Palm Island

[campbell]

Where to now for this community?According to reports they don't even want the teachers back next year. They want their own curriculum and aboriginal teachers only.They don't want the police back, in any way shape or form.

To me it seems like they want to rule themselves out side the laws of our society.What gives this community the right to do that?

 

[Qsaint]

Where to now for this community?According to reports they don't even want the teachers back next year. They want their own curriculum and aboriginal teachers only.They don't want the police back, in any way shape or form.

To me it seems like they want to rule themselves out side the laws of our society.What gives this community the right to do that?

A long history of conflict, which hasn't all (or the majority) caused by whities. They are just utilising (rightly or wrongly) the empathy that a large section of the community is giving them. Being cynical, they perhaps shouldn't take whities money either ?

 

[Birdy]

They are just a bunch of troublemakers. They complain about "white mans" law when they're doing the wrong thing but they don't mind it too much when they're standing in the dole queue.

 

[crocodileman]

To me it seems like they want to rule themselves out side the laws of our society.What gives this community the right to do that?

The principle of terra nullius that white society was founded on in Australia generally and the island specifically, that's what gives them the right!

 

[UNIT]

The irony is the copper there after has been there for years and has busted his gut to help the people of Palm Island. There are white people living on that island and working in a variety of capacities trying to help and improve the quality of life for indigenous people. If Aborigines are so keen to have self determination then they should set up their own not for profit organizations and charitys to distribute moneys where appropriate instead of just demanding money from the white man under threat of labelling them a racist or shaming them internationally. But i guess its not gonna happen when the Geoff Clarks and Robert Brophos of this world are happy to live it up in their nice houses and $70,000 4wds while the people that need help are living in hell.

 

[crocodileman]

The irony is the copper there after has been there for years and has busted his gut to help the people of Palm Island. There are white people living on that island and working in a variety of capacities trying to help and improve the quality of life for indigenous people. If Aborigines are so keen to have self determination then they should set up their own not for profit organizations and charitys to distribute moneys where appropriate instead of just demanding money from the white man under threat of labelling them a racist or shaming them internationally. But i guess its not gonna happen when the Geoff Clarks and Robert Brophos of this world are happy to live it up in their nice houses and $70,000 4wds while the people that need help are living in hell.

Unit, under your flawed logic, people like Kerry Packer shouldn't be living in mansions because some caucasian people are living in squalor in this country.

What have you got against some Aborigines having nice homes and 4WD's?

And by the way, Aborigines do have their own not for profit organisations for their communities - take your head out of the sand and you may learn something.

And speaking of police, did you see the sickening attempts by the police of PR when they were sucking up to Aboriginal kids on that jetty on the island 1 week after Doomadgee's death. Scumbags! Why weren't they there a week before his death?

All for the media - a sickening stunt!

 

[UNIT]

Quote:
Unit, under your flawed logic, people like Kerry Packer shouldn't be living in mansions because some caucasian people are living in squalor in this country.

What have you got against some Aborigines having nice homes and 4WD's?

Nothing mate. So long as it is THEIR money being used to purchase such goods. Not money set aside to put air conditioning into a school for community kids, or purchase medical supplies, etc etc. By the time the money that is thrown at Aboriginal health and social problems reaches those that need it most there is next to nothing left, layers and layers and layers of bueracracy just eat it up. Thats why ATSIC has been abolished in preference of giving money directly to service providers at a local level, as opposed to giving it to ATSIC and watching it be gobbled up by those on the lucrative gravy train.

Honestly Croc, can u honestly say that there isnt enough money being thrown at Aboriginal issues in this country? We could throw the entire budget at it and i doubt it would make any difference.

 

[crocodileman]

Quote:
Unit, under your flawed logic, people like Kerry Packer shouldn't be living in mansions because some caucasian people are living in squalor in this country.

What have you got against some Aborigines having nice homes and 4WD's?

Nothing mate. So long as it is THEIR money being used to purchase such goods. Not money set aside to put air conditioning into a school for community kids, or purchase medical supplies, etc etc. By the time the money that is thrown at Aboriginal health and social problems reaches those that need it most there is next to nothing left, layers and layers and layers of bueracracy just eat it up. Thats why ATSIC has been abolished in preference of giving money directly to service providers at a local level, as opposed to giving it to ATSIC and watching it be gobbled up by those on the lucrative gravy train.

