Our Starts

[hbk_aus]

I didn't say we were in the middle of a heavy training block like the mid/late training regime a lot of clubs go through. But it certainly looks like the other teams have freshened up for us and we are doing it harder on the training track. Especially in the first half we look a little lethargic by comparison.

No. I'll give you an example: When we got done by WCE in 2011 mid season at Pattersons. That was in the middle of a heavy training block so they said. And after a sluggish start we nearly ran over the top of them. Did it all through that period.

Whatever training we are doing now at the start of the season, it looks like we go into games less fresh than our opponents. Yes?

I don't think freshness has anything to do with it personally. I cant see how you can be less fresh at the start then all of a sudden be fresher. The comebacks, including the one you mentioned, have more to do with pride, never-say-die attitude, leadership and terrific fitness.

I think slow starts are a combination of mindset and tactics myself. Each to their own though.

 

[vinum coupe]

Compared to the teams we are playing, of course we are. It shows in the way we are playing.

No need to be abusive. Doesn't help.

Rubbish

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Rubbish

So you think we are started fresher than the other two teams so far?

 

[vinum coupe]

Whatever training we are doing now at the start of the season, it looks like we go into games less fresh than our opponents. Yes?

Computer says "no"

 

[vinum coupe]

So you think we are started fresher than the other two teams so far?

Yep!
Looked flat on Sunday. In endeavour

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Computer says "no"

I beg to differ with the computer. I think we look a lot more focused and physical in the second half of each game so far.

Scoreboard says no to computer.

But if you are right, then we are in trouble and the wheels will start to fall off a bit.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Yep!
Looked flat on Sunday. In endeavour

We are in trouble, then.

 

[vinum coupe]

Glass 1/2 empty today mate?

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Well, are we in trouble?

 

[vinum coupe]

Well, are we in trouble?

Nope.
2-0 last time I looked.

 

[Thundercracker]

While the starts are troubling, they are no where near as bad as some of the starts we had last season. I can see us improving from it, since that and our ruck is the current bugbears with the team.

Remember we are only two weeks into at least another 20 weeks (if not more if the finals campaign goes well) of football with the team. Do some of you want Geelong to go as hard as what Essendon usually does, and our players burn out or have soft tissue injuries for the second half of the season?

 

[Skeppersap]

Yep, a definite issue. I don't think it's with the personnel though. We simply went in with a gameplan to play North one way (offer them the little 20m sideways passes and suffocate the inevitable long bombs into the forward line) and they just played completely differently to what they dished up last week. They were just picking apart the zone 30m at a time. You know when you do one of those drills at footy training where the whole team will be doing some variation of circle work and they'll get 4-5 guys to put a vest on and roam around, providing 'token' pressure. That's what we were offering in the first half: token pressure.

All the guys that Partridge mentioned stepped it up massively in the second half, but the conditions made it a totally different game (Brad Scott may not have been happy with that AFL official, but I could have kissed him). Somehow, we get out of jail again and we're undefeated. But I hope the team isn't kidding itself that it's playing like some sort of juggernaut right now. It hurts to say, but they play like a team that's not quite as good as it seems to think it is.

We had already regained the lead by the time the rain started. Dont see what conditions had to do with it.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Nope.
2-0 last time I looked.

We will be 10-1(2?) and David King will be saying how we should be 5-5. As Smedts kicks his third to put us 45 points up in the GF, Roos will be heard to say that the fixture really helped Geelong this year. Time Lane will leave half way through the last quarter never to be seen again.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

We had already regained the lead by the time the rain started. Dont see what conditions had to do with it.

Just watched the replay before. Killed them when it was still dry. 6 straight goals early in thew third. The conditions were important. The rain nearly saved NM. We would have won by 4 goals on a dry day. And I'm not being facetious.

 

[Skeppersap]

Just watched the replay before. Killed them when it was still dry. 6 straight goals early in thew third. The conditions were important. The rain nearly saved NM. We would have won by 4 goals on a dry day. And I'm not being facetious.

Agreed, I watched the replay last night, the conditions definitely helped NM get back in the game!

 

[Partridge]

Caddy and Corey seem obvious inside midfielders, I can understand why some of our fans get a little frustrated when we play Corey out of position.

Bizarre with Selwood starting out of the centre square so often ?

