pagan

[gangsta deluxe]

gday guys.
i was just wondering what you guys think about pagan. Do you want a new coach or do you still have faith?
from the perspective of someone who does not support carlton it is very confusing. On one hand the guy is an excellent coach whos style has altered the way the game has been played in the last 20 years. On the other he is a coach who has an abysmal record with carlton.

 

[whippety boy]

gday guys.
i was just wondering what you guys think about pagan. Do you want a new coach or do you still have faith?
from the perspective of someone who does not support carlton it is very confusing. On one hand the guy is an excellent coach whos style has altered the way the game has been played in the last 20 years. On the other he is a coach who has an abysmal record with carlton.

Even Pagan would admit this has been his biggest test, adapting to the modern game. Not only the way game is played but how to manage players. I really hope Denis can achieve something with us.

 

[Tennant]

gday guys.
i was just wondering what you guys think about pagan. Do you want a new coach or do you still have faith?
from the perspective of someone who does not support carlton it is very confusing. On one hand the guy is an excellent coach whos style has altered the way the game has been played in the last 20 years. On the other he is a coach who has an abysmal record with carlton.

At this stage of the year, you would have to stick with Pagan. At the end of the year will determine Pagan's fate. If Carlton show no improvement at all and finish last again. Then he simply has to go (regardless if he has 1 year of a contract to run). Pagan is entering his 5th year at Carlton and there are no more excuses.

 

[BlueDevil]

well you know the old saying if you dont have the cattle........................... well we've been to the sale yards and brought us some top quality calfs the last couple of years, pagan will have a bit more to work with this year unlike other years gone by.

 

[AndyWalkersGirl]

very well said Blue Devil...

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Hmmm not sure, better check with JimtheGreat

 

[Silvagnis]

New coach thanks.

 

[BlueDevil]

very well said Blue Devil...

Ta AWG. dont forget pagan coched the north U19's to a flag so he has tasted success with youngsters, which strangley enough is what our club seems to be all about.

 

[BlueWorld]

well you know the old saying if you dont have the cattle........................... well we've been to the sale yards and brought us some top quality calfs the last couple of years, pagan will have a bit more to work with this year unlike other years gone by.

Not sure how many of the calves are ready to have an impact at AFL level yet plus Pagan likes them to spend plenty of time on the bench while thrashing the older players- esp Stevens & in 2005 Kouta.

A string of early or big losses early in the season could mean an early end, with Ratten likely to take over.

 

[ClayBlue87]

But where is the line for pagan this year?
How many victories does he need to save his head?
What if we got lots of injuries? is he still to blame?

IMO, with a full list he needs better than 5 wins and atleast to come 14th to have any chance of survival.

We cant set unreachable standards, but hey if Essendon can make top 4 , im sure we could atleast make the finals .

 

[BlueDevil]

Not sure how many of the calves are ready to have an impact at AFL level yet plus Pagan likes them to spend plenty of time on the bench while thrashing the older players- esp Stevens & in 2005 Kouta.

A string of early or big losses early in the season could mean an early end, with Ratten likely to take over.

you know strangley enough i hadn't even thought of ratten as a ready made senior coach, but i see what your saying he would be perfect (should pagan go, AND if we suffered a few losses), depending on what the board says and all.

 

[thylacine60]

Well if Pagan does get the arse and Rats steps in, we can at least look forward to the traditional win the following week. Hope it's against the Saints.

 

[btdg]

Pagan has no chance at all- dead man walking. If we finish last, he'll get the sack (surely - no coach has ever finished last 3 years in a row and kept their job, have they?). Yet we're a very, very good chance to finish last - we're just not ready to improve yet. Seriously, some of our young guys would have to improve way more than expected, plus the oldies would have to get a second wind - and even then we'd still have to get lucky.

My money is Pagan gets 7-10 weeks in, then throws in the towel. He'll probably see out the year; thats just how they seem to do it these days.

Of course, if he is the genius we thought he was, he'll come through and we'll get off the bottom this year - here's hoping!

