Premiership circle upgrade

[TiAn_]

You're exactly right about the first part in bold. Everything after that was superfluous.

Superfluous to what, exactly?

 

[Sentinel]

Superfluous to what, exactly?

The fact that the new Premiership Circle ranking exists as a membership tier is not the real issue. As noted, if it was released as an option prior to the season, or ahead of next season, then I don't think anyone would be complaining as it is a commercial decision and everyone still has the right to chose yes or no to the option given they know their position if they do or do not.

The problem is that people have forked out their hard earned for a social club membership assuming that this gives them the highest access available to a GF ticket (priority 1), and now this has been relegated after the fact. Assuming also that now social club members have a greater chance of a standing room only ticket, or a worse ticket, given 100% of the Premiership Circle get the top priority seats. If these are 2000 additional GF tickets which have absolutely no impact on the social club allocation (eg chances of getting a good seat or having to stand), then fair play and carry on, but this doesn't seem to be the case given SC allocation is listed now as priority 2.

It puts the clubs commercial interests well and truly ahead of the loyal members and should not happen.

 

[Ant_]

So here's a question for Ant_ - is the BF sponsorship classified as a coterie group? Would that mean we could buy one or more GF seats through the Premiership Circle? If so, how would you manage the process - same as always (random selection)? Obviously the winner would have to stump up the money for the seat.

Yes it's a coterie group.

However as we exclude the gameday components i.e entry and the seating/dinner room, I'm not sure we'd qualify.

I can ask the question

 

[Bont2Bruce]

Then upgrade. Thats the whole point of it.

Not sure I see this as a big deal if anything it makes sense.

Not sure people here understand how the modern game is run, and every club is run. You may not like it but thats just the way it is.

It is shifting the goal posts mid-season that irks the most.

Whether I understand or not "how the modern game is run" (what a load of BS spin-doctoring that is) is totally removed from whether I am entitled to have an opinion about how it makes me feel.

Your lack of sensitivity is noted. And that is the biggest problem for the club administration in all of this.

 

[_Mike_]

What people in here should understand is the the Western Bulldogs have changed the conditions of an existing service and contract, and are applying those retrospectively to existing contracts (memberships) which under the Australian Consumer Law, you can not do.

I have written a logical email to the Membership department highlighting the implied conditions of the EJ Whitten Social Club that it was a condition that at the time it was sold, provided access to reserved seating.

Under Consumer Law, and Contract Law the implied term becomes part of the contract between the supplier and consumer.

Anyway, this is what I've written and I'll see what comes back...


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I am a member of the Western Bulldogs FC with the EJ Whitten Social Club add-on and It is very disappointing to see changes applied retrospectively to a membership addon that when purchased included the following provision for social club add-on

"To avoid disappointment should the Western Bulldogs participate in the 2016 Toyota AFL Grand Final, the Club recommends upgrading to the EJ Whitten Social Club, or to guarantee access to a reserved seat"

With the introduction of the new Charles Sutton Premiership Circle the terms of the 2016 social club addon have now been changed as a result to which is being applied retrospectively to the service which was sold under different conditions and implied that originally social club members will have access to a reserved seat. Social club members are no longer guaranteed access to a reserved seat and this is a change to the conditions of the service which the consumer has no ability to negotiate once the initial package had been sold.

This is classed as statutory unconscionable conduct covered by section 22 of the Australian Consumer Law

- Section 22 (1) (K): the indicia of unconscionable conduct in ACL s22 in that it is unconscionable for a supplier to vary unilaterally a term or condition of a contract between the supplier and consumer for the supply of goods or service.

Under the Australian consumer law the conduct of the Western Bulldogs also falls under false and misleading representation - covered under section 29 of the ACL that prohibits a person or company in trade from making false and misleading representation that the services are of a particular standard.

Section 29 (1) (a) - a person or corporation is prohibited in trade or commerce from making false and misleading representations about the standard, quality, grade or value of goods and services where the significance of the conduct or the detriment that the relevant consumer might suffer as a result of the false and misleading representation to which the consumer is to be protected from

Case law for the establishment of standards was held by the Court in Ducret v Chaundhary [1987]

In Summary, a supplier cannot unilaterally change the terms of a service after the contract has been agreed and consideration paid by the party. I do hope that the Western Bulldogs Membership department takes this matter seriously as it can be seen by the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission as conduct which is misleading and deceptive, the Company has made false and misleading representations about it's product and not only that, conducted themselves prohibited under Section 22 of the ACL for statutory unconscionable conduct.

The Charles Sutton uplift should have been implemented either before or after the season, not once it had started but legally you cannot change the terms of a contract once it has been accepted unless agreed by both parties which has not happened in this case.

 

[Dogs 13]

Whilst it should have been announced at least 6 weeks ago before the season started, there are too many bleeding hearts in here. No one in the Social Club was guaranteed a seat at a GF anyway. People now have the opportunity to guarantee themselves a seat at a Bulldogs GF by paying an extra $100. How has anyone been hard done by, really?

