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Open Mike

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SuperSteele22 said:
I also scoffed at the fact that towards the end of the episode when asked by Mike why the club had been so unsuccessful, each and every one of the people interviewed mentioned 'luck' as part of their answer. Sure it takes a little bit of luck here and there to end up on the dias, but if you simply rely on luck to get you over the line then of course you're going to fall short more often than not.
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I didn't scoff so much but the old eyebrows went up when just about every interviewee mentioned 'culture' as one of the reasons too. Goes to show it's more than just a BF staple that gets thrown about.
 
SuperSteele22 said:
I also scoffed at the fact that towards the end of the episode when asked by Mike why the club had been so unsuccessful, each and every one of the people interviewed mentioned 'luck' as part of their answer. Sure it takes a little bit of luck here and there to end up on the dias, but if you simply rely on luck to get you over the line then of course you're going to fall short more often than not.
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I think being unsuccessful for so long makes some people feel 'entitled' to a flag when they make a GF/prelim. When you've been poor for so long it is easy to blame luck in big games when in reality you just weren't good enough.
 
Beerfish said:
Shame Harvey's attitude didn't rub off on the rest of the group then. Given the culture there, I doubt Barry was the only one with that attitude. To his credit though he also said it was why he left and that St Kilda was probably better off for him doing so. I wonder how many that felt similarly to Barry didn't.

It was also interesting how somebody said that there was never any talk at the club of their great history or the good times because there just simply isn't any.
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Well, the rest of the group hasn't commented. Only Barry Hall, from his 19 year old perspective. And its not like footy was his first love, I believe, especially at that age, boxing was still a big deal to him.

schmuttt said:
I think being unsuccessful for so long makes some people feel 'entitled' to a flag when they make a GF/prelim. When you've been poor for so long it is easy to blame luck in big games when in reality you just weren't good enough.
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I'm not going to comment on the earlier grand final performances, 1997, we had a good year and yeah, some extenuating circumstances leading into the GF. Was not ideal to lose both Lazar & Spider.

And, 09/10 been documented enough. Missed opportunities, bad bounces, one mistake and in either GF results could have been the opposite (one point, that was awarded a goal....). It IS a little bit of bad luck.
 
Luck is what's left after giving your best. St.Kilda gave their best in '09 and '10 but it was not enough and when they had to rely on luck it was with the other mob. That explains those GF losses, but why were they playing competitive finals in '91-92 but useless by '94? How can they play in a GF in '97 and be last by '00? How do you lose GFs in '09-10 and be bottom 4 by '13? The focus should have been more about why and how a club can spend so long in the doldrums only to shoot themselves in the foot whenever they get back on track.
 

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Marstermind said:
Luck is what's left after giving your best. St.Kilda gave their best in '09 and '10 but it was not enough and when they had to rely on luck it was with the other mob. That explains those GF losses, but why were they playing competitive finals in '91-92 but useless by '94? How can they play in a GF in '97 and be last by '00? How do you lose GFs in '09-10 and be bottom 4 by '13? The focus should have been more about why and how a club can spend so long in the doldrums only to shoot themselves in the foot whenever they get back on track.
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Judging by the interviewees last night it came down to culture, poor management, poor selection.. pretty much you name it, it was poor. Maybe it was only luck they ever get up to contend.

Ross Oakley was talking about the mentality of certain clubs and he said St Kilda and Footscray always seem to have the mentality that even when they are playing finals they feel they don't deserve to be so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
 
SuperSteele22 said:
I also scoffed at the fact that towards the end of the episode when asked by Mike why the club had been so unsuccessful, each and every one of the people interviewed mentioned 'luck' as part of their answer. Sure it takes a little bit of luck here and there to end up on the dias, but if you simply rely on luck to get you over the line then of course you're going to fall short more often than not.
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We were incredibly unlucky in 2009 when even the weather turned against us taking our one true advantage over Geelong away. 2010 we started as premiership favorites then lost Lovett before it started lost Riewoldt for all but a few games and even when he returned below his usual form. We also lost Steven and Armo with long term injuries for the season meaning we had to play Eddy and Peake. We somehow make the with Kosi Dal Santo Gram carrying injuries in from the prelim we then lose our number one ruck just after quarter time. Yeah we were lucky.
 
Beerfish said:
Judging by the interviewees last night it came down to culture, poor management, poor selection.. pretty much you name it, it was poor. Maybe it was only luck they ever get up to contend.

