Our captains need to step up

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Gethelred

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To be fair, Cripps has shown himself to be a much better player than Cotchin, and previously a good leader too. But he has gone away from what made him great, and what helped the team the most. He should go back to it.
I agree, but that is not what the chorus on that show said.

Look, here's the thing: I do not disagree with the idea that Cripps should try to become a better captain, to start playing with the goal of bringing his teammates into the game. What I object to is the idea that Cripps plays like Cotchin, at all. They're different players. Cotchin is closer to Walsh than he is to Cripps. Cripps is closer to Priddis or JPK than he is to Cotchin.

It's a false equivalence.
 

Stamos

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I agree, but that is not what the chorus on that show said.

Look, here's the thing: I do not disagree with the idea that Cripps should try to become a better captain, to start playing with the goal of bringing his teammates into the game. What I object to is the idea that Cripps plays like Cotchin, at all. They're different players. Cotchin is closer to Walsh than he is to Cripps. Cripps is closer to Priddis or JPK than he is to Cotchin.

It's a false equivalence.
From the quote, it seemed they meant to copy his team first, forget the stats and highlights leadership role, rather than his specific style of play. As in go back to what made him a fun, stop trying to be Dusty
 

Gethelred

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From the quote, it seemed they meant to copy his team first, forget the stats and highlights leadership role, rather than his specific style of play. As in go back to what made him a fun, stop trying to be Dusty
From the clip, they oversimplified what made Cotchin change to the point where it may as well have been as simple as my nonsensical post above.

Just change into Trent. Simple.

Look, I've been getting a bit shitty recently at the way football is reported and discussed, the culture around it. It is bread and circuses of the highest order; it's exposing the pantomime below the surface that was always there. It's getting to the point in which it's ruining the sport for me. I get that that might not be the case for others, but we really need to have better standards for game and play analysis than 'just get on the phone, have a conversation, and be like Trent'.
 

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BigBreakfast

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T Cotchin is the best Captain in the AFL by an absolute mile. He literally couldn’t give a sh*t about his stats. I doubt he even ever knows them. He doesn’t care about champion data. He doesn’t care about All Australian selections or Brownlow votes.

All he cares about is winning.
Didn’t always do this as captain though. Learnt over time and as talent level grew and game plan solidified. Our boys need to learn this to become true leaders.
 

BlueJet

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When you’ve got the likes of Prestia, Lambert, Bolton and that other pretty good player who escapes my mind playing next to you it’s far easier to sacrifice your game.

Cripps is our main man and after doing literally everything for the best part of 4 years it’s going to be difficult for him to take a step back. He’ll learn and adapt I have no doubt.

Who’s stepping up is the real question?
In theory, sure.
GWS is the counterpoint, where the perception remains that they've underachieved in part because of an unwillingness to sacrifice their own game for team success.

My comment was based on Cotchin who I really admire for doing the dirty work which frees up the Martin's, Edwards' etc. rather than being critical of our guys.
Ultimately though, whether you're the first or last picked, selfish football is a weaklink in any club.
 

Cripps 'n' Blue Bloods

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I can't see Teague getting stuck into his leaders.
He should, but the leaders get the courtesy of copping it behind closed doors IMO.
If they fail to respond, then they get called out in front of the group.
Cripps is just trying to do too much. Maybe the weight of the captaincy is starting to get to him now that there are bigger expectations on the team.
He has to understand the difference between trying to do everything himself and trying to drag the team up with him. It's a fine line.
 
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When you’ve got the likes of Prestia, Lambert, Bolton and that other pretty good player who escapes my mind playing next to you it’s far easier to sacrifice your game.

Cripps is our main man and after doing literally everything for the best part of 4 years it’s going to be difficult for him to take a step back. He’ll learn and adapt I have no doubt.

Who’s stepping up is the real question?
When you see Cripps ignore faster runners trying to link up with him and go it alone, it's a sliding door moment.

What if he used them and they ran inside 50 under less pressure and booted the team lifting goal? It lifts the team AND lifts their confidence.

