Operation 2017

[NarklesHelmet]

Exactly. That is the big wildcard that makes it incredibly difficult to predict what will happen over the course of a few years for any club.

We didn't even get them through free agency, but look at what a difference getting Gehrig, Hamill and Lawrence in one trade week made to us about a decade ago.

Yep, I feel many of us Saints fans are forgetting that a lot of our resurgence a decade ago was not soley (or even primarily I would argue) based on getting youth in. It was down to a very aggressive and succesful pursuit of the above (and adding Luke Penny, Brett Voss and Steven Powell on top of them) at a difficult time for the club that helped put us back on the map. I am really hoping that we can learn from this aggressiveness and show the same sort of stuff this year instead of sitting back thinking "such and such a player wouldn't want to come here." It can be done.

 

[aussierulesrules]

In 2017, both Dal and Joey will be 33 - same age as Lenny is now. Neither have been injured much during their careers. So I reckon they'd be a chance of still being playing then. Ditto Sam Fisher, who was a late starter and will be 34 in 2017.

This is why I'd probably be aiming our next premiership tilt at 2015, when those you mentioned are two years younger (Fisher would be 35 by 2017, BTW, so would be 33 by 2015) and Roo could still be around and "only" 32.

If we don't lose anyone off our list that we really don't want to and do manage to add say a Dale Thomas and a Mitch Brown this year and maybe one or two more like that the year after, then I really believe we could be in a position to have another big crack by 2015. No doubt about it.

 

[Tongue In Cheek]

This is why I'd probably be aiming our next premiership tilt at 2015, when those you mentioned are two years younger (Fisher would be 35 by 2017, BTW, so would be 33 by 2015) and Roo could still be around and "only" 32.

Roo's knee is a timebomb. By 2015 we really need Lee to be demanding regular games alongside Maister who is 27, and for whom we need White to step up by 2017. That's the succession plan I'm expecting.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Roo's knee is a timebomb. By 2015 we really need Lee to be demanding regular games alongside Maister who is 27, and for whom we need White to step up by 2017. That's the succession plan I'm expecting.

Roo's knee is reportedly significantly better since he had the treatment on it last year, which has apparently done wonders for those in other sports around the world and has likewise allowed Adam Cooney to train fully again and get back to his best footy, so I don't think it's anywhere near the "timebomb" it previously was.

Nick is hoping to play for at least two more seasons and I think if his knee does hold up he could still be a handful by 2015, when he'll be the age Adam Goodes, Jude Bolton, Lenny Hayes and Stephen Milne were last year. All things being equal, by then Spencer White will be the age Jack Darling and Sydney's Sam Reid were last year, Lee, Hickey and Stanley will be 24 and Siposs (who could be playing forward) will be 22 and have 5 AFL preseasons under his belt.

I believe we could have a very strong team by then if we keep those want to at the club and hit free agency, the draft and trading really hard and well.

 

[Richter]

This is why I'd probably be aiming our next premiership tilt at 2015, when those you mentioned are two years younger (Fisher would be 35 by 2017, BTW, so would be 33 by 2015) and Roo could still be around and "only" 32.

If we don't lose anyone off our list that we really don't want to and do manage to add say a Dale Thomas and a Mitch Brown this year and maybe one or two more like that the year after, then I really believe we could be in a position to have another big crack by 2015. No doubt about it.

I really think that any resurgence will be built on the back of the 2011-12 draft group maturing (ie reaching their peak ages of 23-25) along with a couple of precocious low dps from the 2013-14 drafts (ie show something by their early 20s) which suggests a target of 2017.

 

[Squizz]

http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-ne...ld-prove-a-winner-for-all-20130419-2i5ra.html

Pelchen ''We were disappointed to lose Brendon but, having said that, it has created opportunities for the club to add a ruckman in Tom Hickey, who we had been looking at for a while, and to secure a player in Spencer White, who we think, long-term, could benefit the club even more than Tom.''

Search YouTube for White and watch his video clip, you will see why there is excitement about him. He has limitations that are not evident in the clip, but there are things about the way he moves that had more than just the Saints' recruiter excited about him.

 

[Richter]

What last really rammed home to me was the importance of having the bulk of your midfield engine room and spine in that 23-28 prime age group.

Look at the respective teams...

