Universal Love Q&A with Tim Lawrence, Lachie's manager - chapter III

[Arcassius]

From Tim -

Hey Tim, I always wondered about this when it came to player management eg: Jerry McGuire styles.. so my question is a pretty simple one: Do you have a client that you would consider your favourite and have you ever had a client say "SHOW ME THE MONEY"?


Hey freo84 !

All of my boys are my equal favourites and play very important roles in my sad, single life. They are all different but as I have mentioned before, they all have personalities I like.

Ha ha well, I guess internally they all want me to show them the money don’t they? But the reality is in our sport, we have strict salary cap rules and we as managers understand clubs actually only have so much money, so whilst we always want (a bit more than) our fair share, we do have to temper expectations also at times. As I have mentioned elsewhere, there are many other things to factor in and consider at negotiation time.

 

[Arcassius]

From Tim -

It's almost like Tim would know the meaning of life, but no one has asked for it yet...


Seppo , my old mate! I had a quick read of all posts before I jumped on this plane to Darwin and I think someone has already mentioned that I have been asked what the meaning of life is and I did reply to it.

But alas, as we get older, our memory does funny things. I can remember word for word that 80’s classic ‘Slice of Heaven’ by New Zealander, Dave Dobbyn and his Herbs and I can remember the scientific names of many Australian reptiles back from my teenage years as a budding herpetologist, but I couldn’t tell you what I had for breakfast 2 days ago nor can I tell you what my answer was in that initial ‘meaning of life’ question.

However, my memory does remember seeing your Instagram post of you and your little fella at his first Freo game a few weeks back - I hope he enjoyed it!

 

[Arcassius]

From Tim -

How much insight do you get as a player manager into what happens at club level. Do your players tend to talk to you about what's happening between closed doors, or is it a managed relationship where they keep things to themselves or tend to talk to close family. Do you get to find out what the game plan or strategies are for a club the coming season? The areas they are working on?

Are there things you can share about Freo in the past (or other clubs) and what sorts of things we were looking to do in terms of game plan - what worked and didn't work?

Where is the game heading, and what sort of players do you think will be the most desirable for teams in the future - the athlete, the natural footballer, the large bodied mid, the monster forward, the small nugget, the pinpoint kicker, the handball expert?

Have you seen the Fyfe BOB video? What are your thoughts on what he had to say? Do you think these kinds of honest insights are an outlier or part of a trend towards breaking the 4th wall and players connecting with fans about their lives? How seriously do players take their brand and legacy.

Will Neale be doing a tell all interview any time soon? Can we organise a fireside chat with Neale at a local pub - drinks on us (we'll behave we promise)

How much leeway do players have in what they can and can't say publically?

What holes do you see in our list at the moment, and which players in the league do you think we should target to fill those gaps?




Yeah we do discuss what happens behind closed doors at the club and sometimes, around game plans and strategy. But I don’t ever divulge this information to anyone as I understand the need for it to be kept confidential, I respect that and I wouldn’t want to abuse the boys trust in me. If I’m honest, I’m probably more interested in what the boys are asked to do and the roles they play moreso than the overall team plan. Now and then I will be made aware of ‘surprise’ team selections before the side is announced publicly but again, I keep it to myself and because we aren’t allowed to bet on anything AFL, there isn’t much for me to gain from it!

I’m trying to wrack my brains thinking of one, Arc but I can’t think of anything. I do remember when Ross tried to turn Balla’s into a midfielder a few preseasons ago... needless to say, Hayden couldn’t get the grasp of it and looking at those preseason games, I think he struggled to push back defensively and loved heading goalward... but after the role he has played for so many seasons, that’s not overly surprising I don’t think!

I like the way Freo is trying to play this season. I don’t for one second pretend I have the understanding or knowledge of Ross or his coaching team but the slow, defensive style I think killed you guys. I have always been staggered (in the past) at how bad the decision making (under pressure) was with the team and how poorly they would execute by foot when under only minor pressure. You turn the ball over and you’re cooked. Plus slow forward entries don’t really give a forward line like Freo’s any hope of scoring. Having said that you need pace to play fast and they have really only been able to start arresting this problem (draft and trading) in the last couple of seasons. Sure, you will get opened up at times by the opposition - like last week - but I do think overall, you are better playing this way as often as practical.

I think if these new anti density rules come in, we will see changes in the types of players who play. At the moment you need to be a ‘footballer’ first and foremost, god under pressure, inside player and able to dispose under immense pressure. If the game opens up, I think we will see speed and space at stoppages, big forwards leading into space again and the ongoing pressure from small forwards. Defenders will need to be agile, to keep up with the leading forwards.