Honestly Croc, can u honestly say that there isnt enough money being thrown at Aboriginal issues in this country? We could throw the entire budget at it and i doubt it would make any difference.

To the best of my knowledge, there has only been about 6 aborigines ever convicted of misappropriation of funds, yet you are here saying it's an endemic practice in Black Australia. I say bollocks - there is absolutely no evidence to support your scandalous claims. To suggest that there are Aborigines driving around in 4WD's and that money should have been used to purchase school air conditioners is almost as big a conspiracy theory that I've heard. It cannot be substantiated by any real examples and is just a case of generational racism and some white Australians who are happy to see Aborigines continue to be disempowered.

The money you talk about being put into Aboriginal communities may not make much impact in the short term - but it is necessary and once this generational systemic racism is addressed in this country -then, and only then will things change.

 

[UNIT]

I wasnt citing a specific example Croc. Im sure i could cite a few examples on here if you like, but i wouldnt want to defame any upstanding members of the community. Can u honestly say all monies allotted for Aborigines is getting to where it is needed? Before you deflect this argument by saying it goes on in White man world too (which it does) remind yourself that its members of the indigenous population that are dying of diseases that have been largely eradicated in the wider population, that die thirty years shy of the national average life expectancy.
How is it an attempt to disempower the indigenous population by stating that i want to see the money that is set aside for them to go to them?;How u can interperet that as racist is completely beyond my skills of comprehension. Its this sort of inability to even admit a problem exists and lashing out at anyone (black or white) who speaks up that is what needs to change Croc.
It might sound harsh, but until those who have worked in the ATSICS and other Govt Depts accept that they have failed to provide what is needed and dont just throw up 'well its cos the white mans racist' then nothing will change, because believe me you cant say its through a lack of money being thrown at this problem.
Is it because of the White Man, Croc, that three Aboriginal boys broke into an 87 year old Perth womans house and r*ped and bashed her? Did a white man force them to do that?
Im just curious to hear your response.

 

[crocodileman]

I wasnt citing a specific example Croc. Im sure i could cite a few examples on here if you like, but i wouldnt want to defame any upstanding members of the community. Can u honestly say all monies allotted for Aborigines is getting to where it is needed? Before you deflect this argument by saying it goes on in White man world too (which it does) remind yourself that its members of the indigenous population that are dying of diseases that have been largely eradicated in the wider population, that die thirty years shy of the national average life expectancy.
How is it an attempt to disempower the indigenous population by stating that i want to see the money that is set aside for them to go to them?;How u can interperet that as racist is completely beyond my skills of comprehension. Its this sort of inability to even admit a problem exists and lashing out at anyone (black or white) who speaks up that is what needs to change Croc.
It might sound harsh, but until those who have worked in the ATSICS and other Govt Depts accept that they have failed to provide what is needed and dont just throw up 'well its cos the white mans racist' then nothing will change, because believe me you cant say its through a lack of money being thrown at this problem.
Is it because of the White Man, Croc, that three Aboriginal boys broke into an 87 year old Perth womans house and r*ped and bashed her? Did a white man force them to do that?
Im just curious to hear your response.

You know, you sound like a 19th century pastoralist justifying the shooting and extermination of blacks so as they could control and use their land.

That's right Unit - THEIR land!

Of course you are racist! You are citing isolated examples of anti-social and criminal behaviour in our indigenous population in an attempt to get a point across. And what was that point? That too much is being spent on Aboriginal affairs and it is not making any difference to their plight.

Well, you are wrong on several points. If the plight of blacks is so bad, and they are dying much younger than other Australians (and it's 20 years, not 30 btw) have Third World diseases and major economic and social problems. Well if this is the case, how can it be solved without the major input of monies? Admittedly, this isn't the only answer, but it is vital.

On the one hand you question the honesty of the system of distributing monies to blacks, yet you say don't comment on the same for the white community. There is fraud at all levels of society, but I'll go out on a limb and say that I'm categorically certain that more white Australians then black, per capita, are charged and convicted of misappropriation, dishonesty and fraud related crimes.

Take your hands away from your eyes and see what you're doing. People like you have no solutions - you are just white-anting fellow Australians - the First Australians. You have no solutions except cut their spending and make these buggers work for their handouts.

You're a product of a bygone era - wake up!

 

[- PC -]

You know, you sound like a 19th century pastoralist justifying the shooting and extermination of blacks so as they could control and use their land.

That's right Unit - THEIR land!

