pavlich !?!?!?

[Kenny_01]

Originally posted by jod23


I dont think Pavlich is better right now. I think they are both playing really well. Its like saying who is better between McLeod and Voss...Voss had a slightly better season but you cant really give a clear answer as to who the better player really is.

Jakovich is back in really good form but is still a long way from his 92 through 95 best. Back then he was awesome and Pavlich will have to become the greatest player of all time to reach those sorts of heights.

Pavlich probably will captain a side but that doesnt mean he is a better leader than Jakovich. I take it you too were quite shocked when Jako was overlooked, as were we all...that was not his fault. He was ready and still is. But the club decided to go down a different path.

Pavlich is a longer kick but that doesnt make him any better of a player, Dew can kick the ball a mile but does that make him better than Cousins? No. Pavlich is probably more accurate with his kicking but Jakovich is no slouch.

Pavlich is probably more creative because that is how he plays the game. Pavlich looks to run from defence and create play. Jako used to be like that, i remember in the 94 GF when he came charging up from CHB straight through a pack collected the ball, tucked it under his arms and charged through the middle of the ground. He was awesome. But nowadays he is more like a rock in defence. He stops offensive attacks dead, but doesnt look to counter, rather give off a handpass to a Matera, Hunter, Green etc.. But because Pavlich tries to be more creative doesnt mean he is a better player, Jako and Pavlich both stopped the opponents attack, Jako gives it to someone else, Pavlich has a run.

Definitely not even in reading the play. Jako is the master, ive being watching him for 10 or so years and he reads the play extremely well, knows where its going, knows when to zone off. A few people get mistaken that Jako is loose in the back half when he takes an uncontested chest mark...he isnt loose, he just knew where the ball was going and zoned off accordingly.

Look Pavlich is a good young player but one AA guernsey doesnt make him better than one of the greats of the game. It's actually kind of an insult to Jakovich.

Fair summary Jod. Jako has been the better player. No doubt about it. But if a side was playing tomorrow and you had to pick one of them, which one would you pick? (Well I know which one you would pick ). Pavlich is a match winner; he is more effective and more versatile. As good as Jako is, he is not a watch winner. He might have been back in 92 to 95, but that was then, this is now. I used to love Jako. Don't get we wrong, he was/is still one of the best CHB's around. What he does is take out one of the best players from the opposition. He is defensively minded. While Pavlich does his job on someone (albeit not as well), he is very much offensively minded as well. Jako is not. Pavlich runs forward and provides another avenue for goal. He wins a lot of the ball...

So I agree Jakovich is better at stopping his direct opponent. He is better at tackling, spoiling etc. However, Pavlich would have more influence on a game... simply by his attacking game style. After all, that is why he was AA ahead of Jako.

Thoughts?

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by Kenny_01


Fair summary Jod. Jako has been the better player. No doubt about it. But if a side was playing tomorrow and you had to pick one of them, which one would you pick? (Well I know which one you would pick ). Pavlich is a match winner; he is more effective and more versatile. As good as Jako is, he is not a watch winner. He might have been back in 92 to 95, but that was then, this is now. I used to love Jako. Don't get we wrong, he was/is still one of the best CHB's around. What he does is take out one of the best players from the opposition. He is defensively minded. While Pavlich does his job on someone (albeit not as well), he is very much offensively minded as well. Jako is not. Pavlich runs forward and provides another avenue for goal. He wins a lot of the ball...

So I agree Jakovich is better at stopping his direct opponent. He is better at tackling, spoiling etc. However, Pavlich would have more influence on a game... simply by his attacking game style. After all, that is why he was AA ahead of Jako.

Thoughts?

I think this is a reflection on our two sides...Jakovich doesnt need to be a matchwinner (even though if you saw him in round 17, you wouldnt be saying he isnt a matchwinner) because we have guys like Cousins, Gardiner, Kerr, Judd, both Matera's, Wirrpunda etc whereas Pavlich is probably your best player with respect to Hase and Bell.

Pavlich may be more versatile but he is no way more effective than Jakovich. I think its confusing because Pavlich isnt really a CHB. He was a forward in his early days then he played back and forwards, he has runs through the middle of the ground whereas Jakovich was, is and always will be a CHB. Its like comparing apples to oranges, they are totally different players IMO.

