Owners

[moomba]

I think the connection to the Super League is the notion of uncompetitiveness, which was my point when this first broke regarding the difficulty for sides coming up to actually compete in the PL, and needing to push themselves in a more unsustainable manner. If you end up with 9-10 teams with ridiculous wealth in the PL it may as well be a closed shop.

Not much difference to the Premier league over the past 30 years.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

I think the connection to the Super League is the notion of uncompetitiveness, which was my point when this first broke regarding the difficulty for sides coming up to actually compete in the PL, and needing to push themselves in a more unsustainable manner. If you end up with 9-10 teams with ridiculous wealth in the PL it may as well be a closed shop.

It already is a closed shop. Closed off to 4 teams and the only way to join them is get dirty money and a blank cheque.

 

[SM]

Not much difference to the Premier league over the past 30 years.

A little bit of a difference surely? State-owned clubs are a relatively new thing.

 

[SM]

It already is a closed shop. Closed off to 4 teams and the only way to join them is get dirty money and a blank cheque.

The Southampton, Wolves, Sheff United, Leeds etc. finishes of promotion then a top half finish would be a thing of the past. I get your point, but surely there's some awareness that having clubs with 10bn+ net wealth owners owning half the league is far more anti-competitive than anything we've seen in the past. There was a golden period where the TV money was such that promoted clubs could genuinely compete with all bar the top 4-5 sides and that was a pretty good period, particularly while United, Liverpool, etc. went through wobbles that meant even those top 4-5 were vulnerable.

 

[Elmer_Judd]

At least some of my comrades have a conscience.
Sickening watching fans of these clubs celebrate the team that most (not all) glory hunted to follow. They can fu** off, and so can their clubs.

Well that's hardly a surprise with Spurs having a sizeable Jewisjh fan base and Israel and Saudi Arabia hardly been bosom buddies.

There has always been a sizable wealth gap between the haves and have nots of European Football Leagues, I am just eternally grateful the likes of Chelsea and Man City have forever stopped Man Ute's monopoly on the English Game, sometimes good can result from evil or at least disrepute and or controversial regimes.

Part of me is now coming around to finding a cashed up super club that will make it harder for Man Utd to win the league and trophies rather appealing.

My German Club Bayer Leverkusen is controversial for its original owners apparently making gas for Nazi Gas Chambers 80 years or so ago (only found out about that a couple of years ago) but I am not change my support cause of some unsavoury things that happened years before I was born.

 

[Zidane98]

Not much difference to the Premier league over the past 30 years.

The premier league was never about spending pretty much unlimited amounts of money backed by. owners linked to governments. It benefitted all clubs in the top flight through commercial revenue as at the time England was miles behind the likes of Serie A in that department.

Newcastle are effectively making their own super league, success is inevitable if you can spend vast amounts of money, rack up huge losses and have the wealth of a state backing you via your ownership. Like Klopp said they will continually throw money at the best of everything until they eventually succeeed.

To me that isnt competitive at all and whatever you say about the PL it never aimed to be that.

And personally I dont want the PL to be a league in 10 years time that has the Sultan of Brunei, Ayatollah Khamenei and Kim Jong Un etc all owning clubs because thats the path the PL is currently heading down by allowing the Saudis in even if they are just "owners investing their own money".

 

[SM]

Of all the top leagues the PL was clearly the most aimed at making for a competitive league with the distribution of TV funds. A handful of clubs having mega-rich owners (often/usually individuals) is vastly different to what the league is beginning to morph into.

 

[moomba]

It's not as if Newcastle is competitive at the moment. Struggling to see how the league becomes less competitive.

 

[moomba]

The premier league was never about spending pretty much unlimited amounts of money backed by. owners linked to governments. It benefitted all clubs in the top flight through commercial revenue as at the time England was miles behind the likes of Serie A in that department.

Financially the league has been great for clubs, especially those at the top when it was created. But it did create an environment where it was next to impossible to break into that elite (and gain access to things like Champions league revenue) without overstretching yourself, or having a bit cash influx.