Saints
spine: Stanley (22), Fisher (30), McEvoy (23), Riewoldt (30), Maister (27)
engine: Steven (23), Armitage (24), Hayes (33), Dal Santo (29), Montagna (29), Ross (19), Jones (29)

Bombers
spine: Hooker (24), Carlisle (21), Hille (31)/Bellchambers (23), Hurley (22), Gumbleton (24)
engine: Watson (28), Stanton (26), Heppell (20), Zaharakis (23), Goddard (27), Howlett (24), Hocking (25), Winderlich (28)

We had 4/12 in that prime age group, with only one about to enter it, another a teenager and 6 past it.
The Bombers have 10/14 in that group with 3 coming up to it and one over it. In reserve they also have Fletcher (45)and Ryder (25).

It's frankly a testament to our team that we didn't get blown away by more by the Bombers.

Looking at our youth coming through here's an alternative spine and engine room...

Spine: Stanley (22), Ferguson (20), McEvoy (23)/Hickey (22), Lee (22), White (18)
Engine: Armitage (24), Steven, ( 23), Ross (19), Newnes (20), Curren (20), Wright (19), Saunders (18), Ledger (21), Markworth (21), Siposs (20), Murdoch (19)

Ok, we'll pick up some young mids in the next couple of drafts and possibly look to acquire free agents and trades (KPD and quick outside mid) but realistically most of our next batch of players will come out of the above group. The majority of these guys are 21 or under (11/17), suggesting a period of 2016-2021 for our next peak window.

 

[Barrels]

I posted this over at SS, but between all the infighting, and watching of it, it seems to be being ignored...

It's in relation to the possibility of Jordan Staley being groomed as a FB.

Thoughts?

I know he's a rookie, I know he's not exactly set the world on fire yet and I KNOW he's been drafted and played as a forward/ruck...

BUT, and I'll admit I haven't seen any of him in the flesh...

As Stanley was tried as a forward ruck and is now showing some potential as a CHB, could Staley be an answer to our FB issues?

As other posters have pointed out we're at least 3-4 years away from being a contender, and thats only if things all go our way, by then Fisher will be gone, Dempster and Gwilt on their last legs if still around (you never know) and he could have had multiple years of blooding in the position. It seems that, assuming potential is realised, McEvoy, Hickey or Pierce have the inside running on the ruck spots for future considerations - and Staley's too small at league level anyway - and we can assume the same holds true for White, Lee and possibly Siposs in the forwardline KP roles.

In the Simpkin thread footynut had a 2017 or so backline as follows (which had some potential to it):

Geary 183cm 28y.o. / Ferguson 194cm 24y.o. / Simpkin 191cm 26y.o.
Roberton 194cm 25y.o. / Stanley 200cm 26y.o. / Webster 188cm 23y.o.

Again, other posters have pointed out that Simpkin, much as I love him, is too short to play on the big forwards in today's game, but can certainly hold the medium and slower small forwards. The issue I have with the above is that all reports seem to suggest that Ferg plays more like an oversized flanker, in a similar vein to Sam Gilbert.

Staley is a nine months YOUNGER than Ferg, but is the same height, heavier at 93kegs to 89 (as listed) and has played key positions throughout his junior days.

Why not;

Geary 183cm 28y.o. / Staley 194cm 24y.o. / Simpkin 191cm 26y.o.
Roberton 194cm 25y.o. / Stanley 200cm 26y.o. / Webster 188cm 23y.o.

with Ferg as the 'swingman'.

Or are we trusting to Lever's (who has said he prefers CHB) potential weight gain to shore us up?

http://truezebras.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/dsc_9901.jpg?w=1000&h=

For height reference, I believe that's Jordan in the #40

 

[Squizz]

There's no doubt he's being groomed, and that he's got enough height and aggression. But he's got a long way to go and has been really off the pace (even at VFL level) in previous games. The performance against Port was alot better though, and he got the ball on the ground well. He's been entrusted with kick-in duties a number of times, and he does kick it a fair way.

 

[Defacto]

Exactly. That is the big wildcard that makes it incredibly difficult to predict what will happen over the course of a few years for any club.

We didn't even get them through free agency, but look at what a difference getting Gehrig, Hamill and Lawrence in one trade week made to us about a decade ago.

completely different situation. back then our club did not have a successful or professional culture, so they were targetted to help create it.

we have those players now (rewioldt, hayes, milne, dempster)

 

[Defacto]

This is why I'd probably be aiming our next premiership tilt at 2015, when those you mentioned are two years younger (Fisher would be 35 by 2017, BTW, so would be 33 by 2015) and Roo could still be around and "only" 32.