One point worth making: How does anyone even know if these 2,000 seats are coming out of the 10,000 social club allocated tickets or the 5,000 left over for other purposes? If it's out of the other 5,000, then this has had absolutely no impact on any social club member's likelihood of obtaining a seat.

We can't have a completely egalitarian system, otherwise there'd be no social club membership in the first place, as I'm sure some people can't afford that. There would be one stock standard membership package for everybody. But some people can afford to contribute more to the club in return for better seats, more access, etc. If the club can make an extra $200,000 from membership revenue, by this one idea, that's great! I don't want to follow a battling club and if the club can lean on those members that have the resources to contribute more to the club, it should.

No, at least 6 weeks before the season started doesn't cut it either. This level of membership needed to be in the initial membership offerings way back in September. Bulldogs for Life (which I'm sure most of you are) should have been given this option back then instead of just letting our current package roll over:
"your loyalty to the Club through your membership is greatly appreciated. Thank you for your continued support.
Please find below your personalised details for your 2016
membership package.

As a Bulldog for Life member, no action is required and your 2016 membership is already set up to roll over on October 28. If you would like to make changes to your membership or should you wish to opt out of the Bulldog for Life automatic roll over, please call our Membership team on 1300 46 36 47. Click here for Terms & Conditions"

This initiative has been ill considered and should never have been introduced mid season.

 

[ivan rassmussen]

Then upgrade. Thats the whole point of it.

Not sure I see this as a big deal if anything it makes sense.

Not sure people here understand how the modern game is run, and every club is run. You may not like it but thats just the way it is.

Maybe people can't afford the upgrade, like me sunshine. THAT's the point. If I was presented with this scenario BEFORE I forked out for this season, I would have DOWNGRADED.

I understand how the game is run, do you understand people have limited finances?

 

[marshmallow]

A very disappointing show of bad faith by the club. How is anyone going to take them for their word in future?

I am on a low income but have Social Club memberships for me and my 8 year old boys. I can only put one boy at a time on my shoulders.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

A very disappointing show of bad faith by the club. How is anyone going to take them for their word in future?

I am on a low income but have Social Club memberships for me and my 8 year old boys. I can only put one boy at a time on my shoulders.

I was considering exactly the same scenario with my boys.

 

[marshmallow]

Maybe let's get Slater & Gordon to launch a class action...

 

[ivan rassmussen]

No, at least 6 weeks before the season started doesn't cut it either. This level of membership needed to be in the initial membership offerings way back in September. Bulldogs for Life (which I'm sure most of you are) should have been given this option back then instead of just letting our current package roll over.

This initiative has been ill considered and should never have been introduced mid season.

Exactly, our Bulldogs for Life Silver Social Club package has been downgraded, AFTER they've taken 7 monthly instalments. Nice work, club.

 

[_Mike_]

As social club members, you need to contact the club and remonstrate this unfair contract change as it is not what YOU agreed and paid for.. I dont think anyone here would see it a problem if they had of made the changes BEFORE the 2016 membership packages were announced, but as my point the club is in breach of several sections of the ACL based on what they've now done.

Surely they would have had legal input understanding the implications of making changes to existing membership conditions..

 

[ivan rassmussen]

Whilst it should have been announced at least 6 weeks ago before the season started, there are too many bleeding hearts in here. No one in the Social Club was guaranteed a seat at a GF anyway. People now have the opportunity to guarantee themselves a seat at a Bulldogs GF by paying an extra $100. How has anyone been hard done by, really?

Are you going to pay the $300 upgrade for my memberships.

Did you read what you wrote. Ufck off.

 

[_Mike_]

I'll give them 2 business days to respond as per their email otherwise I will contact the ACCC on this one.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

"To avoid disappointment should the Western Bulldogs participate in the 2016 Toyota AFL Grand Final, the Club recommends upgrading to the EJ Whitten Social Club, or to guarantee access to a reserved seat"

I went back to look through my emails and see if I could find anything along these lines, but could not.

I've been a social club member since I think 2009 though, so doubt that I received anything recently from the club encouraging me to upgrade to the social club. They did mistakenly invite me to upgrade to the social club during mid-2015, bizarrely and I have an apology email from them to this effect.

I looked around the club website membership section today and could not find any wording about "access to a reserved seat", only access a ticket. What I don't know is whether (a) this website wording has always been there or (b) whether they recently changed it in light of the Premiership Circle creation.

I have a low opinion of the club's membership department at the moment and currently suspect the latter.

 

[Martyn_30_]

As social club members, you need to contact the club and remonstrate this unfair contract change as it is not what YOU agreed and paid for.. I dont think anyone here would see it a problem if they had of made the changes BEFORE the 2016 membership packages were announced, but as my point the club is in breach of several sections of the ACL based on what they've now done.

Surely they would have had legal input understanding the implications of making changes to existing membership conditions..