It must be tactical. Not from the point of the individual game, but the workload of the players throughout the season - especially the older guys. It could very much be why he wants Corey in the backline early - it's not as gruelling as being in the centre square all game, and if he gets put there after half time he's relatively fresh (as we saw Sunday). Selwood he realises is our best midfielder and the only one at peak age. Rather than have him 100% of the time in the centre he's getting moved around as well. Sure looks like it.

It can be maddening for us - it was for me on Sunday - but they know far more than we do. Scott might realise Corey can't play 20 games in one season anymore, but if he can contribute for the first 10 and set up our season, Horlin-Smith and Caddy can pick up the slack for the middle part (against weaker teams too going by the draw), and then everyone is just that little bit fresher for the business end. If we're good enough to be there.

They've just got to start better. If the player management is part of the equation, and these days it almost certainly is, that's astute on their behalf. Tricky part is we still need to have the right guys there to win games.

See what changes come this week.

 

[Partridge]

We will be 10-1(2?) and David King will be saying how we should be 5-5. As Smedts kicks his third to put us 45 points up in the GF, Roos will be heard to say that the fixture really helped Geelong this year. Time Lane will leave half way through the last quarter never to be seen again.

Don't know why the opinion of those guys matters to us really.

Forget 10-1; if we play well on Saturday night we're a chance to go 3-0. That'll do me for now.

 

[Partridge]

Over reaction much?
All I gathered from the threat is a bunch of Cat fans discussing how we can improve our early game.
No need to be sarcastic (lowest form of wit and all).

Same here. Nothing wrong with that. There are always going to be differing opinions. They're all as valid as each other.

 

[FredLeDeux]

Same here. Nothing wrong with that. There are always going to be differing opinions. They're all as valid as each other.

All opinions are not equally valid, either in this or any other context.
To paraphrase the late, great Douglas Adams, all opinions are not equally valid, because some are more robust, sophisticated and well supported by facts and in logic and argument than others.
Which is not to say that people are not entitled to their own opinions of course.
Though Harlan Ellison did say "You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant." But that's just his opinion.

 

[RegHickeyStand]

Don't know why the opinion of those guys matters to us really.

Forget 10-1; if we play well on Saturday night we're a chance to go 3-0. That'll do me for now.

I don't like tools belittling my club.

They don't matter. But if you want to access the media, you can't miss them, and they are aggravating.

 

[Partridge]

I don't like tools belittling my club.

They don't matter. But if you want to access the media, you can't miss them, and they are aggravating.

Yeah fair point. Don't worry my wife has to restrain me from throwing objects when I hear Brian Taylor or Dwayne Russell's voice now. The urge to maim them is now an instinct.

 

[Senatorguesty]

All opinions are not equally valid, either in this or any other context.
To paraphrase the late, great Douglas Adams, all opinions are not equally valid, because some are more robust, sophisticated and well supported by facts and in logic and argument than others.
Which is not to say that people are not entitled to their own opinions of course.
Though Harlan Ellison did say "You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant." But that's just his opinion.

I agree.
Unless you're saying my opinion isnt valid, then you can go and get stuffed!

 

[maxy87]

I wasn't sure whether to discuss the starts issue in the autopsy thread from Sunday or in here but I'll add my take on things:

It's hard to gauge at this point the exact issue regarding our starts as I don't think we started particularly poorly against Hawthorn - we had a number of opportunities to score in the first half but fluffed them and to me just seemed that our system wasn't quite gelling while Hawthorn were far more decisive early on and took their chances early. The discrepancy in clearance numbers was quite telling though, which leads into Sundays game and may begin to paint a better picture.

We were jumped in the first half on Sunday mainly because we couldn't get first use, didn't apply enough pressure and basically Swallow et. al. were able to move the ball relatively easily from stoppages and then spread quickly, exposing out defenders who looked a bit rattled early on. We were able to get a couple back mainly due to our defence being very well drilled and able to read the play, which facilitated a few counter attacks. I thought we actually spread and moved the ball quite well on the counter attack early when given the opportunity.

So what of the clearances early? A portion of this is logically attributable IMO to having inferior rucks at the moment - especially against someone of Goldsteins calibre. The second part to me seems personnel based rather than a mental issue. As Partridge says, we have a few blokes that are perhaps not up to a full game of intense bash and crash ala Joel Corey (and to a lesser extent Kelly) and thus are being used in different positions/roles to manage their work load and to extract the most out of them, particularly when the game slows down. I agree with this notion. When Corey and Kelly joined forces in the guts the immediate impact was telling. There was much more physical pressure around the ball and smarter play in order to clear the ball from stoppage. Once this was addressed, the runners were brought into the game. Stokes' inclusion also played a part.