Right now Pavlich is a good young player, if he continues to back this up every year and starts to consistently play at CHB then i will have a real look at him in a few years.

But Jakovich is a legend of the game, one of the greatest CHB's ever and was touted as THE best ever before the knee. 4 times B&F winner in a dominating 90's finals team. 2 time premiership player. Bit hard to compare the two.

 

[Portia]

Originally posted by Kenny_01
Your arrogance amazes me, Porthos.

OK,

I don't know if Pavlich deserved to be AA full back, but one thing he did fantastically this year was kick ins and rebounding. The amount of times he thumped them 65m directly to a teammate's advantage was great to watch.

And were most of them marked by a Freo player, or did they come to ground from a contest, leaving the work to Freo runners to get the ball in a safe possession or forward?

In any case, you've explained the stat much the same way I did. When kicking in, he'll go long by default.

 

[Z_K]

Originally posted by Kenny_01




Creativeness/ setting up play- Pavlich by 10 times the length of Basil Zemplis's nose.

Stupid, stupid comment.

Jakovich gets pulled away from the corridor, and certain spots on the ground to limit his chance of setting up play.

When we played WC this year, Morrell, (who actually beat him both times BTW) was under instruction to effectively tag Jakovich, and ensure he didn't get mnay opportunities to run and create. I reckon this happens very often.

I would take Pavlich right now obviously, but I do doubt that by the time Pavlich hangs up the boots, he will be viewed as a better player.

Anyone who beats Carey more than a few times is a freak. Carey would have ripped Pavlich so far aprt he would have had a breakdown, and spent the rest of his life in the foetal position sucking his thumb.

 

[Kenny_01]

Originally posted by Porthos
OK,

And were most of them marked by a Freo player, or did they come to ground from a contest, leaving the work to Freo runners to get the ball in a safe possession or forward?

In any case, you've explained the stat much the same way I did. When kicking in, he'll go long by default.

They were marked by a Freo player without the opposition touching the ball/ making a contest.

Seeing as I watch Freo closely every week, and pay particular interest to Pavlich's game, I can safely say his kicking out is impressive.

I do admit he has made the odd blunder, and then kicks long the next two or three kickouts, but usually his kicking in is real good.

 

[Kenny_01]

Originally posted by NorthBhoy


Stupid, stupid comment.

Jakovich gets pulled away from the corridor, and certain spots on the ground to limit his chance of setting up play.

When we played WC this year, Morrell, (who actually beat him both times BTW) was under instruction to effectively tag Jakovich, and ensure he didn't get mnay opportunities to run and create. I reckon this happens very often.

I would take Pavlich right now obviously, but I do doubt that by the time Pavlich hangs up the boots, he will be viewed as a better player.

Anyone who beats Carey more than a few times is a freak. Carey would have ripped Pavlich so far aprt he would have had a breakdown, and spent the rest of his life in the foetal position sucking his thumb.

So you think Jako is more creative and would set up the play up more than Pavlich? Pavlich would be in the top 2 at this, along with Leppitsch. That's why he was All Australian. I am not saying Jako is bad at it, but Pavlich is better.

 

[Kenny_01]

Originally posted by jod23


I think this is a reflection on our two sides...Jakovich doesnt need to be a matchwinner (even though if you saw him in round 17, you wouldnt be saying he isnt a matchwinner) because we have guys like Cousins, Gardiner, Kerr, Judd, both Matera's, Wirrpunda etc whereas Pavlich is probably your best player with respect to Hase and Bell.

Pavlich may be more versatile but he is no way more effective than Jakovich. I think its confusing because Pavlich isnt really a CHB. He was a forward in his early days then he played back and forwards, he has runs through the middle of the ground whereas Jakovich was, is and always will be a CHB. Its like comparing apples to oranges, they are totally different players IMO.

Right now Pavlich is a good young player, if he continues to back this up every year and starts to consistently play at CHB then i will have a real look at him in a few years.

But Jakovich is a legend of the game, one of the greatest CHB's ever and was touted as THE best ever before the knee. 4 times B&F winner in a dominating 90's finals team. 2 time premiership player. Bit hard to compare the two.

Yes, I saw the game against Collingwood, and yes, Jako was great. Did you happen to watch the game the previous week?

I don't think Pavlich will end up playing in defence either. He is far more effective when he can attack. So you're right, its not a good idea comparing the two. Jako is probably primarily a stopper while Pavlich is the opposite.