Did it say that social club memberships guaranteed a seat or a ticket? Because if it was only a ticket that's different.

 

[amnesiac]

This is straight up disgusting behaviour by the club and borders on extortion.

It matters less to me as someone who is physically capable of standing for a match, but those with children, are short in height or unfit to stand for 3 hours simply will not see a thing in Standing Room. What people do not necessarily understand about standing room is that you may have sold 1,000 tickets in the area but there will physically be 2,000 due to people wanting to be with their mates, physically not wanting to walk to row ZZ on the top level or simply through corruption. More people than you would want to think get into a Grand Final without a valid ticket.

We are not a Hawthorn or Geelong who regularly experience a Grand Final let alone a Premiership. People use the Social Club as a form of insurance in gaining a Grand Final ticket. At least with the social club you also receive a number of perks such as access to the social club, merchandise, events etc. This Premiership Club gives you one perk, Grand Final access.

Think about the maths for a moment. On the assumption that a team makes a Grand Final once every 9 years (18 teams, 2 grand finalists each year)

You will have paid 9 x $120 for your EJ Whitten Social Club membership + $150 (standing) through $400 (cat 1) for your grand final ticket depending on allocation. Total minimum $1,230 total maximum $1,480

You will have paid 9 x $220 for your Premiership Circle package + $180 (cat 7) through $400 (cat 1) for your grand final ticket depending on allocation. Total minimum $2,160 total maximum $2,380.

For your run of the mill Social Club member who buys their add-on regardless of teams form, this is a very, very bad deal and the club is using emotional blackmail to get you to take it.

 

[Prince Imperial]

"To avoid disappointment should the Western Bulldogs participate in the 2016 Toyota AFL Grand Final, the Club recommends upgrading to the EJ Whitten Social Club, or to guarantee access to a reserved seat"

Mike, where did you see this statement as I'm guessing that the club will seek to rely on the membership terms and conditions on the website that refer only to guaranteed access to a ticket?

http://membership.westernbulldogs.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/2016-Terms-and-Conditions.pdf

 

[_Mike_]

Mike, where did you see this statement as I'm guessing that the club will seek to rely on the membership terms and conditions on the website that refer only to guaranteed access to a ticket?

That can also be considered an unfair term.. Under the ACL s22 which is statutory unconscionable conduct it is unconscionable for a supplier to mislead the consumer through the use of terms implied to unilaterally vary a contract for services which a consumer has no recourse to negotiate.

A Court can strike that term from a contract which unfairly balances the terms in favor of the supplier. Imagine if they'd changed the stance that the social club now does not gurantee access to finals tickets? would that be ok because of the term? No, hardly and the ACCC needs to weigh up to the degree that consumers were misled into purchasing a service which misled one way or another consumers into believing they were getting a service that they are now now.

 

[Sentinel]

Mike, where did you see this statement as I'm guessing that the club will seek to rely on the membership terms and conditions on the website that refer only to guaranteed access to a ticket?

http://membership.westernbulldogs.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/2016-Terms-and-Conditions.pdf

My understanding is that wording has always been 'guaranteed access to a ticket', I haven't seen anywhere exact mention of a seat.

Regardless, the point stands that it is double dipping and members who have signed up to the Social Club in good faith are being screwed by the organisation. Social Club tickets have seemingly been devalued without compensation. Extremely poor form.

 

[marshmallow]

Whether or not a reserved seat was ever promised, the chances of getting stuck with standing room have now increased, which means Social Club membership has been downgraded mid-season.

 

[Bont2Bruce]

Whether or not a reserved seat was ever promised, the chances of getting stuck with standing room have now increased, which means Social Club membership has been downgraded mid-season.

Nail. Head.

 

[_Mike_]

Whether or not a reserved seat was ever promised, the chances of getting stuck with standing room have now increased, which means Social Club membership has been downgraded mid-season.

What is to stop them doing it again, with a Ted Whitten Premiership circle where you have to pay an extra $200 to ensure that those "reserved seats" are not in the nose bleeds of the Southern Stands...

 

[Bont2Bruce]

I'll give them 2 business days to respond as per their email otherwise I will contact the ACCC on this one.

I don't think you have to wait for their right of reply under consumer law.

 

[Sentinel]

What is to stop them doing it again, with a Ted Whitten Premiership circle where you have to pay an extra $200 to ensure that those "reserved seats" are not in the nose bleeds of the Southern Stands...

I think the point is that they are still following the contract in that there are and have never been guarantees on the quality of GF tickets, so technically nothing wrong has been done from this point (ie in term of ACL).

The argument however is that the Social Club members have nonetheless been downgraded, mid-year, from an equal chance at the best 12,000 GF tickets to now being an equal chance at tickets 'rated' 2,000 to 12,000, unless you want to pay $100 to be given rights to the top 2,000 best tickets. So I think they are in the clear from a legal point of view, but it doesn't make it any less of an ordinary move to be screwing the hand that feeds them.