So why such bad clearance numbers when the others are in the guts with Selwood? I think that we need to be realistic about our other midfielders' capabilities at this stage. Promising as the younger guys are, they still have a way to go before they emulate the service that Corey and Kelly have provided over the years (though I thought Bundy was immense on Sunday). It also doesn't help when we don't get ruck ascendancy. These things will come together in time. Hopefully the return of Stevie Johnson to the midfield will help in the clearances area, too.

At this stage I don't think theres anything fitness/training based but others may have seen more than me and may like to shed more light on this

 

[footscore]

So why such bad clearance numbers when the others are in the guts with Selwood? I think that we need to be realistic about our other midfielders' capabilities at this stage

Our rucks aren't a good enough combo and it's obviously hurting us as we are dead set last for hit-outs and stoppages.
Can't blame West either as his 2012 stats suggest he was fine, not terrific but was certainly a pass imo.
Blicavs will get beaten every time though, he just hasn't had enough experience and his timing is still a work in progress.

Desperately need one of those two giants to get up, Simpson or McIntosh would compliment West perfectly and until we see this type of combo, as it was in the 2011 season (Ottens/West), don't think our mids can predict where those taps will go and it's not helping our cause with one ruck only starting to find form due to injury.

 

[Jimmy Yamazaki]

I wasn't sure whether to discuss the starts issue in the autopsy thread from Sunday or in here but I'll add my take on things:

It's hard to gauge at this point the exact issue regarding our starts as I don't think we started particularly poorly against Hawthorn - we had a number of opportunities to score in the first half but fluffed them and to me just seemed that our system wasn't quite gelling while Hawthorn were far more decisive early on and took their chances early. The discrepancy in clearance numbers was quite telling though, which leads into Sundays game and may begin to paint a better picture.

We were jumped in the first half on Sunday mainly because we couldn't get first use, didn't apply enough pressure and basically Swallow et. al. were able to move the ball relatively easily from stoppages and then spread quickly, exposing out defenders who looked a bit rattled early on. We were able to get a couple back mainly due to our defence being very well drilled and able to read the play, which facilitated a few counter attacks. I thought we actually spread and moved the ball quite well on the counter attack early when given the opportunity.

So what of the clearances early? A portion of this is logically attributable IMO to having inferior rucks at the moment - especially against someone of Goldsteins calibre. The second part to me seems personnel based rather than a mental issue. As Partridge says, we have a few blokes that are perhaps not up to a full game of intense bash and crash ala Joel Corey (and to a lesser extent Kelly) and thus are being used in different positions/roles to manage their work load and to extract the most out of them, particularly when the game slows down. I agree with this notion. When Corey and Kelly joined forces in the guts the immediate impact was telling. There was much more physical pressure around the ball and smarter play in order to clear the ball from stoppage. Once this was addressed, the runners were brought into the game. Stokes' inclusion also played a part.

So why such bad clearance numbers when the others are in the guts with Selwood? I think that we need to be realistic about our other midfielders' capabilities at this stage. Promising as the younger guys are, they still have a way to go before they emulate the service that Corey and Kelly have provided over the years (though I thought Bundy was immense on Sunday). It also doesn't help when we don't get ruck ascendancy. These things will come together in time. Hopefully the return of Stevie Johnson to the midfield will help in the clearances area, too.

At this stage I don't think theres anything fitness/training based but others may have seen more than me and may like to shed more light on this

Good post. Can't wait to see what Hmac can provide should he get back to fitness and health. Will help structurally too. As solid as West is, I think he would be much better off not having to be accountable for the opposition no.1 rucks. And he can float around more then before (ala 2011) Going forward to provide a 3rd tall and back to stop gap. Aslo just coz Hmac is a better ruckman in an Ottens type of mold that should help clearances.

On the Veterans, they may also be given the kids ago to learn the trade. I mean think about it, Corey, Kelly, SJ and Bartel will be gone over the next few years then we would have a midfield that would consist of Selwood and some kids, not ideal, so if the Kids get a run early in games and the Seniors get the fresh legs after half time it could be the reason, so when the Veterans retire, then the kids can take over and have a seemless change so we don't bottom out. (remember 2015 plan)

Possibly clutching at straws but thought I would post it anyway.