Jod, once again... I am not comparing their careers. Obviously Jako's has been atleast 10 times better. I am arguing who would be more useful to a side today.

 

[Z_K]

Originally posted by Kenny_01


So you think Jako is more creative and would set up the play up more than Pavlich? Pavlich would be in the top 2 at this, along with Leppitsch. That's why he was All Australian. I am not saying Jako is bad at it, but Pavlich is better.

Yes, that is what I think.

Pavlich might have more rebounds from the back 50, but so what? Long racking kicks to a pack isn't creative, and neither does it really set up play.

Jackovich runs lines, breaks tackles, uses handballs, and will break up the opposition. West Caost would have score 100's of goals that would have been a result of a play started by Jakovich in the back half, that moved into the F50 with ease, because of the mna delkivering the footy.

Remember also, that you originally stated that he was 10 times better at this than Jakovich.

Silly.

 

[Kenny_01]

Originally posted by NorthBhoy


Yes, that is what I think.

Pavlich might have more rebounds from the back 50, but so what? Long racking kicks to a pack isn't creative, and neither does it really set up play.

Jackovich runs lines, breaks tackles, uses handballs, and will break up the opposition. West Caost would have score 100's of goals that would have been a result of a play started by Jakovich in the back half, that moved into the F50 with ease, because of the mna delkivering the footy.

Remember also, that you originally stated that he was 10 times better at this than Jakovich.

Silly.

No I didn't. I said the difference was 10 times the length of Basil Zemplis's nose

Long raking kicks to packs? You obviously don't watch many Freo games. Even WC supporters would acknowledge that Jako has been known to 'blaze away' in the past, and would probably agree on the fact that Pavlich is more creative and sets up the play more. That is Pavlich's strength. That is why he was selected in the AA team. Not for his great full back skills.

 

[FIGJAM]

Originally posted by windyhill
Old presti, it would help this blokes cause no end if he could attack once in a while...

It would help the opposition's cause greatly John, if Prestigiacomo's direct opponent could attack once in a while also.

Keep underestimating him. He very, very rarely gets beaten and he scalps AA CHFs and FFs constantly!

I would love him to run out of defence like Hay or Fletcher, but he is still an excellent player.

 

[Z_K]

Originally posted by Kenny_01


No I didn't. I said the difference was 10 times the length of Basil Zemplis's nose

Long raking kicks to packs? You obviously don't watch many Freo games. Even WC supporters would acknowledge that Jako has been known to 'blaze away' in the past, and would probably agree on the fact that Pavlich is more creative and sets up the play more. That is Pavlich's strength. That is why he was selected in the AA team. Not for his great full back skills.

I suppose you would have to play FB first. I watched him play on a gun forward, live, once this year, and Richardson made a fool of him. His "creativity" out of defence was pretty sh1tfull also.

He is a gun though. No doubt.

WTF isn;t he played at CHF?

 

[Kenny_01]

Originally posted by NorthBhoy


I suppose you would have to play FB first. I watched him play on a gun forward, live, once this year, and Richardson made a fool of him. His "creativity" out of defence was pretty sh1tfull also.

He is a gun though. No doubt.

WTF isn;t he played at CHF?

Unfortunatly, you watched the one game where Pavlich was truly pathetic (even Freo fans will admit it). That was his worst game in 3 years by a long long way. He got slaughtered by Richo, turned the ball over nearly everytime he touched it and as soon as he went into the middle, Parker got injured so he had to go back on Richo.

 

[Contra Mundum]

Pav Schmav

Pav is a great player - but he got towelled by Richardson in that game against the Tiges - that was a shocker!

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by Kenny_01


Yes, I saw the game against Collingwood, and yes, Jako was great. Did you happen to watch the game the previous week?

I don't think Pavlich will end up playing in defence either. He is far more effective when he can attack. So you're right, its not a good idea comparing the two. Jako is probably primarily a stopper while Pavlich is the opposite.

Jod, once again... I am not comparing their careers. Obviously Jako's has been atleast 10 times better. I am arguing who would be more useful to a side today.

More useful in a side today....is that what your arguing. Well if it's for one game then you would take Jakovich, he is the better player and a pure CHB. But if you choosing based on the fact that he would be at your club for the next 10 years then obviously Pavlich because he only 21 compared to Jako who i think is 29.