I loved Nat’s interview with Bob. I really think we saw another side to him and he is quite funny isn’t he! But yes, we also saw what makes Fyfey ‘different’ and ultimately, what makes him tick and why he is so good. I think this kind of controlled access (uncontrolled - rumours, whispers) gives great access to supporters, which, is something we as an industry need to keep working towards. I think there is certainly a time for privacy and some no go zones in a players private life but the footy stuff should be shared. I’m sure many of you have a slightly different view on Nat now and in a positive way.

I guess the players brand and legacy - and what it means to them - differs from player to player but it is certainly something we as managers are mindful of. Everyone is different so every players branding is different and our job is to try and work on that, find what the branding is and make the most of it.

By all accounts, Nat is very business savvy and understandably takes his branding very seriously. Lachie probably isn’t quite as full on about it but we discuss it a lot and knock back appearances and deals because they aren’t things that really resonate or suit him.

Ha ha the fireside chat. I honestly have no idea if he would do it or not but as I have mentioned, this off season is a very busy one for him and come the end of the season, football is the last thing he thinks about. Who knows?

The club do obviously give messaging and parameters to the players when they speak publicly. This doesn’t mean they can’t be themselves but for understandable reasons, there are times when there needs to be control and I personally don’t have an issue with that. I know you all want open transparency but we are in a competitive industry, so some things need to remain behind closed doors.

Glaringly - and no surprises here - but you still desperately need a key forward and whilst the backline is generally holding up well, a key defender also. I reckon you need another pressure forward, however, there are a couple of kids developing who could jump into that role. A backup ruckman and ideally I reckon there is an age gap of players, around Lach’s age, so if they could fit that demographic that could be handy longer term too.

And nice try, Arcassius , but I don’t want to create any sort of innuendo naming potential replacements without anything but speculation but I would think WA kids would be being watched very closely.

editor: nice work Tim, managed to say a lot but not specifically answer my best questions i want to know our game plan and who we're targeting this off-season

 

[Pusswah]

From Tim -

Tim, I know there can be no one size fits all answer to this. I'm curious about playing timelines, we have plenty of opinions about "playing da yoof" particularly re: Lyon, as well as players being past it these days, before they're scarcely out of nappies (yeah, I'm getting older and shout at the clouds for playing over my lawn).


With young recruits, what timeline is there for effectiveness from the player? Are clubs bringing players on effectively, quicker than before, do talls really need years and years to develop etc. What are the downsides to the rush to get a twig earning their salary against tonka tough big blokes. I had seen some murmuring about raising the minimum drafting age, if you think it's likely to happen, what impact would that have on recruits and clubs?



On the flip side of the coin, the seasoned veterans. Careers are over in a heartbeat these days compared to the seasoned old silverbacked gorillas that used to play. Is it a forgone conclusion that they're over the hill at 30 (notwithstanding the odd Sandilands an others hanging around a few more years) or can anything change that would allow a longer career (where injuries don't force the issue).



Thanks FreoMonocle for the question and yes, you’re right. There is no ‘one size’ fits all with this answer and that is because, quite simply, when dealing with human beings, no two are exactly the same.

It’s the same with young AFL players.

In a very (somewhat) abbreviated version, I’ll try and explain how something you may have heard talked about before - list profiles - and how it translates into both ‘playing da yoof’ and the veterans you talk about.

Firstly, the most important and encompassing caveat I need to put here is that every player needs to have the talent required to play at AFL level regardless of age or experience. Older players need to be able to physically keep up with the game which a lot of the time, is why they retire. Skills are still there, just the body slows up and can’t keep pace and sometimes injuries, especially of the soft tissue kind, start to kick in. Younger players need most, if not all, the required AFL attributes.

When clubs create a trade/draft strategy over a period of time - often around 5 years - they are trying to crystal ball who will get there and who may not still be there. They could try and factor in age, development of high end draft picks etc and how that may affect other players (in this 5 year window) who currently playing their role. That type of thing. As an example, a couple of years ago, Freo knew they needed to get a developing ruckman (which became Darcy) and potentially they may need a back up ruckman (possibly they go for one this year or maybe Apeness is their answer?) because they knew Sandi was going to be gone within the next couple of years. Anyway, a tick to Brad Lloyd on that.

But they also look at the age profile. See, there has been a lot of research done on past premiership sides (and consistent top 4 sides) and the are correlations in regards to a certain number of players within age groups and corresponding experience (games played) within these successful sides. So clubs model their own lists - going forward - on this profiling.