If we don't lose anyone off our list that we really don't want to and do manage to add say a Dale Thomas and a Mitch Brown this year and maybe one or two more like that the year after, then I really believe we could be in a position to have another big crack by 2015. No doubt about it.

so were happy to lose goddard, but happy to gain thomas on inflated money and draft picks. *spew* thomas isnt even an A grade midfielder. he's a friggin utility like goddard. if you want him so badly, why did you just keep goddard???????

 

[Sunshine Saint]

I posted this over at SS, but between all the infighting, and watching of it, it seems to be being ignored...

It's in relation to the possibility of Jordan Staley being groomed as a FB.

Thoughts?

I know he's a rookie, I know he's not exactly set the world on fire yet and I KNOW he's been drafted and played as a forward/ruck...

BUT, and I'll admit I haven't seen any of him in the flesh...

As Stanley was tried as a forward ruck and is now showing some potential as a CHB, could Staley be an answer to our FB issues?

As other posters have pointed out we're at least 3-4 years away from being a contender, and thats only if things all go our way, by then Fisher will be gone, Dempster and Gwilt on their last legs if still around (you never know) and he could have had multiple years of blooding in the position. It seems that, assuming potential is realised, McEvoy, Hickey or Pierce have the inside running on the ruck spots for future considerations - and Staley's too small at league level anyway - and we can assume the same holds true for White, Lee and possibly Siposs in the forwardline KP roles.

In the Simpkin thread footynut had a 2017 or so backline as follows (which had some potential to it):

Geary 183cm 28y.o. / Ferguson 194cm 24y.o. / Simpkin 191cm 26y.o.
Roberton 194cm 25y.o. / Stanley 200cm 26y.o. / Webster 188cm 23y.o.

Again, other posters have pointed out that Simpkin, much as I love him, is too short to play on the big forwards in today's game, but can certainly hold the medium and slower small forwards. The issue I have with the above is that all reports seem to suggest that Ferg plays more like an oversized flanker, in a similar vein to Sam Gilbert.

Staley is a nine months YOUNGER than Ferg, but is the same height, heavier at 93kegs to 89 (as listed) and has played key positions throughout his junior days.

Why not;

Geary 183cm 28y.o. / Staley 194cm 24y.o. / Simpkin 191cm 26y.o.
Roberton 194cm 25y.o. / Stanley 200cm 26y.o. / Webster 188cm 23y.o.

with Ferg as the 'swingman'.

Or are we trusting to Lever's (who has said he prefers CHB) potential weight gain to shore us up?

http://truezebras.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/dsc_9901.jpg?w=1000&h=

For height reference, I believe that's Jordan in the #40

Welcome and well done with your first post here. Look forward to more.

 

[stkildathunda]

I posted this over at SS, but between all the infighting, and watching of it, it seems to be being ignored...

It's in relation to the possibility of Jordan Staley being groomed as a FB.

Thoughts?

I know he's a rookie, I know he's not exactly set the world on fire yet and I KNOW he's been drafted and played as a forward/ruck...

BUT, and I'll admit I haven't seen any of him in the flesh...

As Stanley was tried as a forward ruck and is now showing some potential as a CHB, could Staley be an answer to our FB issues?

As other posters have pointed out we're at least 3-4 years away from being a contender, and thats only if things all go our way, by then Fisher will be gone, Dempster and Gwilt on their last legs if still around (you never know) and he could have had multiple years of blooding in the position. It seems that, assuming potential is realised, McEvoy, Hickey or Pierce have the inside running on the ruck spots for future considerations - and Staley's too small at league level anyway - and we can assume the same holds true for White, Lee and possibly Siposs in the forwardline KP roles.

In the Simpkin thread footynut had a 2017 or so backline as follows (which had some potential to it):

Geary 183cm 28y.o. / Ferguson 194cm 24y.o. / Simpkin 191cm 26y.o.
Roberton 194cm 25y.o. / Stanley 200cm 26y.o. / Webster 188cm 23y.o.