Our players look for Cripps constantly, to our detriment.

Cripps does not have to be the one to lift us. It hampers the games of others and it allows us to make excuses for Cripps having to carry the team.

He doesn't have to carry the team ... he wants to and he needs to reel that in.
 

Juddafideslenko

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I don't know, but i have a strange feeling maybe Crippa doesn't particularly like sharing the Captaincy as much as he thought he would or could.
He seemed to thrive when he was sole captain, but has been off since Doc came back.
Obviously it would be a united front from outside looking in, but who knows what the dynamics are like in a team of individual personalities and egos?



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I don't know, but i have a strange feeling maybe Crippa doesn't particularly like sharing the Captaincy as much as he thought he would or could.
He seemed to thrive when he was sole captain, but has been off since Doc came back.
Obviously it would be a united front from outside looking in, but who knows what the dynamics are like in a team of individual personalities and egos?
It would seem a most un-captain like attitude to have if something like that was affecting his mindset.
 

Kreuuuzeurns

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When you see Cripps ignore faster runners trying to link up with him and go it alone, it's a sliding door moment.

What if he used them and they ran inside 50 under less pressure and booted the team lifting goal? It lifts the team AND lifts their confidence.

Our players look for Cripps constantly, to our detriment.

Cripps does not have to be the one to lift us. It hampers the games of others and it allows us to make excuses for Cripps having to carry the team.

He doesn't have to carry the team ... he wants to and he needs to reel that in.
It’s a bit of both. For years Cotchin (who we are comparing him too) had the same mentality and he regressed year after year from 2012 onwards.

Others stood up, Cotchin had a bit more confidence in his teammates and he is now the wonderful player he is. I don’t think Cripps has the same confidence in his teammates yet. Everyone needs to grow.
 

Juddafideslenko

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True, but maybe he relished being the sole leader?
Maybe Doc feels like he's treading toes?

Pure speculation and im not trying to find mud as im a huge fan of both of those blokes, but as you know all is not is exactly as it seems, especially at Carlton.

I myself would prefer Crippa as sole captain and Doc the general of the backline as he needs to be, without the peripherals that could be somewhat consuming.

It would seem a most un-captain like attitude to have if something like that was affecting his mindset.
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True, but maybe he relished being the sole leader?
Maybe Doc feels like he's treading toes?

Pure speculation and im not trying to find mud as im a huge fan of both of those blokes, but as you know all is not is exactly as it seems, especially at Carlton.

I myself would prefer Crippa as sole captain and Doc the general of the backline as he needs to be, without the peripherals that could be somewhat consuming.



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If Cripps is the one with an issue with being co-captain, then he's the one who needs to have it taken off him. Doc is by far the better communicator and football brain anyway.
 

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Im not so sure either of us could make that call with all due respect, as we really don't know jack do we mate?

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Well, my belief is based on hearing them talk and the fact that Docherty is the one who wants to coach and spent a year in the box. I am responding to your belief about Cripps which is plain speculation. I'm comfortable.
 

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If i were on Carlton's list and i had a choice one or the other, i would choose Cripps.
No disrespect to Doc, but i see Crippa as a general who 'will' carry the team on his back and bust his arse doing so.
I see Doc as a really good chb, but at a loss of a better term, a 'nice guy'. Crippa has a bit of ar*****e about him and footballers love that s***.

No one could forsee Doc's injuries, but that gave Patty a couple of seasons steering the ship and thriving on it.
It is no slight on him, that he may have wanted the responsibility himself, even if open to the co-captaincy initially.
Two visions can get blurry.

Anyway, what would we know really.
We only truly see whats on the tv!
If Cripps is the one with an issue with being co-captain, then he's the one who needs to have it taken off him. Doc is by far the better communicator and football brain anyway.
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If i were on Carlton's list and i had a choice one or the other, i would choose Cripps.
No disrespect to Doc, but i see Crippa as a general who 'will' carry the team on his back and bust his arse doing so.
I see Doc as a really good chb, but at a loss of a better term, a 'nice guy'. Crippa has a bit of ar*****e about him and footballers love that s***.