Now, FreoMonocle , whilst you may get exasperated with ‘da yoof’ playing at times, you need to always be churning a few through. Even the best sides each year, have debutants. See, whilst some young players are pretty AFL ready from the word go (Brayshaw, Cerra) others need sometime in the WAFL to increase their talent and fitness base (Giro, Crowden) but at the end of the day, the greatest playing lessons a young player can have (when they are ready) is playing at the highest level.

See if you don’t play kids, they don’t get experience and at some stage the list manager is going to go “s**t, we have a bunch of kids coming through who are now 20-22 and they have not enough AFL experience” meaning there is now lack of depth within the team and a reliance of older, slowly getting older players. So the coach suddenly starts playing them but they tend to struggle because they have been playing WAFL for 2-4 years and whilst they are WAFL hardened, WAFL ain’t AFL is it. So you need some balance... yep, no doubt the top 4 sides may have a slightly older profile when they hit that fabled ‘premiership’ window, they still need to be blooding younger kids for the future. So it’s a balance of different ages and experiences throughout the list... and of course a balance of players who play certain roles goes on top of this.

If you play a list for the ‘now’ the future will never come. If you play the list for the future, you ain’t gonna win games, supporters leave, players get scarred from ongoing massive losses and coaches get sacked. No one ever wins and if you play for the now, at some stage there is going to be a bloody big fall from grace.

You Freo supporters have recently seen it. Freo was hell bent on top 4 finishes and trying to squeeze the last out of the list, culminating in the 2013 GF and finishing at the top (if not, near to it) in the years after it. We could all see the ‘fall’ was coming and it did, a couple of years ago. There appeared to be deficiencies in the list when it came to types of players (key forwards, key backs, outside run) and there was also far too many older players on borrowed time.

So the fall came. The regeneration started and the older players retired or moved on and now your still climbing your way out of it.... which is fine, it’s just where your at. Could the list have been better balanced so the fall wasn’t as great? Possibly but even doing that differs from club to club and you honestly can’t compare apples with apples on this. Sydney and Geelong are masters at doing it; they are constantly blooding kids and rebuilding the list whilst still still playing finals regularly but that has taken many years of planning and it goes back probably 10+ years to when they started it.

You need groups of players that fit age profiles so you have a group of reliable, experienced, leaders at any given time, especially when the older leaders retire and the new ones come up the ranks.

Hopefully you can see why times can be called on veterans and yes, while there always exceptions on either side of the age bracket, 30seems to be the magical age where players get old and close to their ‘best by’ date. They become shorter term propositions, contract wise because, they can drop off really quickly with the pace of today’s game.

Is there anything that can extend a career? I’m not sure. I think the biggest facet still is wear and tear on the body and whilst, as you mentioned, injuries can sped this up, different roles could also. For instance, an inside midfielder who gets smashed physically each week probably won’t go on for as long as a speedy outside runner who doesn’t get belted constantly.

As I said, it’s hard to be definitive with this answer but I hope that answers your question somewhat?

The current style of footy will finish careers earlier than usual I think (in time) compared to the footy we may start seeing with again next year or in the near future anyway.

This is a ******* outstanding post right here.

Thanks man

 

[Pusswah]

Glaringly - and no surprises here - but you still desperately need a key forward and whilst the backline is generally holding up well, a key defender also. I reckon you need another pressure forward, however, there are a couple of kids developing who could jump into that role. A backup ruckman and ideally I reckon there is an age gap of players, around Lach’s age, so if they could fit that demographic that could be handy longer term too.

Between Hamling and Pearce (admittedly he's just come back and it would be nice to see a longer injury free run), both far from old, i'd have thought we have the key back spots covered, throw in guys like Logue (maybe he's not necessarily a key?) and Duman coming through and we have backup.
Could you elaborate a little?
Thanks

 

[FreoMonocle]

I could catch a years worth of footy related stuff in papers, tv, pay tv etc and be none the wiser.

We are getting some info here, that is a considered opinion rather than biblical truth - but that comes with some inside knowledge in the trade and from a perspective where we usually don't hear it (usually current and past players/coaches/journalists and whotnot), also a macro perspective rather than winnowed from a given club.

Tim. I put to you sir, that I don't owe you a beer, this and other seasons have been gratis and with good intent. But if I have the opportunity to buy you a beer while I'm going to the bar myself, it's the least I can do if you are at one of the Melbourne games for any reason (Geelong?). Alternately, I/we could buy a little thankyou for Arcassius who could share it with you if he had a mind to do so I appreciate your efforts in this too Arcassius.