Of course you are racist! You are citing isolated examples of anti-social and criminal behaviour in our indigenous population in an attempt to get a point across. And what was that point? That too much is being spent on Aboriginal affairs and it is not making any difference to their plight.

Well, you are wrong on several points. If the plight of blacks is so bad, and they are dying much younger than other Australians (and it's 20 years, not 30 btw) have Third World diseases and major economic and social problems. Well if this is the case, how can it be solved without the major input of monies? Admittedly, this isn't the only answer, but it is vital.

On the one hand you question the honesty of the system of distributing monies to blacks, yet you say don't comment on the same for the white community. There is fraud at all levels of society, but I'll go out on a limb and say that I'm categorically certain that more white Australians then black, per capita, are charged and convicted of misappropriation, dishonesty and fraud related crimes.

Take your hands away from your eyes and see what you're doing. People like you have no solutions - you are just white-anting fellow Australians - the First Australians. You have no solutions except cut their spending and make these buggers work for their handouts.

You're a product of a bygone era - wake up!

Ahh the old ''if you dont agree your a racist''

Well count me as a racist because I thought units post was brilliant. He didnt use the tired old ''theyre drunks and thieves '' line that most racists would use. He made a relevant point on how throwing money hasnt worked so why not look at alternative solutions. Sure lets look at how many hospitals are built in remote areas, and then ask those same health specialists how frustrating it is when patients dont turn up for much needed follow up appointments.Cant help those who wont help themselves.

Its not about racism IMO its about accountability. If you give some one or a group money you expect to see a return,obviously there is not much of a return if the problems still exist.

What are your solutions? Its all well and good to say we have no solutions but what are yours?Why shouldnt people work for their handouts?

Heard of this place?

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/other/IndigLRes/rciadic/individual/brm_ra/7.html

The community is administered through an incorporated association, the Ngangganawili Council. The association is presently involved in three projects; Desert Gold, Emu Farm and Mungilli. Desert Gold is a citrus fruit plantation. The emu farm breeds emus for a variety of emu products, including eggs and leather. Mungilli is an outstation located in an area that many of the older community members consider home. It has been developed for the purpose of returning these older members of the community to the area.

Aboriginals working hard for their community to develop their community.

Why cant there be more of that?

Has ATSIC failed? Of course it has.

 

[demon_dave]

As a Drug & Alcohol Clinician who has worked with the Indigenous population in the past, in clinics as well as in jail, I would say that substance abuse along with low self esteem is the main problem. The aboriginal community has been treated as second class citizens for over 200 years and with the current goverment not helping at all, the problem will go on until a future government has a change of heart.
They don't need money thrown at them, they need communities like Palm Island where they can control their own destiny so let them have the island. The elders of the community would do well to make it a dry island to start with then I'm sure they will prove they are not second class citizens as most Australians think they are.

 

[Qsaint]

As a Drug & Alcohol Clinician who has worked with the Indigenous population in the past, in clinics as well as in jail, I would say that substance abuse along with low self esteem is the main problem. The aboriginal community has been treated as second class citizens for over 200 years and with the current goverment not helping at all, the problem will go on until a future government has a change of heart.
They don't need money thrown at them, they need communities like Palm Island where they can control their own destiny so let them have the island. The elders of the community would do well to make it a dry island to start with then I'm sure they will prove they are not second class citizens as most Australians think they are.

The problem is more than that, Noel Pearson says they need work to boost self esteem and self worth. But of course there is no work on Palm Island or the remote settlements. I respect that they have a connection with there land, but the governments Federal and state have not even attempted to solve this problem.

 

[otaku]

They don't need money thrown at them, they need communities like Palm Island where they can control their own destiny so let them have the island. The elders of the community would do well to make it a dry island to start with then I'm sure they will prove they are not second class citizens as most Australians think they are.

do you wanna explain this a bit more?? You want them to "control their own destiny"?


WTF? Am I reading this wrong, or are you proposing an autonomous state for aboriginals?

 

[WA ROO]

You know, you sound like a 19th century pastoralist justifying the shooting and extermination of blacks so as they could control and use their land.

That's right Unit - THEIR land!

Of course you are racist! You are citing isolated examples of anti-social and criminal behaviour in our indigenous population in an attempt to get a point across. And what was that point? That too much is being spent on Aboriginal affairs and it is not making any difference to their plight.

