesting two things - May be issues in other clubs and that players show solidarity.

 

[Akka76]

Given this 2008 German research into Tattoo's being used to mask drugs, it makes you look at Dane Swan and Jake King in a whole new light, especially given their alleged links to the underworld.

Perhaps this is why we keep hearing of the underworld in this mess?

http://sportsanddrugs.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=002706

"Sky News, the UK's first 24-hour news channel, stated the following in an Aug. 7, 2008 article titled "Olympic Cheats Use 'Drug Tattoos," posted on its website:

"Olympic cheats are taking performance-enhancing drugs via tattoos [15]in an effort to win gold... Inserting drugs through tattoo needles increases the effect of drugs, meaning athletes can take smaller doses and 'fly under the radar' in dope tests.

Research in Germany has shown that delivering DNA vaccines via tattoo was 16 times more effective than injecting through the muscles or veins as the vibrating tattoo needle prepares the body's immune system and increases the body's response to the drug...

Former Australian Institute of Sport researcher Robin Parisotto said... 'With some of these things the technology is so new, the concept so bizarre, that there would only be a handful of well tapped-in athletes using it - but they will be experimenting at the Beijing Olympics because it is the ultimate. The problem is that some of the drugs would now fly under the radar with the tattoo technique because athletes would be taking a much smaller dose.'

Cheating athletes are also combining the erectile dysfunction drug Viagra with doses of nitrous oxide, or laughing gas. Both drugs increase the flow of oxygen in the blood stream and therefore boost sporting performance."

 

[Ancient Tiger]

Cheating athletes are also combining the erectile dysfunction drug Viagra with doses of nitrous oxide, or laughing gas. Both drugs increase the flow of oxygen in the blood stream and therefore boost sporting performance."

They may have got confused with a very different agent called nitric oxide which is what actually causes vasodilatation with subsequent higher flow rate and thus greater oxygen delivery. I doubt they would be using an anaesthetic agent which actually does not have that effect.

 

[evo]

They may have got confused with a very different agent called nitric oxide which is what actually causes vasodilatation with subsequent higher flow rate and thus greater oxygen delivery. I doubt they would be using an anaesthetic agent which actually does not have that effect.

yeah, it would be nitric oxide. The put it in the gym pre-workout drinks, l-arginine and l-citriline.

 

[Ants]

On the union front, do people also accuse defense solicitors of always defending their clients no matter what? What exactly do you think people pay union/association fees for?

 

[Satan]

On the union front, do people also accuse defense solicitors of always defending their clients no matter what? What exactly do you think people pay union/association fees for?

So they can work? Is being a member of the aflpa compulsory to enable to play Afl? Its sheer coincidence the former heads of the aflpa end up working for the afl or the clubs.
The fees of membership probably oay for the salary of the full time officials amongst other things.

 

[Albert Ross]

On the union front, do people also accuse defense solicitors of always defending their clients no matter what? What exactly do you think people pay union/association fees for?

I can tell you they don't go to paying the legal fees of strike breakers or others working against the Union's agenda.

 

[Ants]

So they can work? Is being a member of the aflpa compulsory to enable to play Afl? Its sheer coincidence the former heads of the aflpa end up working for the afl or the clubs.
The fees of membership probably oay for the salary of the full time officials amongst other things.

I don't know any of the specifics of the AFLPA, but generally the reason for saying people have to be part of a union is to avoid free loading on the negotiation side. I agree that can be a touch problematic, but so is not having anything. And the AFLPA I'm pretty sure does a lot more than just pay its officials.

I can tell you they don't go to paying the legal fees of strike breakers or others working against the Union's agenda.

It would depend on the particular union's rules and what is included in the provision of services, but I doubt that they can refuse to provide legal services for members. It's been a LONG time since I saw any such contracts though, so maybe its changed. However, usually strike breakers aren't members by their very nature. And they have a responsibility when negotiating new terms to act in the best interests of the majority of their members - that would certainly be a situation where they might act against the interests of some.

But I doubt they could refuse legal services even then if it is a union service. Well, legally. Anyone an do anything if nobody will challenge them.

 

[Milanista28]

A couple of years ago Jobe wanted a sit down strike, perhaps the other 17 captains who are with the clean clubs should organise a sit down strike in protest against playing against doped up players

Clean clubs ahahahahaha