Opinion Off-ball Midfielders

[felsty]

Bit of a strange topic but just bear with me.

Everyone supporter or team during preseason talks about the young guys who they want to see step into the midfield rotations and become a permanent fixture through the centre of the ground. But what about players who are talked about in these circles who we believe are better being played where they area?

There are a number of players on our list that fit this category and provide valid points of discussion:

• Shane Savage - should he move up to a wing or is he too much of a threat breaking lines from defence?
• Tim Membrey - again, do we really need his size and shape bursting through the midfield or will his marking game and attacking nature mean he is more of a threat up forward?
• Nick Riewoldt - one that has almost come out of necessity but would we be a better team with him up front or linking up through the middle of the ground?

There are a number of others, defenders such as Webster, DMac, and White and forwards such as Lonie, Sinclair and Billings. I think for some its a natural progression but I think, particularly with defenders, we try and manufacture this idea that they will all turn into wingmen, when really I don't think we should be changing their position at all as they should be given the time to excel in these areas.

One such example from another club has been Kade Kolodjashnij who Rocket said he made a mistake with trying to turn him into a wingmen at the start of last year when he played a much more rounded game once heading back inside defensive 50.

Discuss.

 

[George]

Savage should definitely play across half back, Membrey isn't in the 22 unless he improves, and Roo on a wing is interesting - it may prolong his career like it did with Matthew Richardson.

 

[FlyingSledghamer]

I agree with this. Play to their strengths. Coaches move players around to quickly.. I think its cause they dont rate the flanks.. Newnes 2014 compared to 2015.
Better teams have less need to move around players though.
Weller as a shut down player compared to a small fwd.
Savage as a pocket compared to a midfielder.
Hickey as a ruckman compared to a fwd.

 

[FlyingSledghamer]

The interesting one for me is Weller.. i call him a specialist player. A cooler.. IMO hes the perfect bench player. As soon as someone gets on fire chuck weller on him mid back fwd.. that would be playing to his strengths. You could play him on a Murphy or a Betts.

 

[felsty]

The interesting one for me is Weller.. i call him a specialist player. A cooler.. IMO hes the perfect bench player. As soon as someone gets on fire chuck weller on him mid back fwd.. that would be playing to his strengths. You could play him on a Murphy or a Betts.

A Cooler. I like that!

 

[Saintbloke]

What we need is elite quality in the midfield and until we get that, we are not going much higher on the ladder - maybe one of our recruits will show some spark this season. Savage is definitely a running half back and that's his position. I just need to see all our mids and potential mids, getting more of the ball in the contested situation and then converting it to the team's advantage. Might need to wait and see what this season brings before we can look much further- a lot of players need to step up in 2016.

 

[DarkSaint]

I like Savage across the half backline with his kicking and break away speed. We can use McKenzie, Newnes etc on the wings.

Roo needs to play wing for the development of Paddy and Co plus the future of our forward line.

 

[#gosaintas]

A Cooler. I like that!

I like it too - put him on a burning Hodge and see how he goes

 

[Defacto]

for me i want to see freeman really take over the inside spot from steven... allowing steven to go to the wing or even HFF as he gets older

 

[gringo2011]

Sav is an interesting one, when he came they tried to move him to a wing and he sucked so bad he went back to Sandy to get confidence back. He was average then they sent him back and it was like a light switch turned on, I watched that game and it was like he had an adeline shot. He was all of a sudden running past 4 opposition players, kicking long and direct and looked like star again. Never seems to have moved from the back half since. I worry he will go MIA again but the temptation is there, it looks an obvious move in theory. I reckon Sinclair, Lonie and Billings might get to play spells on a wing and Newnes seems to be earmarked as a wingman longer term. J Webb is often takes about as a future wingman too.

 

[plugger66]

A wingman is a midfielder except after a goal. I cant see Roo being able to play in the midfield because he isn't good enough below his knees. He will do it occasionally but I think in most games he will be a forward roaming over half the ground. If you can play wing you can play as a mid. The days of a winman running up and down the ground out wide are well and truly over.

 

[Phoenix_9]

A wingman is a midfielder except after a goal. I cant see Roo being able to play in the midfield because he isn't good enough below his knees. He will do it occasionally but I think in most games he will be a forward roaming over half the ground. If you can play wing you can play as a mid. The days of a winman running up and down the ground out wide are well and truly over.

I'd suggest Isaac Smith and Brad Hill are almost pure wingmen, something most sides lack, and makes Hawthorn line breaking, and incredibly dangerous

 

[majortinkle]

A wingman is a midfielder except after a goal. I cant see Roo being able to play in the midfield because he isn't good enough below his knees. He will do it occasionally but I think in most games he will be a forward roaming over half the ground. If you can play wing you can play as a mid. The days of a winman running up and down the ground out wide are well and truly over.

He'll be a wingman/midfielder in terms of where he'll play but not how he plays.

 

[plugger66]

I'd suggest Isaac Smith and Brad Hill are almost pure wingmen, something most sides lack, and makes Hawthorn line breaking, and incredibly dangerous

They are outside mids which most wingers are. They still go to pretty much most stoppages apart from after a goal.