Well, you are wrong on several points. If the plight of blacks is so bad, and they are dying much younger than other Australians (and it's 20 years, not 30 btw) have Third World diseases and major economic and social problems. Well if this is the case, how can it be solved without the major input of monies? Admittedly, this isn't the only answer, but it is vital.

On the one hand you question the honesty of the system of distributing monies to blacks, yet you say don't comment on the same for the white community. There is fraud at all levels of society, but I'll go out on a limb and say that I'm categorically certain that more white Australians then black, per capita, are charged and convicted of misappropriation, dishonesty and fraud related crimes.

Take your hands away from your eyes and see what you're doing. People like you have no solutions - you are just white-anting fellow Australians - the First Australians. You have no solutions except cut their spending and make these buggers work for their handouts.

You're a product of a bygone era - wake up!

Clark,Bropho and Mansell(hell I am more Aboriginal than Mansell) have reeled you in hook line and sinker.While living in Darwin I used to drive past the ATSIC offices in Casuarina it looked like a Landcruiser dealership brand new $70,000 Landcruisers every six months or so.
That would mean over 2 milion per year on cars that never went further than Humpty Doo
Waste of money? Well it could have gone to settlements that have nothing but the ATSIC elite needed those brand new Landcruisers more

 

[UNIT]

Looks like our friend Croc has gone a bit.
I actually agree with the idea of indigenous Australians 'controlling their own destiny' and self determination for the record. But they cant do that while being so largely reliant upon 'the white man' for financial support, it really is as simple as that. I didnt for a second question the importance and nessecity of Commenwealth support for tackling indigenous health problems, of course that has to be addressed in the same way that any other issue effecting Australian citizens on such a scale must be addressed.
But Croc, just blaming the white man, shouting that its 'our land', etc etc is not going to get your people out of the welfare cycle, stop them dying from diseases we havent seen in urban centres in any great numbers since the 50s, stop them beating their women, killing themselves and their people in car wrecks, get them to attend school....the list sadly just goes on and on.

The fact is it is nearly 2005, and we all have to live together as much as some people on both sides of this debate wish that were not so. Putting your head in the sand, denying the obvious and just blaming 'whitey' for everything will ensure people will still be having this debate in 50 years time.

 

[David Votoupal]

Looks like our friend Croc has gone a bit.
I actually agree with the idea of indigenous Australians 'controlling their own destiny' and self determination for the record. But they cant do that while being so largely reliant upon 'the white man' for financial support, it really is as simple as that. I didnt for a second question the importance and nessecity of Commenwealth support for tackling indigenous health problems, of course that has to be addressed in the same way that any other issue effecting Australian citizens on such a scale must be addressed.
But Croc, just blaming the white man, shouting that its 'our land', etc etc is not going to get your people out of the welfare cycle, stop them dying from diseases we havent seen in urban centres in any great numbers since the 50s, stop them beating their women, killing themselves and their people in car wrecks, get them to attend school....the list sadly just goes on and on.

The fact is it is nearly 2005, and we all have to live together as much as some people on both sides of this debate wish that were not so. Putting your head in the sand, denying the obvious and just blaming 'whitey' for everything will ensure people will still be having this debate in 50 years time.

Spot on there. But one thing though- when you look at the USA and Canada with their aboriginal (Native American/First Nations and Inuit) populations, the Native American groups in the USA are recognised as "sovereign dependent nations" meaning they are essentially autonomous units, while in Canada land claims have formed the basis for aboriginal self-government (hence Nunavut). Do you think that Australian Aboriginies will be any different in that particular respect? Is there a genuine, historic basis for self-determination as there is in the USA and Canada?

 

[UNIT]

Mate, if thats what its gonna take to get this thing moving forward then why not.

 

[crocodileman]

Clark,Bropho and Mansell(hell I am more Aboriginal than Mansell) have reeled you in hook line and sinker.While living in Darwin I used to drive past the ATSIC offices in Casuarina it looked like a Landcruiser dealership brand new $70,000 Landcruisers every six months or so.
That would mean over 2 milion per year on cars that never went further than Humpty Doo
Waste of money? Well it could have gone to settlements that have nothing but the ATSIC elite needed those brand new Landcruisers more

That's funny, because I live in Darwin, work in Casuarina and I don't see any Aborigines driving 4WD vehicles. And so what if they did. Don't white bureaucrats drive new motor vehicles? Wouldn't that money be better spent in that department on people in need?