Newcastle are effectively making their own super league, success is inevitable if you can spend vast amounts of money, rack up huge losses and have the wealth of a state backing you via your ownership. Like Klopp said they will continually throw money at the best of everything until they eventually succeeed.

They'll probably join the clubs already at the top. Three legitimate titles chances this year, United bound to come and Newcastle on the rise would make the league as competitive (at the top) as I can remember.

 

[SM]

It's not as if Newcastle is competitive at the moment. Struggling to see how the league becomes less competitive.

I think you're wilfully misinterpreting my point to argue something I'm not saying. I think there's a word for that..

Newcastle becoming a mega-side is not about the binary 'Are Newcastle competitive or not' question, it's regarding any side coming into the league, other sides currently around them in the league, who now have one less side that they have a chance to beat.

And for what it's worth, I suspect WBA, Sheff U and Fulham would contend with the idea that Newcastle aren't currently competitive.

 

[moomba]

I think you're wilfully misinterpreting my point to argue something I'm not saying. I think there's a word for that..

PMSL, you're becoming more and more like Zidane every day.

 

[SM]

PMSL, you're becoming more and more like Zidane every day.

There it is.

Gets to a point in the discussion where you have no coherent response so you just pull out the same boring trope time and time again. If you have nothing to add to the conversation then don't bother.

Could say the same to you, blindly digging into a position and not actually listening to the counter-points, just screaming words that have lost all meaning or resorting to your old 'PMSL' when you have no other out. You could always, I don't know, consider what the other person is saying, particularly when I have said nothing particularly wild.

 

[moomba]

There it is.

Gets to a point in the discussion where you have no coherent response so you just pull out the same boring trope time and time again. If you have nothing to add to the conversation then don't bother.

Could say the same to you, blindly digging into a position and not actually listening to the counter-points, just screaming words that have lost all meaning or resorting to your old 'PMSL' when you have no other out. You could always, I don't know, consider what the other person is saying, particularly when I have said nothing particularly wild.

Calm down love.

There comes a point many discussions on here (usually involving you or Zidane) where its just not worth arguing the same point over and over.

You might find it boring tripe, but sometimes you don't need to write an essay when four letters will say everything you want.

I've pointed out a number of times my comments on competitiveness are focussed toward the top end of the league and the competitiveness of it. And I'm sure clubs at the bottom and middle of the league have a different point of view.

But like it or not, competitiveness at the top is what drives a lot of the revenue clubs right through the division get, and I think football fans are in for a treat in the next few years with Newcaslte maybe joining 4 or 5 teams with realistic chances of success.

 

[daicos4ever]

I know Klopp spoke against the Super League. After it was canned, mind you.

But it’s a bit rich coming from one of the biggest spending managers in the Premier League. He broke two world records to buy Van Dijk and Allison.

And let’s not forget Project Big Picture.

The “Big Six” can rightfully raise human rights as an issue. Taking the moral high ground over money, not so much.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

 

[Art Vandelay_]

The Southampton, Wolves, Sheff United, Leeds etc. finishes of promotion then a top half finish would be a thing of the past. I get your point, but surely there's some awareness that having clubs with 10bn+ net wealth owners owning half the league is far more anti-competitive than anything we've seen in the past. There was a golden period where the TV money was such that promoted clubs could genuinely compete with all bar the top 4-5 sides and that was a pretty good period, particularly while United, Liverpool, etc. went through wobbles that meant even those top 4-5 were vulnerable.

I'm not disagreeing it hasn't gotten worse.

With the deals with TV in place in the PL it means that even lower table teams have got a bit of money so new clubs coming up really do struggle. They realistically can't begin to spend all their PL money in advance because you earn it after season 1, but if it was all pre-spent then trying to find funds year 2 becomes a problem and they just kick the can down the road.

But ultimately when it comes to silverware 90% of domestic trophies in England are won by 4-5 clubs. It's just that City in many regards has replaced Arsenal, who continue to trudge along with a sustainable model of business and slowly regress back to the pack as a result.

I think money in the PL makes things problematic in 2 main ways.