 

[surpstar]

 

[surpstar]

Just in case my point was missed

 

[Blue_4_Life]

I've missed a lot of the press having been in Sydney the last couple of years, however I can't help but feel Pagan has been made the clubs scapegoat.

Aside from all the turmoil at the time of appointment with Brittain, loss of draft picks, salary cap breach, change of board, etc...our list was average at best.

Everyone then felt he was our messiah, and that despite all the negative goings on, he would lead us to glory. The fact he did not IMO was primarily due to our list.

It will always take time for players to adapt to new playing/ coaching styles and no doubt Pagan dented a few egos due to his forceful style, particularly when compared to Brittain's...who was by all accounts more 'forgiving' (probably because he had to be), and didn't demand the same level of respect from the players.

Since his appointment, our list has been turned over, plugging holes along the way as required and injected with youth, and it's only now that we are beginning to see the benefits. He has put in the hard yards through the clubs most difficult period, and I've got confidence in his ability to make progress this year.

I love Ratts, but I don't think he's ready to be a senior coach yet, and stability should be one of or foremost aims at this stage. Besides, can you imagine the weight of expectation to succeed should he be appointed mid season? It would be a farce, then people would be crying out for further change.

I think Pagan deserves season 2007, with the list he's been a part of building (arguably our best since his appointment), which will also give Ratts a year to further develop his skills as a coach. Then at the end of the year if it's deemed Pagan is not the most suitable person for the job, we find that person.

The board will soon be sorted out democratically with all of us having our say, then it is up to everyone to put their personal agendas aside and support the club from president to boot studder, only then will we move forward.

 

[jj1978]

Ta AWG. dont forget pagan coched the north U19's to a flag so he has tasted success with youngsters, which strangley enough is what our club seems to be all about.

BlueDevil one could argue that he tasted success with U19 youngsters who were playing against U19 youngsters!

Our youngsters are playing against seniors.... so there is a slight difference from that perspective.

I think Pagan will prove something this year... remember 2004... he got a bunch of hacks to win 10 games.... and the last 2 years really had no choice but to introduce young kids a bit earlier than perhaps he may have liked... but we needed to... no PAIN no GAIN!

 

[HavUEvaSeenTheRain]

He has been given the worst list since the Fitzroy days so i can't see what people are expecting from him. The only fear i have is that he will be moved on before some of our younger players start to step up and he will not have been able to prove himself.

 

[bibi01]

IMO pagan is still the right man for the job and has my support.

as has been said if you don't have the players, you a limited in what you can acheive.

IMO and this is coming from my personal experience- players win games of football, coaches, support staff are all important and contribute to success or failure, but the 22 who take the field on the weekend win or lose the game.

so our players need to take some responsibility

no matter who is coaching a side, if your key fwd's miss goals from 30 meters out our your midfielders miss passess 20 meters away

executing basic football skills are the responsibilty of the players.....coaches can refine, remodel, try to improve players skills but at the end of the day its the players responsibility.

lets not forget the state our list was in at the end of 2002 and the players we lost at the end of 2003
add to they the removal of 5 key draft picks in 2003/04 and also the inability to be able to trade into rounds 1 or 2 of the draft.

some say pagan has not changed his playing style but if you have a look at our games in each of the years, you will notice there has been changes in the style of game we have played, yeah our record shows we have not playerd well in many of those games but our style has changes/evolved/adapted.

we need to look beyond win/loss ratio and have a look at the big picture when assessing where we are at and is pagan the right man for the job.

 

[BlueDevil]

BlueDevil one could argue that he tasted success with U19 youngsters who were playing against U19 youngsters!

Our youngsters are playing against seniors.... so there is a slight difference from that perspective.

I think Pagan will prove something this year... remember 2004... he got a bunch of hacks to win 10 games.... and the last 2 years really had no choice but to introduce young kids a bit earlier than perhaps he may have liked... but we needed to... no PAIN no GAIN!

yep, fair point. most of our young squad (bar the new draftees) have had a taste of AFL footy already which puts them in good stead. i especially liked when he promoted the rookies to give them a game. i think if they all fire pagan should be safe as a church. but can we expect them to fire each and every week?