 

[blockerhall]

Mate. Just an outstanding effort at communicating your love of people and football. Thank you for the magnificent insight.

 

[Arcassius]

From Tim -

Between Hamling and Pearce (admittedly he's just come back and it would be nice to see a longer injury free run), both far from old, i'd have thought we have the key back spots covered, throw in guys like Logue (maybe he's not necessarily a key?) and Duman coming through and we have backup.
Could you elaborate a little? Thanks

I must admit, Pusswah , you’ve made some very valid points here.

Pearce is a lock isn’t he and I think from the word go, he was/is going to be a Star. Won’t lie, I’ve just looked up Hamling's stats and he is about an inch taller than I thought! He isn’t the guy you want on the big, hulking forwards is he with his ability to intercept, rebound and run. I really rate him too.

Duman is only 192cm (forget his weight, he is still young) so I don’t reckon he gives depth to key defenders but certainly is in the mix for those slightly taller, ‘mid sized’ forwards - so that gives the defence department overall depth doesn’t it.

And my next error was forgetting about Logue! A real athlete who has needed development. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on how he is going for Peel?

Yep, I still think another tall would be handy BUT also concede that it may not be as much of a necessity as I first thought, mate.

In my defence, I was trying to give Arc an answer without giving him an answer... (editor: yep, serves you right) and I didn’t research that part of my answer well trying to be a smart ass.

Pusswah 1, Lawrence 0

Well played my friend!!

 

[Pusswah]

Thanks heaps Tim. With those heights, you're probably right about one more being super handy.

Another one that popped into my head in the last week was to ask how much you guys get involved in throwing ideas for deals around when one of your players is looking to move elsewhere?
Do you ever ever go 'well I hear such and such might be looking for opportunities elsewhere and he will fill a need for you guys', or is that kept strictly between the clubs?

 

[tonygeeks]

Hi Tim
This is probably the most interesting thread on BF , besides the ones I have created

If you could manage one player who your not managing now who would it be


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[Mags98]

hi tim, cheers for doing this mate

are players told by the club about who they plan on trying to bring in?


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[Snuffaluphagus]

Q: What is Lachie's plans for next year?

 

[One_Wing]

Q: wtf?

 

[FUS_RO_DAH]

HOW COULD YOU DO US LIKE THIS TIM?!

WE WERE ROOTING FOR YOU

WE WERE ALL ROOTING FOR YOU!

 

[Arcassius]

editor: Sorry, was trawling my emails and I missed one reply from Tim


From Tim -

Hi everyone,


It just occurred to me that I had a couple of questions to answer from a few weeks back! The last one I answered was over a few pints at the Deck Bar in Darwin, watching the Cats roll Sydney; two nights before Freo played Melbourne up there. A combination of frothies, sunshine and the slower NT lifestyle seemed to have affected my memory.


So here are the last couple!



Another one that popped into my head in the last week was to ask how much you guys get involved in throwing ideas for deals around when one of your players is looking to move elsewhere?


Do you ever ever go 'well I hear such and such might be looking for opportunities elsewhere and he will fill a need for you guys', or is that kept strictly between the clubs?”



Pusswah I think it’s hard to definitively say ‘yes’ on every occasion when looking at a scenario such as moving a player from one club to another. However, I do like getting another opinion or angle on things such as this (including any contract negotiation) from JD, Tom Petroro (Stride Boss) and my business partner in SA, Peter Rohde. I just think having another opinion (often from their own experiences) makes sense when looking at any contractual situation. Do I lack confidence or not know what I am doing? Definitely not but at the end of the day, it isn’t my contract; it’s my clients so I need to ensure I have all the information I can to give an informed opinion and yes, we do discuss – when necessary – how we may be able help each other if we know clients are moving around so we have a strategy to try and help not only our clients but the clubs involved also.


Managers and agents are very much involved with the discussions – let’s face it we know what our clients are think well before their club does.




Hi Tim, this is probably the most interesting thread on BF , besides the ones I have created

If you could manage one player who you’re not managing now who would it be



Hi tonygeeks , it sounds like I better read your threads!


That’s a great question. There are probably two of them, actually; Alex Neal-Bullen and Billy Stretch who are both at Melbourne.

Nibbler and Billy both played U16’s at Glenelg when I was there back in 2011 and they are just fantastic young men with great family’s. I don’t see them that often but they always stop for a chat and I enjoy seeing them go well for the Demons.

