Discussion Nicky Winmar

[Verdun]

Mediation has occured between the bloke who used to be on the footy show and Nicky Winmar mediated by Stan Grant and a former Federal Court Judge. With an apology being issued and:

- a cash settlement to an indigeonous charity.

Nicky Winmar said he 'is pleased it is resolved but we still need to work on a few things'.

Now what i expect from a lot of people yelling out to have their voices heard is that Nicky Winmar was only in it for the money (even though the money is going to indigenous charity.

He will only be in it for the money, like others in the past and others in the future who call out racism their character will be attacked not the racism.

Yup......predictable

if I was cynical I would suggest saint Nick probably hasn't much coin once footy finished and a lawyer might have mentioned being a professional victim pays okay and gets you on all sorts of boards or organisations, we will see

 

[Crusty Undies]

so Nicky is allowed to make mistakes but sam isn't? nickys feelings are hurt and that's a travesty but taxi driver getting beat up is just boys being boys?

Sam's allowed to make mistakes like everyone else. He's also got a limited number of mistakes just like everyone else. Sam Newman has a long and dare I say extravagant history of flaunting his lack of care for racial issues at best and being outright racist at worst. Sam's made enough mistakes and had far, far too many chances. At this point I'm comfortable that we can call him racist beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[Crusty Undies]

Fair call but I still disagree with this comment and that is fine.

'Because Goodes alienated people when he went after a teenage girl'

He did not go after a teenage girl, if people are put off by him pointing to where he the racist comment came from in the middle of a game frankly they should get over themselves.

He is ironically then called a sook!!!

I am sure he would have loved to have the time to identify the parents etc in a middle of a game. Sure he would have liked to have had a nice cup of tea with the rest of the Collingwood supporters who were probably hurling abuse but he had probably ignored that for ages up to that point..

Goodes and others have done a lot more than just that, but he was also hounded out of public life he is not the one to blame.

How could he single out the parents, to me that is just blaming him for standing up for himself, I respect him as I do Winmar for that act that he did at Victoria Park and for calling out the dinosaurs out who tried to re write history on his behalf

Racism has to stop from the racists and one's hearing it not the one's it is directed at.

As I said, if it makes you feel better change this: 'Because Goodes alienated people when he went after a teenage girl'
to this: 'Because Goodes alienated people when he singled out a teenage girl'.
The meaning is the same. I really don't see why you're getting hung up on 2 words that are essentially synonymous. As I've already said, several times now, feel free to reword it and I won't disagree to the new meaning because I'm not particularly attached to those 2 words over any others. Now can we drop the bolded font and requoting one sentence as a means of throwing the baby out with the bathwater?

 

[Verdun]

As I said, if it makes you feel better change this: 'Because Goodes alienated people when he went after a teenage girl'
to this: 'Because Goodes alienated people when he singled out a teenage girl'.
The meaning is the same. I really don't see why you're getting hung up on 2 words that are essentially synonymous. As I've already said, several times now, feel free to reword it and I won't disagree to the new meaning because I'm not particularly attached to those 2 words over any others. Now can we drop the bolded font and requoting one sentence as a means of throwing the baby out with the bathwater?

Chill mate all good with me, let's leave it that we can agree to disagree.

Your point is and you can correct me is that Goodes should not have singled out the teenage girl as this therefore alienated people, I disagree as 1. I do not believe he singled out a teenage girl and 2. That is not a reason for people to feel alienated, I respect him for doing so and that he like others has been discredited for calling out racism.

He should not be blamed is my opinion, i also believe it should not only be up to him to call out racism. Watch what will happen with Nicky Winmar in the coming weeks he will be the one copping it.

As I said happy to agree to disagree.

 

[tomjoad]

so Nicky is allowed to make mistakes but sam isn't? nickys feelings are hurt and that's a travesty but taxi driver getting beat up is just boys being boys?

