Not pagan bashing

[master_of_puppets]

Let me start by stating that this is not a pagan bashing thread. I just want to know what the thoughts are of the BF Carlton supporters, and any other supporter out there, in regards to the older coaches out there. Has the "new" game passed coaches such as pagan by?

I have read that a few posters think that we have the worst game Plan in the league. I have also read that many posters think that pagans game plan is the easiest to break apart.

What are your thoughts on pagans bag of tricks that he brings to the coaching table??

Does he have a future in this caper if he continues to play this ineffective style of play, and not will or able to adapt to the changing game??


I stress this is not a pagan bashing thread. I want serious discussion.

 

[smthomson]

Give him another couple of years before passing judgement. He will get his high draft picks at seasons end & no real excuses after then if no improvement shown within playing group. I still think he is the man to lead us back from oblivion

 

[HBF]

I believe Pagan is the man for us. We were playing a very good style of footy eaarlier in the year (even though it was the preseason comp) and we have just lost form and confidence over the past 14 weeks.

I agree with smthomson in that we will get some quality kids this year and possibly next, and with the future development of Walker, Waite, Thornton, Bryan and so on, let's see how Pagan has performed when his current contract expires.

 

[bibi01]

the game plan is fine, we just don't have enough talent and players with the hardness to execute it correctly.

 

[master_of_puppets]

I believe Pagan is the man for us. We were playing a very good style of footy eaarlier in the year (even though it was the preseason comp) and we have just lost form and confidence over the past 14 weeks.

I agree with smthomson in that we will get some quality kids this year and possibly next, and with the future development of Walker, Waite, Thornton, Bryan and so on, let's see how Pagan has performed when his current contract expires.

Agree we'll get some quality kids. I remember a quality kid picked up at number 4-6 in vance who is no longer playing AFL.

Lets get real, walker has show sweet FA as far as i'm concerned. He has played as many games as cooney, and yet cooney is the stand out at the moment.

we have no choice but to give pagan another 3 years, as we have signed him for that long.

At which time the club would have spent an estimated 1.6 mill over 6 years for a team that won 2 wooden spoons and finished in the bottom 4 for 4 of those 6 years. Money well spent.

We need a total overhaul of the coaching staff, bring in some new blood. How long are we going to accept failure so pagan can give jobs to his mates.

What's the bet pagans coaching staff will remain as is next year.

 

[Funkalicous]

3 years is enough time to show results. We should have never won the spoon in 2002, but we did. However it is an absolute miracle we didn't win the spoon in 2003 and this year it will take another miracle to avoid it. That's potentially 2 spoons in 3 years, with a tonne of belting within that term. If these were the results we were after then surely we could've found a cheaper coach to deliver them.

 

[mojo31]

Agree we'll get some quality kids. I remember a quality kid picked up at number 4-6 in vance who is no longer playing AFL.

Lets get real, walker has show sweet FA as far as i'm concerned. He has played as many games as cooney, and yet cooney is the stand out at the moment.

we have no choice but to give pagan another 3 years, as we have signed him for that long.

At which time the club would have spent an estimated 1.6 mill over 6 years for a team that won 2 wooden spoons and finished in the bottom 4 for 4 of those 6 years. Money well spent.

We need a total overhaul of the coaching staff, bring in some new blood. How long are we going to accept failure so pagan can give jobs to his mates.

What's the bet pagans coaching staff will remain as is next year.

Did not take long for you to start the Pagan bashing. A person of your word are you?

 

[bibi01]

Agree we'll get some quality kids. I remember a quality kid picked up at number 4-6 in vance who is no longer playing AFL.

Lets get real, walker has show sweet FA as far as i'm concerned. He has played as many games as cooney, and yet cooney is the stand out at the moment.

we have no choice but to give pagan another 3 years, as we have signed him for that long.

At which time the club would have spent an estimated 1.6 mill over 6 years for a team that won 2 wooden spoons and finished in the bottom 4 for 4 of those 6 years. Money well spent.

We need a total overhaul of the coaching staff, bring in some new blood. How long are we going to accept failure so pagan can give jobs to his mates.

What's the bet pagans coaching staff will remain as is next year.

cooney was playing SANFL seniors when drafted, walker playing u/18's. walker had a knee injury for most of 2004 pre-season.

you say overhaul coaching staff- who do we bring in?

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Did not take long for you to start the Pagan bashing. A person of your word are you?

Was thinking the same thing. Seems he went into the thread with an agenda and had to steer the conversation along those lines when the knockers didn't come out of the woodwork.

I'm fairly open minded on Pagan. My biggest concern is that he is either too hard or the players too soft to have a working relationship.

It is no surprise that a hard man like Glenn Archer and even Anthony Stevens, had a great relationship with Pagan and praise him right up. Meanwhile, poor old sensitive Corey McKernan kept running away from Denis.

AFL players are too pampered, they want to get paid and go home and don't invest as much emotionally as we fans do IMO.

 

[mojo31]

Was thinking the same thing. Seems he went into the thread with an agenda and had to steer the conversation along those lines when the knockers didn't come out of the woodwork.

I'm fairly open minded on Pagan. My biggest concern is that he is either too hard or the players too soft to have a working relationship.

It is no surprise that a hard man like Glenn Archer and even Anthony Stevens, had a great relationship with Pagan and praise him right up. Meanwhile, poor old sensitive Corey McKernan kept running away from Denis.

AFL players are too pampered, they want to get paid and go home and don't invest as much emotionally as we fans do IMO.