1. When you win promotion you are at a severe disadvantage to everyone else, who have established themselves and can spend prudently. Risk of automatic relegation is high.
2. Once you settle into the league and establish a 8-17 league position there is little to aim for, European spots may be able to be fluked, but very hard to sustain. Top 4 and title are out of reach but for about 6 clubs.

 

[moomba]

I think money in the PL makes things problematic in 2 main ways.

1. When you win promotion you are at a severe disadvantage to everyone else, who have established themselves and can spend prudently. Risk of automatic relegation is high.
2. Once you settle into the league and establish a 8-17 league position there is little to aim for, European spots may be able to be fluked, but very hard to sustain. Top 4 and title are out of reach but for about 6 clubs.

I would argue that the same clubs qualifying for champions league year in year out gives them €100m extra revenue which they can use to pull further ahead of the chasing pack.

Champions league encourages clubs to overstretch themselves (through debt or owner investment) because the potential rewards are so great.

 

[jd2010]

Lol that 40% would boycott.

Bet you majority wouldn't have a clue about the land stealing and tax evading Joe Lewis had been doing the last 10 years.

Fair enough if you support Forrest Green Rovers you can spout outrage at everything morally corrupt in football. It's a bit rich from Spurs fanbase though considering the tax evading actions of our owner who then had the audacity to go cap in hand to the government at the start of the pandemic keep staff employed.

 

[SM]

I do find it a little strange the automatic revulsion at oil specifically as an industry, as if people who make their money from preying on gamblers or other things is any better.

 

[Zidane98]

Bet you majority wouldn't have a clue about the land stealing and tax evading Joe Lewis had been doing the last 10 years.

Fair enough if you support Forrest Green Rovers you can spout outrage at everything morally corrupt in football. It's a bit rich from Spurs fanbase though considering the tax evading actions of our owner who then had the audacity to go cap in hand to the government at the start of the pandemic keep staff employed.

Tax evading & furloughing do kinda pale into comparison against dismemberment of political dissidents at Saudi embassies, human rights abuses and waging a war though. For me there's a distinct difference.

 

[jd2010]

Tax evading & furloughing do kinda pale into comparison against dismemberment of political dissidents at Saudi embassies, human rights abuses and waging a war though. For me there's a distinct difference.

Degrees of shithousery no doubt.

But to get all high and mighty about what is wrong in the world should only come from those that are squeaky clean. Joe Lewis and ENIC are far from that.

 

[SM]

Degrees of shithousery no doubt.

But to get all high and mighty about what is wrong in the world should only come from those that are squeaky clean. Joe Lewis and ENIC are far from that.

Well I don't agree with that. Anyone can call out bad behaviour even if they aren't perfect in every way. The biggest changes start with the smallest steps.

 

[jd2010]

I do find it a little strange the automatic revulsion at oil specifically as an industry, as if people who make their money from preying on gamblers or other things is any better.

Bit of "they look different and wear different clothes" at play when people get outraged about Saudis, Qataris etc. and turn a blind eye to all the other s**t things going on in the sport

 

[Zidane98]

Degrees of shithousery no doubt.

But to get all high and mighty about what is wrong in the world should only come from those that are squeaky clean. Joe Lewis and ENIC are far from that.

All billionaires are involved in dodgy business practices, of that there is no doubt. Otherwise they wouldn't be billionaires!!!


Doesn't preclude them from criticising sports washing human rights abusing ownership groups. The Saudis would love it if only forest green rovers fans were the only ones to call them out!!!

 

[jd2010]

All billionaires are involved in dodgy business practices, of that there is no doubt. Otherwise they wouldn't be billionaires!!!


Doesn't preclude them from criticising sports washing human rights abusing ownership groups. The Saudis would love it if only forest green rovers fans were the only ones to call them out!!!

But where is the calling out for the Chileans and Argentinian's who have had their land illegally stolen from them for Joe Lewis to have a ranch built and a place for his yacht to dock? Because he is from the East End everyone turns a blind eye? Even if he doesn't want to be considered a Brit for tax purposes.

Same goes with Roman and his links to Putin. I think they get/got a lot less (none in most cases) heat because they eat what we eat and dress how we dress.