No. That's not it at all. Sam has had more than one instance where he has shown deep insensitivity with regards to indigenous communities. It would be a mistake if it had of occurred once, but to do it twice or more times is to act deliberately. Nicky as far as I know is guilty of a mistake.

 

[George]

Mediation has occured between the bloke who used to be on the footy show and Nicky Winmar mediated by Stan Grant and a former Federal Court Judge. With an apology being issued and:

- a cash settlement to an indigeonous charity.

Nicky Winmar said he 'is pleased it is resolved but we still need to work on a few things'.

Now what i expect from a lot of people yelling out to have their voices heard is that Nicky Winmar was only in it for the money (even though the money is going to indigenous charity.

He will only be in it for the money, like others in the past and others in the future who call out racism their character will be attacked not the racism.

I don't think anyone will say Nicky was in it for the money, in fact I'd bet on it not being mentioned once. Glad it's resolved and Nicky can move on.

I brought it up cause everyone else swept it under the carpet

No it was a s**t comment completely unrelated to this matter specifically. Nobody is saying Nicky is exempt from criticism but on the topic of events surrounding Round 4, 1993 - he is. Now please, take your ordinary opinions somewhere else

 

[Crusty Undies]

Chill mate all good with me, let's leave it that we can agree to disagree.

Your point is and you can correct me is that Goodes should not have singled out the teenage girl as this therefore alienated people, I disagree as 1. I do not believe he singled out a teenage girl and 2. That is not a reason for people to feel alienated, I respect him for doing so and that he like others has been discredited for calling out racism.

He should not be blamed is my opinion, i also believe it should not only be up to him to call out racism. Watch what will happen with Nicky Winmar in the coming weeks he will be the one copping it.

As I said happy to agree to disagree.

Let me rephrase because maybe it's been lost in translation. I don't think Goodes was unjustified in pointing out anyone at the football who's racist towards him. Teenage girl or otherwise.

My argument is that: 1) Change is generated in corporations like the AFL by threatening their income. 2) Threatening income for a business in the public eye comes from public opinion. 3) Goodes didn't get the public on his side when he called out a teenage girl.

I'm not making a statement about whether he should've called her out or not. I'm not saying he's in the wrong or that he overstepped his bounds. All I'm saying is that the method he went about calling out racism predictably lead to no real change because it didn't hurt the AFLs income. As sad as it is that's how the world works.

 

[gringo2011]

if I was cynical I would suggest saint Nick probably hasn't much coin once footy finished and a lawyer might have mentioned being a professional victim pays okay and gets you on all sorts of boards or organisations, we will see

Or if I was cynical I'd say that SN worked out years ago that network executives made it very profitable to be a professional c$#@. When he had a team of Channel 9 lawyers behind him he could bat it all away. Seeking relevance in a world where he'd had to become more and more extreme to get noticed, he took to podcasting, unfortunately they are low budget self produced entertainment and don't have the protection of major networks.

I must have missed all the boards that Winmar sits on. Obviously the Society of Professional Victims don't put out their well paid executives list to public scrutiny.

 

[gringo2011]

Let me rephrase because maybe it's been lost in translation. I don't think Goodes was unjustified in pointing out anyone at the football who's racist towards him. Teenage girl or otherwise.

My argument is that: 1) Change is generated in corporations like the AFL by threatening their income. 2) Threatening income for a business in the public eye comes from public opinion. 3) Goodes didn't get the public on his side when he called out a teenage girl.

I'm not making a statement about whether he should've called her out or not. I'm not saying he's in the wrong or that he overstepped his bounds. All I'm saying is that the method he went about calling out racism predictably lead to no real change because it didn't hurt the AFLs income. As sad as it is that's how the world works.

Never acted while enraged and in hindsight would have operated a bit differently? If you have copped s**t for years, one little event that probably isn't even the worst can be the one that tips you over the edge. Imagine you lived in a foreign country and people treated you like s**t all day. You probably take it and take it and take it, until one day some guy pushes you out of the way or says the wrong thing and it boils over. Goodes was consolatory and reasonable once he realised her age and never seemed to demand retribution. He didn't apologised nor should he. He's right about it not being her, her parents and people around her have given her the idea that that was okay behaviour. We are more naive on race issues here. If that was the US and a pro athlete was racially targeted, there would be serious consequences.