No one could forsee Doc's injuries, but that gave Patty a couple of seasons steering the ship and thriving on it.
It is no slight on him, that he may have wanted the responsibility himself, even if open to the co-captaincy initially.
Two visions can get blurry.
It was one season that Cripps was on field captain by himself.

Our longest serving captain, a dual premiership captain, was Stephen Kernahan. He was a pretty nice guy and no a-hole on the field. Doc will wrestle and stick up for teammates when it's time to. I'm not sure this is a disqualifying point for him.

Having said that, they're only warming the seat for Weitering or Walsh at this point. Walsh will be the real leader soon. It's just his pedigree.
 

Juddafideslenko

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Maybe Doc is a better public speaker but thats irrelevant really.
Its how the player group respond.
We've all had team mates that we like and are more mature and well spoken but we have also had that battering ram, hard bastard that may not be that well educated, but s*** he cracks in.

Again, no slight on Doc or his courage etc, i would just prefer to play under Crippa on what i see on the ground and in his personality.

I came to my conclusion pretty much the same as you did, but who knows whether in reality, things are as swimmingly as they seem to be?
I hope they are, as they'll both be in good form again soon, and we wont even give it a thought...pretty sure!
Well, my belief is based on hearing them talk and the fact that Docherty is the one who wants to coach and spent a year in the box. I am responding to your belief about Cripps which is plain speculation. I'm comfortable.
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Juddafideslenko

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Ok sorry, only one season. Still, he thrived in that role.
Sticks was a fair player but as hard as a cat's head.
Notice no 'tough guys' tried it on with big Steve? Because he was a player that would run through you in an instant and he demanded respect.
Sticks was and is a bloody great bloke but a powerful personality too!

As i said, i offered no slight on Doc's personality, courage or willing to 'fly the flag'.
It doesn't necessarily mean 'captain' material though nor does it not.

I just think in general footballers and sportspeople of all types react better to stronger personalities and successful clubs and organisations of all types are led by these same personalities.

When there are two different leaders, sometimes the message can be diluted or blurred somewhat
It was one season that Cripps was on field captain by himself.

Our longest serving captain, a dual premiership captain, was Stephen Kernahan. He was a pretty nice guy and no a-hole on the field. Doc will wrestle and stick up for teammates when it's time to. I'm not sure this is a disqualifying point for him.

Having said that, they're only warming the seat for Weitering or Walsh at this point. Walsh will be the real leader soon. It's just his pedigree.
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I just think in general footballers and sportspeople of all types react better to stronger personalities and successful clubs and organisations of all types are led by these same personalities.

When there are two different leaders, sometimes the message can be diluted or blurred somewhat
Pendlebury seems to have gone alright as a captain. A quieter bloke on field, you will hardly find.

I don't want to pigeon hole leaders into one type. A lot of players are motivated by different things. I guess that's why we have leadership groups instead of just one leader.
 

Juddafideslenko

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Yeah but its that basketball background yknow!?!?


Pendles has had a great personal career and seems very quiet yes.
Going by expert predictions over the course of his captaincy though, his team have totally underachieved and have had quite a few off field problems.
Maybe he's a good 'face of the club' after the what was it? The rat pack days?
As an exceptionally gifted footballer he was a great choice at the time and has been a consistent high performer ever since so will be skipper til he hangs em up.

Id take a Selwood, Hodge or Mitchell, or a Voss over Pendlebury though.

Again, there is your opinion and mine, but personally i would prefer to play under Pat Cripps than Sam Docherty given the choice 'one or the other'.
I have no insight other than the tv, and have never met and got to know either, so could be way off the mark, but thats just my take.
Pendlebury seems to have gone alright as a captain. A quieter bloke on field, you will hardly find.

I don't want to pigeon hole leaders into one type. A lot of players are motivated by different things. I guess that's why we have leadership groups instead of just one leader.
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