But this applies to everything...if WC were in the GF and i could take Haselby or Voss into my side for a one off game, i would take Voss...if i was choosing for the rest of there careers i would take Haselby because you would get much longer service from him.

Anyways im stopping comparing because you cant compare a legend of the game with an upstart

 

[Kenny_01]

Originally posted by jod23


More useful in a side today....is that what your arguing. Well if it's for one game then you would take Jakovich, he is the better player and a pure CHB. But if you choosing based on the fact that he would be at your club for the next 10 years then obviously Pavlich because he only 21 compared to Jako who i think is 29.

But this applies to everything...if WC were in the GF and i could take Haselby or Voss into my side for a one off game, i would take Voss...if i was choosing for the rest of there careers i would take Haselby because you would get much longer service from him.

Anyways im stopping comparing because you cant compare a legend of the game with an upstart

Hehe

But if I went into a must win game tomorrow with the choice of Pavlich and Jako, I would take Pavlich. After all, he was the one that made the AA team

Anyway, lets agree to disagree because obviously you rate Jako higher than Pav, and vice versa for me (not career wise, current usefulness wise)

And by the way, Pav is 20

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by Kenny_01


Hehe

But if I went into a must win game tomorrow with the choice of Pavlich and Jako, I would take Pavlich. After all, he was the one that made the AA team

Anyway, lets agree to disagree because obviously you rate Jako higher than Pav, and vice versa for me (not career wise, current usefulness wise)

And by the way, Pav is 20

Your on late???

Can Pavlich win his first B&F??? Needs 4 of those to contend

 

[Kenny_01]

Originally posted by jod23


Your on late???

Can Pavlich win his first B&F??? Needs 4 of those to contend

Got a major uni assignent due tomorrow and only starting it now

Think I will be up all night.

Anyway, regarding the B & F, Pavlich has been the Dockers best or 2nd best on atleast 5 occasions (Richmond, Carlton, West Coast, Essendon, Adelaide). And was one of Freo's top 4 or 5 players in about anothr 5 games. He will come close. I have no idea which one of Bell, Hasleby, Pavlich or Simmonds will win it. It will be close, that is for sure.

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by Kenny_01


Got a major uni assignent due tomorrow and only starting it now

Think I will be up all night.

Anyway, regarding the B & F, Pavlich has been the Dockers best or 2nd best on atleast 5 occasions (Richmond, Carlton, West Coast, Essendon, Adelaide). And was one of Freo's top 4 or 5 players in about anothr 5 games. He will come close. I have no idea which one of Bell, Hasleby, Pavlich or Simmonds will win it. It will be close, that is for sure.

I have a late shift tomorrow so no need for me to be in bed

I think it will be Bell or Hasleby...didnt Bell win it last year? Did Bell win one at North?

 

[Kenny_01]

Yep, he got back to back B&F's. In 2000 for Kangaroos, 2001 for Dockers.

Yeah I too think it is out of Bell and Hasleby.

1. Hasleby
2. Bell
3. Pavlich
4. Simmonds

It will be close though.

 

[jod23]

Originally posted by Kenny_01
Yep, he got back to back B&F's. In 2000 for Kangaroos, 2001 for Dockers.

Yeah I too think it is out of Bell and Hasleby.

1. Hasleby
2. Bell
3. Pavlich
4. Simmonds

It will be close though.

I'd like to see Simmonds get up...would be a fairy tale finish I gotta go get started on the serious part of the awards on the West Coast Forum...

 

[Kenny_01]

A lot of people are tipping Simmonds to win. I don't know if he will.

When is this countdown starting?

 

[Kenny_01]

Oh, it has started already

 

[sabre_ac]

Granted simmonds any other year would have won our best and fairest.
But fact remains Bell is the leading possession winner of the league.
Pavlich recieved all Australian honours.
And haselby was ranked one of the top midifielders.

Simmonds 4ht in my opinion
Bell
Pavlich
Haselby
Simmonds

 

[hawkfan5]

Fletcher is still the best full back in my opinion.

 

[FreoRules]

Fletcher would be if he wa splaying every week but his reckless acts are starting to wear thin and if he is good as everyone says then he has cost them very badly this year.

The same logic applies to Barry Hall who I believe is better than Neitz but silly mistakes cost him as well.