 

[Verdun]

I don't think anyone will say Nicky was in it for the money, in fact I'd bet on it not being mentioned once. Glad it's resolved and Nicky can move on.


No it was a sh*t comment completely unrelated to this matter specifically. Nobody is saying Nicky is exempt from criticism but on the topic of events surrounding Round 4, 1993 - he is. Now please, take your ordinary opinions somewhere else

As long as you are here to clean that sort of rubbish out of here!

cheers George.

 

[Verdun]

Let me rephrase because maybe it's been lost in translation. I don't think Goodes was unjustified in pointing out anyone at the football who's racist towards him. Teenage girl or otherwise.

My argument is that: 1) Change is generated in corporations like the AFL by threatening their income. 2) Threatening income for a business in the public eye comes from public opinion. 3) Goodes didn't get the public on his side when he called out a teenage girl.

I'm not making a statement about whether he should've called her out or not. I'm not saying he's in the wrong or that he overstepped his bounds. All I'm saying is that the method he went about calling out racism predictably lead to no real change because it didn't hurt the AFLs income. As sad as it is that's how the world works.

Cheers Crusty, again I believe what Goodes did was ok - actually more than that I respect it, also think it will produce change over a period of time ie over time some people might hesitate before calling him 'attention seeking' of a 'sook' and actually understand why he reacted. More will call it out and the AFL will have to notice they are bleeding money right now will not want that to continue.

I believe history has been re written in various places and it should be called out - ie when Goodes is discussed it is about him as attention seeking and a sook not as I believe as someone who should be respected.

Let' move on

Reckon we will need to defend and support Nicky Winmar as he will cop crap in the future as well.

 

[IKE TURNER]

Or if I was cynical I'd say that SN worked out years ago that network executives made it very profitable to be a professional c$#@. When he had a team of Channel 9 lawyers behind him he could bat it all away. Seeking relevance in a world where he'd had to become more and more extreme to get noticed, he took to podcasting, unfortunately they are low budget self produced entertainment and don't have the protection of major networks.

I must have missed all the boards that Winmar sits on. Obviously the Society of Professional Victims don't put out their well paid executives list to public scrutiny.

no i said it could lead to getting on boards, Michael Long is a perfect example: an anzac day game at the MCG 80,000 people high pressure game and Longy came in with the knees and Monkhurst without thinking called him a black c##t which was wrong (hate to think how often Monkey would have been called an ugly c##t) end result Longy became rich and powerful and a figure head for injustices which for indigenous people was badly needed but Monkhurst was (and probably still is) branded a racistfor the rest of his life all because of a split second of not thinking

 

[Schneebly11]

but Monkhurst was (and probably still is) branded a racistfor the rest of his life all because of a split second of not thinking

I think some need to realise that when a racial slur is uttered and heard in public it isn’t because the person didn’t think for a split second. It isn’t because of a one time slip up.

It's because that person uses terms like that in casual private conversation and in a moment of frustration it is uttered in public and heard by all. There’s no doubt people who accidentally let slip a “black c**t” a “ni**er” or an “ape” use those terms in casual private conversations amongst friends often.

So what is required is for ordinary people who say that are nor racist to show it. When you’re around someone and a racial slur comes out, don’t just stay silent and hope they don’t say that in front of a black person, actively speak up and say back to that person what they said was wrong. Yes, you’ll probably be accused of being “woke”, “leftard”, “PC”, whatever slur the racist wants to throw back at you. You shouldn’t care. Because if we say there’s no racism anymore because people don’t use racial slurs in public but continue to say them privately then there’s still a lot of progress to be achieved.