Agreed. Seems the younger players down at the Blues are trying hard (Waite, Thornton, Livingston, Walker etc) but the more senior players and the ones who have played under other coaches (recycled guys) dont have the right attitude. Pagan is not a Grant Thomas/ Chris Connolly type coach who wants to be the players friend, but a proven and ruthless coach at all levels. He has the runs on the board.
I realise Parkin towards the end and Brittain were all for the "empowerment" of the players. Letting them take responsibilty for there rehabilitation,training and weights etc. That works fine for guys like Craig Bradley who are fanatical in there training and preparation but not for 90% of players.
It seems the cleanout that Pagan had did not get rid of all the dissenting voices around the club. If Pagan has lost the playing group then fine. He has a contract for another 3 years. Ian Collins is backing him all the way. Good luck on the players hoping to go to another club next year. Cant see any other club wanting what players who cant make it at Carlton who are struggling.

 

[master_of_puppets]

Did not take long for you to start the Pagan bashing. A person of your word are you?

I'm not basing pagan. As for an agenda, all i wanted to discuss is whether or not pagan is past it. Everyone, other then carlton fans stick by pagan, and good luck to them.

I would personally like to see pagan make a change to his coaching staff. For starters elsough can go, and so can libba. Pagan needs to get rid of his yes men if we are to improve. This coupled with a game plan that is a little different to the one that is being picked to pieces by every other club will help in our climb up the ladder.

You mention that he needs to get rid of the dead wood and the voices of decent that currently exist in the club. What about the yes men who contribute nothing other then stroking pagans "ego"??

And i'm not pagan bashing. Just saying it as i see it. my opinion is worth sweet FA when it comes to sacking or retaining coaches or players. Just like every posters opinion is worth FA.

 

[bibi01]

I'm not basing pagan. As for an agenda, all i wanted to discuss is whether or not pagan is past it. Everyone, other then carlton fans stick by pagan, and good luck to them.

I would personally like to see pagan make a change to his coaching staff. For starters elsough can go, and so can libba. Pagan needs to get rid of his yes men if we are to improve. This coupled with a game plan that is a little different to the one that is being picked to pieces by every other club will help in our climb up the ladder.

You mention that he needs to get rid of the dead wood and the voices of decent that currently exist in the club. What about the yes men who contribute nothing other then stroking pagans "ego"??

And i'm not pagan bashing. Just saying it as i see it. my opinion is worth sweet FA when it comes to sacking or retaining coaches or players. Just like every posters opinion is worth FA.

serious question for you puppet.
with the players we have at our disposal currently, what game plan would you like to see us play?

 

[Uhumagoo]

serious question for you puppet.
with the players we have at our disposal currently, what game plan would you like to see us play?

Hey... We have the enviable ability to constantly miss targets by hand and foot, not pick up opponents, not work for eachother, not run hard and continually fumble the ball!... We just need a gameplan to work with these abilities and premierships... here we come!

 

[master_of_puppets]

serious question for you puppet.
with the players we have at our disposal currently, what game plan would you like to see us play?

For starters let me start by saying i wouldn't be playing kouta at CHB. He should be played in the middle, and rested up forward. I see pagan has sent hulihan back to the forward line, which is great.

I think we need to play one on one all over the ground, rather then letting the opposition run away from us so easily. We have talent, up forward, so why not try something different. Our season is gone. Why not try playing on at every opportunity.

We don't take enough chances, i think we should start flooding the midfield rather then the back line.

Having said this, i've never said i have the answers. If i had the answers i'd be a coach rather then a budget analyst.

Our kicking out of defence is the worst i have seen. We have the likes of bryan, 60 mtr kick and wait can take a good grab. Why not have a set paly where bryan kicks to a one on one contest to wait, kouta, deluca, thornton etc: then go back in board to a running campo, stevens, lappin, kouta, who in turn kicks to a leading forward in whit's fev, or any other forward we may have in there at that time.

Worked in 95-99 with christou and kouta.

Again i stress, i don't pretend to have the answers. But i do know what is happening right now is not working and we need to try something different.

The crash and bang type of footy that pagan is known for has gone. The game has evolved. why can't he??

And never, never play whits in the back line.!!!!

 

[Teagson]

For starters let me start by saying i wouldn't be playing kouta at CHB. He should be played in the middle, and rested up forward.

He's been in the midfield on occassions this year, and his ability to create clearances is amazing. The only problem is that his best years are past him, and we can't possibly expect him to have to impact he once had.

I think we need to play one on one all over the ground, rather then letting the opposition run away from us so easily. We have talent, up forward, so why not try something different. Our season is gone. Why not try playing on at every opportunity.

The trouble is, we flood back so consistently that there is never anyone up forward to kick it to.

If we played man on man we would lose by over 200 points each game. We simply do not have the talent to compete with the other sides.

We don't take enough chances, i think we should start flooding the midfield rather then the back line.

We do not have a great list, we cannot afford to take chances, or else we'll get smashed by even more.

Our kicking out of defence is the worst i have seen.

Agree with that. Watching the kickouts against the Bulldogs would be enough to make anyone cringe.

...

I don't know why everyone's all against Pagan here. What on earth can he do with our current list?

I think it's a testament to his coaching ability that we were able to string together so many wins last year and even take home the Wizard Cup.

Let's just watch how the team progresses in the next few years before we make a judgement.

 

[bee dee]

Just watched training and Carlton is crap, cant hit a target and no structure at all. One drill was to have 20 players up each end and just kick it up in the air and see what happens. No skill level was worse than a local club, who else saw this today. Pagan is a 70's coach who can not has not and will not develop young talent, l mean play anyone under 20 who hasnt devleoped a body