Again, other posters have pointed out that Simpkin, much as I love him, is too short to play on the big forwards in today's game, but can certainly hold the medium and slower small forwards. The issue I have with the above is that all reports seem to suggest that Ferg plays more like an oversized flanker, in a similar vein to Sam Gilbert.

Staley is a nine months YOUNGER than Ferg, but is the same height, heavier at 93kegs to 89 (as listed) and has played key positions throughout his junior days.

Why not;

Geary 183cm 28y.o. / Staley 194cm 24y.o. / Simpkin 191cm 26y.o.
Roberton 194cm 25y.o. / Stanley 200cm 26y.o. / Webster 188cm 23y.o.

with Ferg as the 'swingman'.

Or are we trusting to Lever's (who has said he prefers CHB) potential weight gain to shore us up?

http://truezebras.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/dsc_9901.jpg?w=1000&h=

For height reference, I believe that's Jordan in the #40

Yep thats Staley. Has played majority of year down back (occasionaly gets swung forward) and has been going alright. Was probably his best game last week but really needs to build on that today. Still not sure if he'll make it, but IMO he's ahead of Jay Lever in his development.

 

[Defacto]

just looking at the list and i think we'll have a fair bit of movement on it at the end of the year if we want to bring in a KPD, A grade MID and then the usual 3-4 kids.

we might end up seeing 1 of the kids relegated to the rookie list and a fair few retirements

 

[sammm]

just looking at the list and i think we'll have a fair bit of movement on it at the end of the year if we want to bring in a KPD, A grade MID and then the usual 3-4 kids.

we might end up seeing 1 of the kids relegated to the rookie list and a fair few retirements

you would expect that at a minimum blake & kosi will retire. milne a big possibility unless he improves. lenny, after this weeks game against the swans i am not so sure. he played a great game.

 

[Defacto]

you would expect that at a minimum blake & kosi will retire. milne a big possibility unless he improves. lenny, after this weeks game against the swans i am not so sure. he played a great game.

i agree. for me:
blake = retire
kozi = retire
milne = 50/50
hayes = 50/50
schneider = body looks to be failing. looks gone

then you can add in 1 or 2 possible trades plus 1 or 2 kids who might be let go from the senior list. rookie list probably going to change a fair bit with elevations and delistings

 

[Barrels]

Lets fast forward four years... Hoping for improvement, the 2017 team (not of course allowing for draft picks/trades/etc) might look a little like:

FB: Wright // Staley // Simpkin
HB: Geary // Stanley // Roberton
CR: Webster // Ross // Newnes
RK: McEvoy // Armitage // Steven
HF: Markworth // Lee // Siposs
FF: Saad // White // Hickey
Int (from):
Minchington (Milne)
Ferguson (Gilbert)
Saunders (Montagna)
Dunell (Fisher)
Murdoch (Gwilt)
Lever (Blake)
Ledger (Hayes)
Curren (Jones)
Dennis-Lane (Schnieder)
Shenton (Dempster)
Milera
Pierce

The bench is not in any particular order, and (obviously, I think) the names in brackets are the players who are no longer playing - 1987 births was my arbitrary cut-off - whom I see them replacing. Its not an exact science of course, and Pierce and Milera aren't really replacing anyone gone, they're just representing themselves.

Whilst that team is hardly going to set the world on fire, and certainly exposes our need for a real quality KPD, the last few weeks have made it a far less depressing sight, and the really encouraging thing is that there are a fair number of blokes in that team that we are getting games into and who seem to be up to the level.

Onward and upward Saints...

 

[Stan_Darsh72]

IF we can get a some good key defenders then we can shove Stanley up forward and Stanly, Saad, Lee, White, Siposs suddenly look like a very mobile and premiership winning forward line

 

[Barrels]

Can't start my own threads yet... Resorted to returning to SS and posted this:

Any chance of getting him if we don't finish dead last? Would the super-tank be worth it?

HUGH Goddard....

From 2012/2013 AIS intake information:

HUGH GODDARD
194cm 89kg Victoria Country/Geelong Falcons/Geelong Amateurs

Tall forward/defender that has an overwhelming presence on the ground in the way he plays. A powerful hard working player with excellent hands either in a contested situation or on the lead. Shows fantastic courage going back with the flight or standing under the ball. Shows a real appetite for the contest. Cousin of St Kilda’s Brendon Goddard.

