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pagan................. how long??

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godsmack

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Jan 21, 2004
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That was a pathetic effort from a blues team that supposedly turned a corner. Sick and tired of hearing commentators say that we are better than the score board shows.................. at the end of the day it's the score board that matters...... and only the score board. Pagan I believe has one more year on his contract............. if things don't turn around at the end of the 2005 season........... do you think that Carlton should persist with pagan and if so for how long??

Maybe if we finish last this year with 5 games or less............. and we pick up the best two youngsters, along with an uncontracted player....................... we could do things in the 2010 season............................ pathetic........... dismal............. this carlton outfit shows no heart........... and no pride in the jumper. Never happened when parkin, or britain was there
 
1. This is the first heartless performance out of six game for the Blues thus far.
2. It was almost a weekly occurrence with Brittain at the helm in 2002. They never gave a yelp most games.
 

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Whilst it was an extremely disappointing performance, the call to axe Pagan is somewhat premature. He has to be given the full year to get this new group playing together as a unified team.

There are times when I think his tactics are too one dimensional but really, who would you replace him with ?? I'll stick with Denis for this year and the one after that, no point in throwing out the baby with the bathwater just yet.
 
Originally posted by Thrawn
Are you okay?

Remember that game against Collingwood? Round 18?
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Considering the injuries that year i thought we at least tried. With pagan at the helm.................. we have had our worst defeats in the history of the club. I didn't say to get rid of him now........... what i did say was if we don't get back up there after the 2005 season................... do we then use the excuse that we need to give pagan a chance to allow the youngsters to come up and offer him another 3 years??
 
Originally posted by RoK
You are a fool simple as that,your mother gave birth to an idiot
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a fool for asking a question?? wheteer or not pagan should go after the 2005 season if things have not turned around. By your logic we should keep him until he dies . Your mother gave bith to a piece of sh1t and decided to keep it as a child......... F###ker!!!!!!
 
Originally posted by The Old Dark Navy's
1. This is the first heartless performance out of six game for the Blues thus far.
2. It was almost a weekly occurrence with Brittain at the helm in 2002. They never gave a yelp most games.
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considering the injury list we had.................... i thought we tried. Going down to brisbane at the gabba by 15 pts was proof of that. i agree it was our first heartless performance out of the six games..................... but it was our fourth worst defeat in our clubs history, and pagan was at the helm. My question is do we give him another contract after the 2005 season if things don't improve???
 
Im with ya Godsmack.

Pagan is a completely overrated moron who only knows the 1990's style of football with Carey in the goal square.

If he ever came to Essendon, I would be mortified.
 
Originally posted by godsmack
this carlton outfit shows no heart........... and no pride in the jumper.
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:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
How the hell can you say that after one bad loss???????

I bet you weren't saying that after last weeks win over WC!

Give the Coach and the team some time to develop together (at least this season) and then if we are still as bad as we have been over the last two years say whatever the hell you like!!!

Until then I think Richmond needs you.....;)
 
Re: Re: pagan................. how long??

Originally posted by Badabing
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:
How the hell can you say that after one bad loss???????

I bet you weren't saying that after last weeks win over WC!

Give the Coach and the team some time to develop together (at least this season) and then if we are still as bad as we have been over the last two years say whatever the hell you like!!!

Until then I think Richmond needs you.....;)
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My quote “this team shows no heart"............ is based on the fact that under pagan we have had our worst defeats in the clubs history. Now, what pi$$es me off is that every other coach is scrutinized, but it seems as though pagan has a free run, because our list is not as good as everyone’s else’s and not much is expected. That I think is a cop out...................... and if we finish in the bottom 4 again this year.................... then I think that pagan has to be looked at. That's all..................... I don't see anything wrong with that reasoning....... do you??

He was given a three year contract with the option of the fourth. What I have put forward was a question............. which none of you have bothered to answer....................... ?should we keep him as coach if after the 2005 season we have not improved??[/B
 
Re: Re: Re: pagan................. how long??

Originally posted by godsmack
My quote “this team shows no heart"............ is based on the fact that under pagan we have had our worst defeats in the clubs history. Now, what pi$$es me off is that every other coach is scrutinized, but it seems as though pagan has a free run, because our list is not as good as everyone’s else’s and not much is expected. That I think is a cop out...................... and if we finish in the bottom 4 again this year.................... then I think that pagan has to be looked at. That's all..................... I don't see anything wrong with that reasoning....... do you??

He was given a three year contract with the option of the fourth. What I have put forward was a question............. which none of you have bothered to answer....................... ?should we keep him as coach if after the 2005 season we have not improved??[/B
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In response to your question........
If we were to win another 2 games & have another season like last, pressure will be on him.