Ross Oakley was talking about the mentality of certain clubs and he said St Kilda and Footscray always seem to have the mentality that even when they are playing finals they feel they don't deserve to be so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts.
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Yeah. It would have been good to have heard from Alves, Watson, Sheldon, Blight, Thomas - the guys who were charged with changing the culture and producing winning teams. Buterss would have been good too as well as more from Plympton, who sacked a tough, unpopular but winning coach for a nice guy who did what the board told him.
 
Adam H said:
We were incredibly unlucky in 2009 when even the weather turned against us taking our one true advantage over Geelong away. 2010 we started as premiership favorites then lost Lovett before it started lost Riewoldt for all but a few games and even when he returned below his usual form. We also lost Steven and Armo with long term injuries for the season meaning we had to play Eddy and Peake. We somehow make the with Kosi Dal Santo Gram carrying injuries in from the prelim we then lose our number one ruck just after quarter time. Yeah we were lucky.
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Well to be fair, you didn't 'lose' Lovett. You sacked him.
 
Adam H said:
Still lost him though and I have no doubt he would have made a points difference in the tie.
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Absolutely. All I meant was you didn't lose him through injury like all those other guys you mentioned. You lost him through another poor decision made by the club in sacking him when he very well could have been the difference. No bad luck involved there.
 
Beerfish said:
Absolutely. All I meant was you didn't lose him through injury like all those other guys you mentioned. You lost him through another poor decision made by the club in sacking him when he very well could have been the difference. No bad luck involved there.
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I'm not sure it was a bad decision by the club to sack him he really left them no choice.
 

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SuperSteele22 said:
I also scoffed at the fact that towards the end of the episode when asked by Mike why the club had been so unsuccessful, each and every one of the people interviewed mentioned 'luck' as part of their answer. Sure it takes a little bit of luck here and there to end up on the dias, but if you simply rely on luck to get you over the line then of course you're going to fall short more often than not.
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But luck plays a massive role in one single game.

1997 we lost 2 good ruckmen, plus nicky winmar and stewart loewe had family issues in grand final week.
No amount of culture or work can change bad luck in 97.

When the margins were 6 points and a draw in 2 straight years what more could the club possibly do again no amount of culture can change that, when the margins are that fine sometimes lady luck needs to be on your side.

Injuries have honestly killed a lot of St Kilda grand final attempts 91-93, 97, 2005, 2009 and 2010 St kilda had injuries to key players. Unless culture can stop someone shoulder or collarbone from breaking or separating.
 
That was brutal viewing if you're a Saints supporter.

St Kilda's back six in that 97 GF certaintly wasn't the strongest on paper. Watching Shanahan paces behind Jarman who really wasn't that quick just seems a blunder of a matchup. That GF matchup comprised two teams who weren't particularly strong in a fairly open premiership race, both had been out of finals for 3-4 years running, so it was in some ways a 50/50 contest. Blight had coached three Geelong sides to grand finals to Alves' none. I just think in the final play of the day Blight recognised a winning move based on having more experience and seized it there and then.

I think the Saints 04'-10' side were very strong and didn't capitalise on the list they had. I think on their day during that period they were better than lots of the top teams, just not when it mattered unfortunately. I thought the 09' GF was purely them dominating the general play to a slow-out-of-the-blocks Geelong, but just not having the gloss on their finishes in front of goal.

Not to offend any Saints supporters, but I think the doco in some ways answered its own question of why the Saints haven't been successful. 26 spoons and 5 or so GFs over 100 years at an average of 1 every 20-25 years just shows that they've struggled a lot more than they've dominated at any stage in their history.
 
Father Jack said:
I'd like to know what machinations led them to lose the Frankston zone to Hawthorn, as that sounds like it had more impact than mere luck and culture
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Got the impression that the Hawks cane along and did some dealings with the VFL to take it off St Kilda
 

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Father Jack said:
I'd like to know what machinations led them to lose the Frankston zone to Hawthorn, as that sounds like it had more impact than mere luck and culture
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Yeah they mentioned Leigh Matthews as one player they missed out on. Someone mentioned a couple of other big Hawthorn stars from the day but can't remember who. Imagine if Lethal had been a Saint. :eek:
 
Marstermind said:
Cool. What questions would you guys ask him?
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Was he one of the players who wanted Aker to be sacked from the Lions?

Don't know what else to talk about with Black though apart from accolades.
 

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