I remember a couple of years ago, in the off season, Alex was running along Seacliff Beach in Adelaide; that’s my local beach where I frequent often, especially in the warmer months. Anyway I was walking along the beach and Al ran past me, going flat out and really pushing himself physically – as he always does. He didn’t realise it was me of course and I didn’t realise it was him until he had gone past me. There is a jetty at one end of that beach – Brighton Jetty – and he got there turned around and ran back again. When he got close to me he put up a big smile, through gaping breaths said “G’day Timmy” (I would have said something back) and he kept going.

About 20 minutes later, I got a text message from him saying he was sorry he couldn’t stop to talk, hoped I was well and we should catch up for a coffee at some stage. Of course I didn’t for one second think he would stop – in fact I probably would have told him to keep going (I was a coach after all) – and realistically he would have known I didn’t expect him to stop either but it just shows what a great lad he is.

Billy, Alex and Cory Gregson where in the same draft and the same age as each other; Cory and Al went to Sacred Heart in Adelaide together so are pretty close.

It’s a bloody shame Billy finally got into the senior side this year and now has a foot injury; on the flipside it’s great to see Alex finally playing well each week, as we always knew he could.




Hi tim, cheers for doing this mate. Are players told by the club about who they plan on trying to bring in?



Hi Mags98 ; it’s my pleasure.

I can’t say yes or no to this question. As you will have picked up from earlier, often list strategy – including types of players the club hopes to attract – is shared with older, established players but not always names.

I do know at times, some senior players at the club – often the leadership group – may be asked how they feel about bringing in a certain player; especially if this player may have had a somewhat ‘colourful’ past. Team unity and harmony is important so you don’t ever want to upset the apple cart so to speak.

I guess there are times when a playing group may know of a certain player who may be crossing over to them but I reckon, most of the time, it is through contacts and connections the players have themselves rather than from the club.

When you think about it, not often would there not be a player who was drafted in the same year, was in an academy together, played at the same TAC Cup or state league club etc as the player rumoured to be joining them, so they often just ask!

The other thing that can happen is of a player is looking to join a club, he may confidentially ask a player from the club (obviously a trusted friend from a past life) what the club is like, to help with their decision making process.

A lot of this stuff is pretty private (for a number of reasons) but I guess there is always ‘someone that knows’ a bit more than anyone else, floating around.

 

[Dump Truck]

Hey Tim.
Can you pass on to Lach that if he stays I'll let him pat my puppy and I'll buy him a coffee from the cafe of his choice.

 

[freo_leo29]

Time for round 4 I think

 

[jedi mind tricks]

I think this thread should be locked

Catch ya later Tim

 

[yoong]

Can I suggest we let Arc/Tim make the call on this one?
The Q&A is never specifically about Neale anyway. He does provide valuable insights into how players/clubs/manager works. If Tim is comfortable continue doing this, i don’t see a problem personally.

 

[Steinfreo]

I wonder if there were any hints in these cringy threads?

 

[Arcassius]

I wonder if there were any hints in these cringy threads?

There have been lots of hints throughout that give you a sense of what happens behind closed doors. Cringy or not, Tim has never been apologetic in it being his opinion and answering questions (or not) as he sees fit.

I did ask him before the Lachie stuff fully kicked in if he'd be open to unpacking the whole affair (within reason) once the dust settles. It might happen, it might not - but I think if he did, it might be interesting

 

[yakka man]

There have been lots of hints throughout that give you a sense of what happens behind closed doors. Cringy or not, Tim has never been apologetic in it being his opinion and answering questions (or not) as he sees fit.

I did ask him before the Lachie stuff fully kicked in if he'd be open to unpacking the whole affair (within reason) once the dust settles. It might happen, it might not - but I think if he did, it might be interesting

Hell yeah it would.

 

[freo_leo29]

Yeah we definitely need Chapter IV - The Betrayal

Altho we got Hogan out of it so maybe "Chapter IV - A New Hope" fits here

 

[Arcassius]

Yeah we definitely need Chapter IV - The Betrayal

Altho we got Hogan out of it so maybe "Chapter IV - A New Hope" fits here

I think all things said and done - Tim and Neale would be happy that they leave the club in a better position overall for it. I'm sad that he's left, but that's life

 

[tonygeeks]

I think all things said and done - Tim and Neale would be happy that they leave the club in a better position overall for it. I'm sad that he's left, but that's life

Ah well if this thread is no more I can honestly say it was easily the most interesting one I've read on here and thanks to Tim for the entertaining read


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