I however believe he will get the goods out of this group of players & at the end of thyear we should have 6-8 wins on the board.
I was hoping for 8 wins, anything under 6 wins would be considered a very small step forward.
Remembering that next year we are on a level footing with all other clubs come draft time, it would be hasty & even "Richmond or St. Kilda" like (in past years....) to give him the chop.

He has taken on a role with many restrictions & limitations.

Bottom line - around abouts in 2005 (12-7th), & definitely pushing for finals in 2006.

So NO - dont sack PAGAN at this very delicate phase in our clubs revival.
Our list is better than last years....... Agree ?
Our list will be better again by the end of the PSD next year......

One terrible display - lets see how we bounce back from this before we start gettin FERAL & lets hope we dont see any of that poor "fabric" destroying behaviour at our great club - which we all love.
 
To answer your question godsmack, I think we should give Pagan around 4 years (another 2 after this year) before we judge/hang/praise him ( I M O ). Until then I think we should sit back and see how it all unfolds.....If we haven't made a significant impact on the comp by 2006 then I think Pagan himself would start to question his ability as a top line coach. The reason (IMO) Pagan has escaped much of the scrutiny you speak of is because he has the runs on the board (PREMIERSHIPS) and is a well respected figure among the footy community.

The "excuse" you speak of is a fact - not a cop out - It wasn't Pagans fault that we have been restricted in our participation in the last two drafts....it isn't Pagans fault that Britton and Parkin only recruited with the next 5 minutes in mind (Mansfield,O'Reily,Plunket,Murphyx2, etc...AND lost Hamil), ....it isn't Pagans fault that John Elliot said "we never re-build". Our list isn't as good as most other teams - this is a fact - so we should expect to see some ups and downs over the next year or until Pagan AND the players all work out where their best fit on the team is.

I can't remember the last time I saw the blue boys play with as much heart, courage and determination as I did against WC last week and beat a team convincingly. A good sign of things to come IMO. Yesterday was a one off...the boys probably just got abit ahead of themselves and watched the replay too many times. I was just as gutted as any loyal blues fan after yesterdays loss but I'm realistic enough to know that we will have our ups and downs and no doubt last weekend was a masive down - lets just get on with it and look forward to playing Collingwood next week and hopefully getting back to some hard footy!

I dont think we will finish bottom 4 this year however I think that even if we do then Pagan should not even feel the slightest pressure from the Club or the supporters to be sacked. Pagan has taken on a monumental task in re-building a team that was built around one player (Kouta) by a club led by one of the most arrogant men in football who has driven this club so hard and far into the ground that it's going to take a hell of alot longer that two years (2003/04) to get us up again! Keep in mind also that if we do finish bottom four or even bottom 6-7 we will get some handy picks in the first couple of rounds of the draft.

GO BLUES!!!!!!
 

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Well put,
But just to re-iterate, our season should not soley be based on ladder position.
It is actually very even down the bottom 1/2 of the ladder.
Our benchmark should & probably would have been 8 wins.
Thats 4 wins & 100% imnprovement from last year.
Thats what counts - wins........I'd hate to see us sneak into a 12th or 11th spot based on 5 or 6 wins & other clubs being "worse / more pathetic" than us.
If we get those 8 wins its a good year for the club, so long as we dont get blown away out of the water again like Sunday.
The occaisional hammering should still be expected with uor young list, but lets hope we see more wins & even as important good spirit & fight when we are looking down the barrel.
 
Originally posted by godsmack
Considering the injuries that year i thought we at least tried. With pagan at the helm.................. we have had our worst defeats in the history of the club. I didn't say to get rid of him now........... what i did say was if we don't get back up there after the 2005 season................... do we then use the excuse that we need to give pagan a chance to allow the youngsters to come up and offer him another 3 years??
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Are you talking about the year when we had an 18 man defense??????:rolleyes:
 
There are things you are not aware of godsmack.

The source who told me the ins and outs for the West Coast game has told me the following.

In 2003, we had a bunch of dissenters at the club. Some of them were people we'd regard as champions. Apart from 1, they are all gone from the club, either retired, delisted, traded. They were so angry at Pagan they deliberately would not kick the ball to some players. Hard to believe, but it is true. The rd22 game against the Roos was a case in point. Players were on strike. Anyone who has sources within the club would know that.

Part of the problem was Angwin, I believe Fev made mention of this on TFS by saying it was a relief that he was gone. However, the problems had begun before that. A lot of the players are overpaid primadonnas who think that they can get away with being soft on the training track. Time some of them got a reality check.