 

[jj1978]

yep, fair point. most of our young squad (bar the new draftees) have had a taste of AFL footy already which puts them in good stead. i especially liked when he promoted the rookies to give them a game. i think if they all fire pagan should be safe as a church. but can we expect them to fire each and every week?

Well this is where we should see if Pagan is the right man for the job and give him this year as his make or break.

The fruits of his labour should now be evident.... and we should see us achieve wins not off the back of raw talent, but also from a good game-plan that suits the list we now have.

I think Pagan will be seen quite differently at that later stages of this season.

 

[Jimthegreat]

well you know the old saying if you dont have the cattle........................... well we've been to the sale yards and brought us some top quality calfs the last couple of years, pagan will have a bit more to work with this year unlike other years gone by.

Let's see......4 AA's (Fev, Lance Lappin, Kouta), including the coleman medalist (if you want to go back to 2005 as well it would be 5), another who's played in 2 GF's (Scotland), another who would've be a 2004 premiership player except he come home (Stevens), another who went to Ireland (Simmo...that's 3 that went inc Simmo, Fev and Lappin), silky-slikked players like Houlihan, young guns like Murphy, Walker, Fisher, Waite.etc... I think the list is something alot better than what we've been getting the last 4 years. So much for the list excuse. If one can't at least do something with that lot (and I'm not asking premierships, or even finals...just to progress with more wins than the previous year, that would be enough) then you don't deserve your paypacket, especially one's that cost us $600,000 a year. We'd have got a better result p1ssing that amount up the wall. Would've been a few good night's out with those bikkies.

 

[Jimthegreat]

Hmmm not sure, better check with JimtheGreat

I'm here!!!! Just poked my nose through the door then!!!

 

[BlueDevil]

Let's see......4 AA's (Fev, Lance Lappin, Kouta), including the coleman medalist (if you want to go back to 2005 as well it would be 5), another who's played in 2 GF's (Scotland), another who would've be a 2004 premiership player except he come home (Stevens), another who went to Ireland (Simmo...that's 3 that went inc Simmo, Fev and Lappin), silky-slikked players like Houlihan, young guns like Murphy, Walker, Fisher, Waite.etc... I think the list is something alot better than what we've been getting the last 4 years. So much for the list excuse. If one can't at least do something with that lot (and I'm not asking premierships, or even finals...just to progress with more wins than the previous year, that would be enough) then you don't deserve your paypacket, especially one's that cost us $600,000 a year. We'd have got a better result p1ssing that amount up the wall. Would've been a few good night's out with those bikkies.

hmm nose in the door, more like a headbutt, but anyway fevola was gone before pagan came. we would have been spanked by more in past years if fevs had been gone. at least pagan got one thing right.

 

[linchpin]

Let's see......4 AA's (Fev, Lance Lappin, Kouta), including the coleman medalist (if you want to go back to 2005 as well it would be 5), another who's played in 2 GF's (Scotland), another who would've be a 2004 premiership player except he come home (Stevens), another who went to Ireland (Simmo...that's 3 that went inc Simmo, Fev and Lappin), silky-slikked players like Houlihan, young guns like Murphy, Walker, Fisher, Waite.etc... I think the list is something alot better than what we've been getting the last 4 years. So much for the list excuse. If one can't at least do something with that lot (and I'm not asking premierships, or even finals...just to progress with more wins than the previous year, that would be enough) then you don't deserve your paypacket, especially one's that cost us $600,000 a year. We'd have got a better result p1ssing that amount up the wall. Would've been a few good night's out with those bikkies.

4 AA's????

I hope your talking about batteries? If not you have gone for the black and gold and not the duracell!

Lance and Fev are there..Many up and comers, but Lappin and Kouta are already out in the bin...They just wont recharge anymore!