 

[Verdun]

no i said it could lead to getting on boards, Michael Long is a perfect example: an anzac day game at the MCG 80,000 people high pressure game and Longy came in with the knees and Monkhurst without thinking called him a black c##t which was wrong (hate to think how often Monkey would have been called an ugly c##t) end result Longy became rich and powerful and a figure head for injustices which for indigenous people was badly needed but Monkhurst was (and probably still is) branded a racistfor the rest of his life all because of a split second of not thinking

Are you actually saying Michael Long became 'rich and powerful' due to being called a 'black c..t?' Wow.

I know we all need to acknowledge others opinions but that is one I may acknowledge but also dismiss quite quickly hope that happens with others. This belief that those being labelled as saying something racist are now the victims is quite amusing and ironical.

Have been told by someone in my household this weekend is clean up time round the house, apparently I will be spending it taking stuff to the tip......beauty. Think I'll stop at the Cascade at the end of the day and indulge in some Cascade Pale Ale - I'm out of here have a great day all enjoy!

Think Sydney play today, maybe there is a match day thread somewhere.

 

[gringo2011]

no i said it could lead to getting on boards, Michael Long is a perfect example: an anzac day game at the MCG 80,000 people high pressure game and Longy came in with the knees and Monkhurst without thinking called him a black c##t which was wrong (hate to think how often Monkey would have been called an ugly c##t) end result Longy became rich and powerful and a figure head for injustices which for indigenous people was badly needed but Monkhurst was (and probably still is) branded a racistfor the rest of his life all because of a split second of not thinking

As far as I know all that Long is involved with is his own foundation which is government funded and topped up by benefactors. If you have seen how these groups operate, money isn't the main reason for existing. I doubt very much that Long is well off. The only money making thing I could find that he's benefitted from is as a Jenny Craig ambassador. Monkey could easily make money off that too to be honest.

Monkey probably copped s**t but it doesn't mean he can racially abuse people.

 

[Yawkey way]

I

Never acted while enraged and in hindsight would have operated a bit differently? If you have copped sh*t for years, one little event that probably isn't even the worst can be the one that tips you over the edge. Imagine you lived in a foreign country and people treated you like sh*t all day. You probably take it and take it and take it, until one day some guy pushes you out of the way or says the wrong thing and it boils over. Goodes was consolatory and reasonable once he realised her age and never seemed to demand retribution. He didn't apologised nor should he. He's right about it not being her, her parents and people around her have given her the idea that that was okay behaviour. We are more naive on race issues here. If that was the US and a pro athlete was racially targeted, there would be serious consequences.

Somewhere on the boards here we’ve already done the adam Goodes booing to death, it would be interesting to see if attitudes have changed since.

I think crusty is right on the MCG incident, he couldn’t know but on tv nobody heard what was said but they did see a young girl and her grandmother being marched out.

I don’t know about the US either racial abuse or abuse in general depends on the venue to some extent although there has been a recent crackdown lots of players have been abused in Boston. Some players won’t sign there or have no trade clauses in their contracts because of it.

 

[lewdogs]

if I was cynical I would suggest saint Nick probably hasn't much coin once footy finished and a lawyer might have mentioned being a professional victim pays okay and gets you on all sorts of boards or organisations, we will see

* off loser.

 

[gringo2011]

To be honest I think he's actually probably just a troll. Ike Turner was a wife basher who's reputation was smashed after the 80s when Tina Turner wrote an autobiography which portrayed him as a monster. He blamed years of cocaine abuse for it.

 

[Joffaboy]

Firstly, when someone poses the same dilemma 5 times without addressing my response, I will respond the same way 5 times. Correct or otherwise. That is how a discussion works, 1 person says their part then the other responds and then the first responds and so on.

Second of all. He did go after a teenage girl. The fact that he softened his stance later when he found out who it was that he pointed out among ALL OTHERS in a crowd of 50+ thousand people doesn't change that. I'm not rewriting history by stating what occurred. It is rewriting history to pretend that Goodes didn't single out a teenage girl or to be so pedantic as to imagine that me saying "went after a teenage girl" means anything other than pointing her alone out in a crowd.