 

[Phoenix_9]

They are very much outside mids and rarely contest the stoppage, they are receivers only (about 80% of their possessions are uncontested, Smith 76%, Hill 83%). Do we have any similar players on our list? Should we have similar players on our list?

 

[plugger66]

They are very much outside mids and rarely contest the stoppage, they are receivers only (about 80% of their possessions are uncontested, Smith 76%, Hill 83%). Do we have any similar players on our list? Should we have similar players on our list?

They still go to stoppages. Billings is our ideal player for that role and I'm sure he will play it this year if fit.

 

[RoundCubic]

A wingman is a midfielder except after a goal. I cant see Roo being able to play in the midfield because he isn't good enough below his knees. He will do it occasionally but I think in most games he will be a forward roaming over half the ground. If you can play wing you can play as a mid. The days of a winman running up and down the ground out wide are well and truly over.

Agree Roo will be a better version of ex saint lynch. If the move is successful Roo will be able to play for a couple more years

 

[Rors]

Savage & Membrey should be left where they are. Roo should be shifted up the ground to the wing to allow a better transition of dependance in the forward line - play him forward if we're desperate in a game, otherwise leave him up on the wing.

On the other hand, Minchington needs to be given a go in the midfield. The game he played in the Sandy prelim against Box Hill suggests that he could be very good in there if given a go for a decent block of games.

 

[gringo2011]

These days even guys who get plonked in pockets have to run all over the ground. That was one of the things I noted from going to matches live this year was that Lonie, Mav and Sinclair for example and even Members were all deep back when the ball was in the oppositions hands. They spread out on the turn over and usually one goes down to help out the single player hanging back around our 50 meter line. There is a focus on guys that can run these days. Once your forward pockets could be that unfit little short arse who didn't do much but crumb the ball. Now they are extra wing men. Same for the flanks but that was probably always more of a runners game. I reckon we even refer to just about everyone who isn't a KP as a "mid" these days because the traits have to be about the same now. There aren't many "utility" types left.

 

[Persevering Saint]

It's an interesting discussion, ARR. Thanks for bringing it up.

First point: Look at somebody like Milne? A rare example of a specialist small forward, who virtually never went into the midfield. I wonder if Lonie is similar?

 

[Persevering Saint]

I think that this is somewhat similar to the Longer/Hickey debate currently taking place in the pre-season thread. Just as we're saying something like a 70/30 or 90/10 balance between somebody like Longer and Hickey, similar dynamics are here.

A lot of this is brought about by the changes to the sub and interchange this year. Resting players in other positions becomes more important. More pure midfielders like Armo and Steven, can be VERY dangerous resting forward - look at 12Chill 's fine video of Armitage, and you'll see he kicked some fabulous goals, with some amazing goal sense.

So for somebody like Armitage, it could be that his TOG is framed like this: 75% in the midfield, 15% on the bench, 10% on the forward line. Now, the thing is, when he's off the ground or in the forward line, somebody has to take his role in the midfield: so that's when somebody like Lonie or Billings might come in. That means that Lonie needs to be something like 80% in forward line, 10% on the bench, 10% in the midfield. The precise proportions may vary, but you get the idea. The non-KP forwards and backs will be encouraged to take time in the midfield, and the mids will rest either forward or back.

Then it becomes a question of, okay, so you've got to spend 10-15% time in the midfield, so, what can you bring to the team when you're doing that? Members bring his muscle, his presence, and his marking. Savage brings his line breaking and clean boot. Sincs brings his clearance work, etc. Billings brings his outside creativity, x-factor and clean disposal. All of this could be a nightmare for oppositions to match up on.

 

[hayes]

It's an interesting discussion, ARR. Thanks for bringing it up.

First point: Look at somebody like Milne? A rare example of a specialist small forward, who virtually never went into the midfield. I wonder if Lonie is similar?

I think he'll be more Schneider than Milne. Richo has already said Lonie will be spending some time in the midfield this year already. He doesn't have to be a full time mid (I really think the club see him as a small forward long term), just needs to do stints in there like a Rioli or Puopolo.

 

[gringo2011]

I think he'll be more Schneider than Milne. Richo has already said Lonie will be spending some time in the midfield this year already. He doesn't have to be a full time mid (I really think the club see him as a small forward long term), just needs to do stints in there like a Rioli or Puopolo.

Yeah the days of small forwards who can just kick goals and don't offer much the other way are pretty much gone. Milne got away with it because he was so good at winning the ball and converting but it's another era now.

 

[RoundCubic]

Yeah the days of small forwards who can just kick goals and don't offer much the other way are pretty much gone. Milne got away with it because he was so good at winning the ball and converting but it's another era now.

Milne in later years was a little better defensively and up the ground.
A small forward who can match the goals of a full forward can still hold his spot but Eddie Betts is probably the only one around today

 

[SaintsSeptember]

It's an interesting discussion, ARR. Thanks for bringing it up.

First point: Look at somebody like Milne? A rare example of a specialist small forward, who virtually never went into the midfield. I wonder if Lonie is similar?

That may have been true early in his career, but in the end he was all over the ground.
It wasn't his strength but he was there.