Pagan has been hamstrung since he got here, he's done incredibly well to change the list. Give him a more time. He'll probably be offered a 2 year contract after this one ends.
 
All makes perfect sense to me. Makes Manton's comments last year about treating people with respect seem a little off the mark doesn't it. There were also the rumours about Beaumont going around bagging Pagan to all of the North players..pretty smart Bowy.....:rolleyes:

I'd love to know who the last player is??? My guess would probably be either Kouta or Campo......maybe Whitnal....or am I way off the mark??
 
Originally posted by BluesPrez
There are things you are not aware of godsmack.

The source who told me the ins and outs for the West Coast game has told me the following.

In 2003, we had a bunch of dissenters at the club. Some of them were people we'd regard as champions. Apart from 1, they are all gone from the club, either retired, delisted, traded. They were so angry at Pagan they deliberately would not kick the ball to some players. Hard to believe, but it is true. The rd22 game against the Roos was a case in point. Players were on strike. Anyone who has sources within the club would know that.

Part of the problem was Angwin, I believe Fev made mention of this on TFS by saying it was a relief that he was gone. However, the problems had begun before that. A lot of the players are overpaid primadonnas who think that they can get away with being soft on the training track. Time some of them got a reality check.

Pagan has been hamstrung since he got here, he's done incredibly well to change the list. Give him a more time. He'll probably be offered a 2 year contract after this one ends.
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The question is - why would they be so bitter to a club that has given them so much? What could Pagan have done that would lower them to that level?

If that's true... I think these individuals have lowered their colours.
 

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Originally posted by Badabing
All makes perfect sense to me. Makes Manton's comments last year about treating people with respect seem a little off the mark doesn't it. There were also the rumours about Beaumont going around bagging Pagan to all of the North players..pretty smart Bowy.....:rolleyes:

I'd love to know who the last player is??? My guess would probably be either Kouta or Campo......maybe Whitnal....or am I way off the mark??
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No, it's Hulme. We tried to trade him last year but no-one wanted him and he was contracted for this year. With his shocking performances this year I think we can assume he will be GAWN at the end of the year.

And Beaumont was one of the dissenters. The truth had to come out eventually. He admitted as such in an Age article.

Pretty sad state, Pagan hasn't deserved this. Luckily the players are a lot more content now.
 
Originally posted by BluesPrez
Pretty sad state, Pagan hasn't deserved this. Luckily the players are a lot more content now.
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FINE................. all well and good. Would have thought that players are harder to find then a coach. Pagan has just about said that him self by allowing the players to coach themselves for this weeks collingwood game. Does that mean that if the players perform better without a coach, then maybe it's time to save that 800,000 a year that we are paying pagan??
 
Originally posted by BluesPrez
No, it's Hulme. We tried to trade him last year but no-one wanted him and he was contracted for this year. With his shocking performances this year I think we can assume he will be GAWN at the end of the year.

And Beaumont was one of the dissenters. The truth had to come out eventually. He admitted as such in an Age article.

Pretty sad state, Pagan hasn't deserved this. Luckily the players are a lot more content now.
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Pretty surprised about that BP....I would have thought Hulmie was one of the more loyal blokes around the club.....pretty disapointing as I thought that what he lacked in skill he made up for in his dedication to the club.....we don't need blokes like that around (if it's true)....thanks for clearing that up for me.


Originally posted by godsmack
FINE................. all well and good. Would have thought that players are harder to find then a coach. Pagan has just about said that him self by allowing the players to coach themselves for this weeks collingwood game. Does that mean that if the players perform better without a coach, then maybe it's time to save that 800,000 a year that we are paying pagan??
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Obviously you are joking because no-one could possible make ridiculous statements like that and be even half serious......
 
Yeah, Hulme was easily led, with the ringleaders gone and the influx of midfielders he's had to fight and improve but he hasn't.

godsmack, you're an ignorant poster. If you want to blame the coach one week after beating WCE by 49 points then go and support Richmond.
 
Originally posted by BluesPrez

godsmack, you're an ignorant poster. If you want to blame the coach one week after beating WCE by 49 points then go and support Richmond.
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You place too much credance on the win against WC.............. unlike you i saw it for what it was...................... WC were drained after their win against BL................... as for our other win against geelong.................... if you actually watched the game you would have noticed that that game could have gone either way if not for the cats poor kicking. I've always blamed the coach.................. because if it's all up to the players......... then why the F##k are we paying pagan 800,000 if he has no bearing on the results of any of our games??
 

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pagan................. how long??

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