Finally, I don't disagree with the rest of what you said. We do need to change the environment people grow up in to prevent the inheritance of racism. So I'd appreciate it if you could stop pretending I did disagree with that or posting your last 4 sentences as some sort of gotcha.

I would also add that Goodes knew he would make headlines with what he said.

1) Adam Goodes had every right to call out anything he believes is racist toward him. Calling an indigeneous person an ape is always considered a racist slur. Did a 13 y.o girl know that or was she referring to Goodes being a hulking footballer? He certainly wasn't to know and in my eyes did the correct thing.
2) However Goodes had received media training and knew the soundbite that would head the news.
" The face of racism in Australia is a 13.y.o girl". That is what everybody took from that presser.
That was the first thing he said. The grab. Everything after that is superflous to the headline in many peoples minds.
3) so we have many fans seeing a young girl humiliated and perp walked out of the stadium being labelled the ,"Face of Australian racism". Even if thats not what his intention was, that was reality.
4) So we have fans with a grievance against Goodes who long perceived he was a (in the casual racist vanecular) a 'protected species' because he went into contests legs first and the AFL club, Sydney, had been given preferences that others didn't get ( see Barry Hall for one example). This is exacerbated by his running at the crowd with a pretend spear. Many believed once again Goodes and Sydney were given preferencial treatment and others would have been charged with inciting the crowd.
5) So we have a big named aboriginal football player ripe for 'barracking' by the opposition crowds. How is this traditionally done? Every time the player gets the ball they are boo'ed. Is it fair? Of course not, Bluey McKenna got booed for five years by Saints fans for being knocked out by Plugger.
6) Now the SJW's and talking heads come in and blithely brand every single person booing Goodes racist. The most ridiculous imposition of PC onto a crowds right to voice their duspleasure.
I am sure bogans and racists took the opportunity to vent their spleen at an indigeneous player.
7) when argued even one point I laid out above the person would be shut down and screamed at they were also racist. When asked why other indigenous players weren't booed for their race, we had people like Francis Leach saying they ' were the right type of aboriginal" in crowds eyes.
Excuse me? Nicky Winmar, Michael Long, David Wirrpinda, Gil McAdam were the right type of aboriginal? One of the most racist patronising things I think I ever heard.
8) So it reaches a cresendo, all football fans who boo are racist because it is deemed so, no nuance, no grey, if you boo you are labelled.
I hear Stan Grant say the only sensible thing. Basically it has got to bullying by the crowd, which I totally agreed it.
There will always be racists, one is POTUS, personally I never booed Goodes, I was always in despair as he usually tore us a new one to do that, but the hectoring and labelling of the talking heads like Richard Hinds without even counterancing or considering other factors drove a wedge into the footballing public and therefore the Goodes argument will never be resolved.
Also to also believe Goodes is just a victim of this issue is disingenuous to say the least.

 

[Joffaboy]

so sam Newman can have an opinion about an event and is a Nazi racist while winmar can punch the sh*t out of a taxi driver trying to make a living and is a saint. The reason I'm here is because I'm allowed to have a different opinion than you

Yeah you can piss off with your idiot #whataboutism.
Newman can have his own opinion but not his own facts and the FACT he is apologising is proof that his turgid ignorant stupid opinion was factually wrong.

 

[Crusty Undies]

I would also add that Goodes knew he would make headlines with what he said.