From Geelong Addy:

Goddard played his junior football with Geelong Amateurs, and last year represented Victoria's under-15 schoolboys side where he was named an All-Australian.

Falcons regional manager Michael Turner said Goddard would be the first under-16 to play with their side since Colac's Luke Hodge another No.1 AFL draft pick played in their last premiership year in 2000.

The 194cm Goddard is not eligible to be drafted until 2014 but already has attracted plenty of interest from AFL recruiters.

Goddard was named Vic Country's Most Valuable Player at this year's under-16 national carnival in Sydney.

"He's got a great attitude, he's very switched on, he can win the ball in the air and on the ground," Turner said.

"He's a terrific left foot kick, he can already kick the ball 50-60cm, he's very good at decision-making and got all the athleticism attributes that AFL clubs are looking for."

Under 18 watchers: Is he worth taking with our first pick in 2014? Been a lot of chat about him lately, all positive. Huge raps on him. Would it be so if he had a different last name?

Listed at 195cm and 92kgs now via the Geelong Falcons. Great size, particularly as he's not of draft able age yet...

 

[God Save Max King]

Hugh's probably worth the 1st round pick for 2014 but we'll need a super high pick IMO. He's kicked a few goals in the TAC Cup and he's played well in a couple of the games but I think the Saints have a good amount of forwards already and Goddard (Hugh) might not be required.

 

[Barrels]

Hugh's probably worth the 1st round pick for 2014 but we'll need a super high pick IMO. He's kicked a few goals in the TAC Cup and he's played well in a couple of the games but I think the Saints have a good amount of forwards already and Goddard (Hugh) might not be required.

Maybe not, Roos going to have to retire sometime and we're up the proverbial creek on that score if either of White or Lee don't make it.

Also, you'll note he's listed as forward/backman. I see no reason why he could 't be a stellar CHB with those raps.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Hugh has been spoken about by some as the likely no.1 selection in that draft for quite a while, so unless something changes in the meantime, we would probably have to finish last next year to get our hands on him. Would probably be a huge get, like Boyd this year and is probably someone you wouldn't overlook if he was available at your pick, if it was done today.

 

[Barrels]

So, looks the goods, but unlikely seems to be the consensus...

I'd ideally like to see us come away from the draft with Jack Billings (the comparison of "NDS, but harder" is tasty), a gun young tall defender, then simply best mids available whilst giving a shot to Justin Hardy (26 next year, 196cm 97kgs, former key back turned SANFL top goal-kicker, despite also being played as a pinch-hitting ruckman).

 

[Barrels]

Another kid that appeals on my reading thus far, probably with a later pick, is Mark Orr, from Spencer's White old stomping ground the Western Jets.

Read an article in the Melton Star, and one comment in particular stood out...

http://melton.starcommunity.com.au/star/2013-04-16/making-his-mark/

“It is very different to the ruck,” Orr said.
“The way I play ruck is very defensive. I sit a kick back behind play and try to pick off where the other team is going, but when you’re the forward you’re the go-to man.
“It’s tough. For me it’s tough trying to find the right time to lead and whether your player’s ready to kick the ball to you.

Is it just me or does that suggest that he's not a forward's bootlace? He's not big enough to ruck at league level, but if he's more comfortable playing on the defensive side of things and reading the incoming ball, albeit as a ruckman presently, what's to stop him being groomed as a CHB or FB?

At 195cm and 97kgs he's certainly got the size for it...

 

[aussierulesrules]

I'd ideally like to see us come away from the draft with Jack Billings (the comparison of "NDS, but harder" is tasty), a gun young tall defender, then simply best mids available whilst giving a shot to Justin Hardy (26 next year, 196cm 97kgs, former key back turned SANFL top goal-kicker, despite also being played as a pinch-hitting ruckman).

That would be handy and I don't think we'd say no if there was one available that we really rated at one of our non top-10 picks, but what also needs to be taken into account is that we are looking to add as many as 4-5 from NZ to our list by the end of the year and that Pelchan suggested that they are more likely to be your potential "KPP's", because they don't have to be able to kick the footy as much, or necessarily as well as someone shorter, so it sounds like they will most likely be suited to playing a position like CHB, where they can use their height, strength and athleticism to advantage, while mostly following someone around. So we may think we can cover that base long term that way, as well as with hopefully someone like M Brown, plus Ferguson and Staley, depending on how they progress.