Do you honestly believe those quangos didn't have procedures and budgets stipulating what the money could and couldn't be spent on? Apart from a couple of isolated incidents, I can think of no other criminal charges being laid against aborigines for misappropriating funds, can you?

So you agree these people mainly live in Third World conditions and have little or no access to services or health care. So what is your solution? Cut their funding!! Well done loser - you're a friggin genius!

I'll have to give Amnesty, Care, World Vision and many other organisations that work in Third World countries and tell them your new way of helping underprivileged - Give 'em othing and this will empower them! Should make for interesting funerals!

Idiot!

 

[crocodileman]

Clearly WA Roo, to say that you're more aboriginal than Mansell shows that you don't know the first thing about Aborigines or how they are even identified as such. Go away redneck - go and shoot your roos.

 

[UNIT]

Croc you truly are an angry and bitter man. Dont you understand that by using suggestions such as "Go away redneck - go and shoot your roos." makes you not better than someone who comes on here and cracks jokes about Aboriginals. Stick to debating the issues and dont get personal.

And where have i in any of my posts thusfar called for a stopping of Commenwealth funding to Aboriginal programmes?. I simply believe there needs to be a new approach to the way exisiting funding is distributed, because (and you can continue to deny it if you wish) there is a select percentage that is enjoying life at the expense of the taxpayer and the poor buggers they profess to represent. Quite simply, and im assuming you are Aboriginal Croc, your people are not getting value for money. And you cannot continue to lay the blame for that on the doorstep of the white man. The money is there, if it does not reach those that need it then the question needs to be asked why? I believe that is all i am doing.

 

[crocodileman]

Honestly Croc, can u honestly say that there isnt enough money being thrown at Aboriginal issues in this country? We could throw the entire budget at it and i doubt it would make any difference.

There's your evidence that you advocate a reduction in spending on Aboriginal affairs. Pretty clear, really. According to you, problems in Aboriginal communities doesn't need money to address them, just replace a few black bureaucrats and it will be fine.

Why do you assume that I am an Aborigine? No, I am not an Aborigine, just your every day 4th generation Australian who is ashamed at the way governments and my descendants treated Aborigines since white settlement.

You are instructing me to debate the issue, yet several posts ago, you brought up the issue of Aboriginal juveniles allegedly raping an elderly woman in WA. So who is personalising the issues?

 

[Birdy]

Why do you assume that I am an Aborigine? No, I am not an Aborigine, just your every day 4th generation Australian who is ashamed at the way governments and my descendants treated Aborigines since white settlement.

Well good for you, however I don't feel any guilt for something my ancestors did generations ago to the ancestors of our present day aboriginies. My ancestors didn't even want to come here, they were brought here as convicts.

There have been plenty of attrocities committed throughout history so how far back should we take this nonsense? There will never be any reconciliation while we choose to keep living in the past.

 

[WA ROO]

Clearly WA Roo, to say that you're more aboriginal than Mansell shows that you don't know the first thing about Aborigines or how they are even identified as such. Go away redneck - go and shoot your roos.

1/8th Aboriginal which makes me a hell of a lot more Aboriginal than Mr Mansell
So am i still a redneck?
I never said cut funding to Aboriginal communities i just pointed out that MILLIONS of dollars were not getting to the places it is needed because the elite of ATSIC were creaming it off for themselves
Now pack up your bleeding heart and drive out to somewhere like Jigalong and ask where did several BILLIONS of dollars go because places like this saw SFA

 

[UNIT]

Quote:

There's your evidence that you advocate a reduction in spending on Aboriginal affairs. Pretty clear, really. According to you, problems in Aboriginal communities doesn't need money to address them, just replace a few black bureaucrats and it will be fine.

Yeah thats what im saying. But noi do not advocate cutting one cent from the present budgets of anyone. In fact id increase it if anything if it can be shown that money is needed in a certain area for a certain project or to fund a certain service etc. I just dont agree with the blank cheque mentality of handing out cash willy nilly to bueracracies and just assuming its going to trickle its way down to those in need.
And as for your statement of being ashamed, fair enough. I believe however that its better to feel empathy towards the present generations and work towards improving the quality of life for those that are suffering today, rather than saying (which you are) that all white people by virtue of their ancestory are guilty of whatever allegations Aborigines want to level at them (Genocide, Stolen Generations, abuse etc) and should therefore be liable and take ownership of blame?. Thats just nuts.