1) Adam Goodes had every right to call out anything he believes is racist toward him. Calling an indigeneous person an ape is always considered a racist slur. Did a 13 y.o girl know that or was she referring to Goodes being a hulking footballer? He certainly wasn't to know and in my eyes did the correct thing.
2) However Goodes had received media training and knew the soundbite that would head the news.
" The face of racism in Australia is a 13.y.o girl". That is what everybody took from that presser.
That was the first thing he said. The grab. Everything after that is superflous to the headline in many peoples minds.
3) so we have many fans seeing a young girl humiliated and perp walked out of the stadium being labelled the ,"Face of Australian racism". Even if thats not what his intention was, that was reality.
4) So we have fans with a grievance against Goodes who long perceived he was a (in the casual racist vanecular) a 'protected species' because he went into contests legs first and the AFL club, Sydney, had been given preferences that others didn't get ( see Barry Hall for one example). This is exacerbated by his running at the crowd with a pretend spear. Many believed once again Goodes and Sydney were given preferencial treatment and others would have been charged with inciting the crowd.
5) So we have a big named aboriginal football player ripe for 'barracking' by the opposition crowds. How is this traditionally done? Every time the player gets the ball they are boo'ed. Is it fair? Of course not, Bluey McKenna got booed for five years by Saints fans for being knocked out by Plugger.
6) Now the SJW's and talking heads come in and blithely brand every single person booing Goodes racist. The most ridiculous imposition of PC onto a crowds right to voice their duspleasure.
I am sure bogans and racists took the opportunity to vent their spleen at an indigeneous player.
7) when argued even one point I laid out above the person would be shut down and screamed at they were also racist. When asked why other indigenous players weren't booed for their race, we had people like Francis Leach saying they ' were the right type of aboriginal" in crowds eyes.
Excuse me? Nicky Winmar, Michael Long, David Wirrpinda, Gil McAdam were the right type of aboriginal? One of the most racist patronising things I think I ever heard.
8) So it reaches a cresendo, all football fans who boo are racist because it is deemed so, no nuance, no grey, if you boo you are labelled.
I hear Stan Grant say the only sensible thing. Basically it has got to bullying by the crowd, which I totally agreed it.
There will always be racists, one is POTUS, personally I never booed Goodes, I was always in despair as he usually tore us a new one to do that, but the hectoring and labelling of the talking heads like Richard Hinds without even counterancing or considering other factors drove a wedge into the footballing public and therefore the Goodes argument will never be resolved.
Also to also believe Goodes is just a victim of this issue is disingenuous to say the least.

Couldn't have said it better myself. In depth and nuanced explanation, well done sir.

 

[IKE TURNER]

Yeah you can piss off with your idiot #whataboutism.
Newman can have his own opinion but not his own facts and the FACT he is apologising is proof that his turgid ignorant stupid opinion was factually wrong.

maybe it's a FACT that these days you can have an opinion but only if it doesn't hurt someones feelings

 

[IKE TURNER]

As far as I know all that Long is involved with is his own foundation which is government funded and topped up by benefactors. If you have seen how these groups operate, money isn't the main reason for existing. I doubt very much that Long is well off. The only money making thing I could find that he's benefitted from is as a Jenny Craig ambassador. Monkey could easily make money off that too to be honest.

Monkey probably copped sh*t but it doesn't mean he can racially abuse people.

yes maybe monkey and longy could go on Jenny craig together, I can guarantee longy is very wealthy and he has politicians looking after him so they are allowed on his walk

 

[Moquo]

yes maybe monkey and longy could go on Jenny craig together, I can guarantee longy is very wealthy and he has politicians looking after him so they are allowed on his walk

You are claiming that Michael Long is very wealthy as a result of being racially abused?
He was a champion footballer that played for essendon, a club notorious for paying outside the salary cap (including post football career opportunities), but he is wealthy because monkhurst abused him?
How fortunate our indigenous brothers are! Robbie Muir must be worth millions.

 

[IKE TURNER]

You are claiming that Michael Long is very wealthy as a result of being racially abused?
He was a champion footballer that played for essendon, a club notorious for paying outside the salary cap (including post football career opportunities), but he is wealthy because monkhurst abused him?
How fortunate our indigenous brothers are! Robbie Muir must be worth millions.

no, Robbie( quite rightly) let emotion take over and was more a man of action which unfortunately for him opposition players and supporters used to their advantage. Don't get me wrong Longy does a great job and gives a voice to indigenous people but he was also paid thousands to have a centre for indigenous youth named after him