Raves..

[Dave]

Originally posted by Bee
You want to define "wowser"?

Hey Bee, that's easy. It's those ornery folk with them "uneducated" opinyuns.

 

[Bee]

Nah, Dave. I thought it was people who didn't want to fry their brains with illegal substances.

 

[PeteLX]

Originally posted by Dave


Five minutes for 4 paragraph's is quick? Don't over-rate yourself


That's obvious. I have little time for people who nominate the opinion of others as "eneducated" when said opinions differ from said nominee and then call for only "educated" responses.

And no, I don't agree with you. I think Grendel was spot on when he said that we have laws to protect those that cannot protect themselves. If you wish to ignore them that's up to you, but you also risk the consequences. If that makes me a wowser so be it.

And what does that have to do with my post?

 

[PeteLX]

Originally posted by Bee


You want to define "wowser"?

Wowser:
A person regarded as obnoxiously puritanical.

Obnoxious:
Very annoying (ie posting stupidly off topic)

Puritanical:
One who lives in accordance with Protestant precepts, especially one who regards pleasure or luxury as sinful.

Interesting eh? Unfortunately not related to topic. Anything relevant to add?

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by PeteLX
And what does that have to do with my post?

Okaaayy. And you claim drugs haven't affected you. Right. Here we go, I'll try to use small words so that you don't get confused.

You posted that people who said a certain thing, that you disagreed with, were voicing an uneducated opinion and later that you welcomed "educated discussion" and voiced the hope that "reactionary" posters wouldn't try to pick you apart, the inference being that anyone who didn't agree with you is "reactionary".

I replied with what I, and most others, would recognise as a sarcastic definition of "educated discussion" as in my experience people who call for "educated discussion" aren't interested in discussion at all but are only interested in hearing from those who agree with them. In other words, frauds.

After a rather sarcastic attempt to imply I didn't read your post I eloborated on what I had said as you admitted to being confused, a state I'm sure you are used to.

So in a nutshell IMO you are full of it. That simple enough for you?

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by Bee
Nah, Dave. I thought it was people who didn't want to fry their brains with illegal substances.

Hey, don't go using words like that Bee, we all know it doesn't matter if something is legal or not, it's all to do with the vibe man.

 

[Michele]

Peter

And you believe the "wowsers" generalise?

..........."US has one of the world's highest prison population".

That couldn't be because the US has one of the highest murder/manslaughter rates in the world, could it?

........... "Did native American Indians not use mind altering drugs to access their spirit world? Did this lead to the destruction of their culture, or did white-gun-toting-oppression do that?

The Indians and other cultures who have traditonally used drugs in some way, still had a tribal or hierachical system that didn't allow or condone abuse. You are comparing 2 entirely different cultures, norms and values to justify your stance on drugs in our society. I am not so sure many Indians "raided" others teepees, stole possessions etc.
You are blurring the social mores of both cultures.

.............."We're just like you, only more experienced and thus, educated. If you choose not to use, at least educate yourself on the actual effects of drugs before condeming people

What a gross and stupid generalisation There has been enough research all over the world stating drugs are really not the beneficial to one's health.

Do I need to speed and run over someone to have an understanding of the message "speed kills". Or drink as much as I can and then see if "Drink Drive, Bloody Idiot" is for real, or a figment of TAC's imagination. (Not to mention, the TAC do have stats on drug-driving. At the moment, the authorities are trying to find a suitable drug test for many drugs that will stand up in court.)

Users are conveniently comparing the use of illegal drugs and the small side effects to say a legal drug - alcohol and the great harm that drug CAN cause. I have not seen any posts that believe binge-drinking or drinking to excess is ok.

Michele

 

[elt]

You really are a grumpy old git aren't you Dave?

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by Michele
The Indians and other cultures who have traditonally used drugs in some way, still had a tribal or hierachical system that didn't allow or condone abuse. You are comparing 2 entirely different cultures, norms and values to justify your stance on drugs in our society. I am not so sure many Indians "raided" others teepees, stole possessions etc.
You are blurring the social mores of both cultures.

Damn, and here I was all set to go a rapin' and a scalpin', all coz the injuns did it so it must be ok.

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by elt
You really are a grumpy old git aren't you Dave?

Mea Culpa Maxima. I don't mind rational discussion by as I've already said, in my experience those who call for eductaed discussion and then claim that only those that agree with them are "educated" are incapable of seeing past their own blinkered pov.

Now bugger off and let me grump!

 

[PeteLX]

Originally posted by Dave


Damn, and here I was all set to go a rapin' and a scalpin', all coz the injuns did it so it must be ok.

Dave, you are entertaining!

But when will you write something relevant?

 

[elt]

Originally posted by Dave
those who call for eductaed discussion

Freudian?

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by PeteLX
Dave, you are entertaining!

Why thank you.

But when will you write something relevant?

Originally posted by PeteLX
Did native American Indians not use mind altering drugs to access their spirit world?

If you wish to claim that because the indians used drugs they are safe it's relevant to point out that they practised many things that we also do not find acceptable today. The fact that they used drugs is irrelevant. Our society is not the same as theirs and the drugs you are talking about are not the same was what they used. Even if they were, the fact that somebody else did something does not make it right. Our society decides what is right and wrong for us.

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by elt
Freudian?

Distracted. I'm reading all about how my company appears to have done the dodge wrt health and safety.

 

[glenferrie boy]

Originally posted by Michele

Users are conveniently comparing the use of illegal drugs and the small side effects to say a legal drug - alcohol and the great harm that drug CAN cause. I have not seen any posts that believe binge-drinking or drinking to excess is ok.

Michele

Michele i agree with most of your points, but i must pick you up on this point again.

Alcohol, smoking and illicit drugs CAN cause great harm.

They are all common in the fact that if they are abused (used irresponsibly) they are all deadly.

We can all talk about whether 1 of this and 1 of that will do anything. But the facts are, when used irresponsibly they all have the potential to cause great damage.

 

[PeteLX]

Originally posted by Michele
Peter

And you believe the "wowsers" generalise?

..........."US has one of the world's highest prison population".

That couldn't be because the US has one of the highest murder/manslaughter rates in the world, could it?

........... "Did native American Indians not use mind altering drugs to access their spirit world? Did this lead to the destruction of their culture, or did white-gun-toting-oppression do that?

The Indians and other cultures who have traditonally used drugs in some way, still had a tribal or hierachical system that didn't allow or condone abuse. You are comparing 2 entirely different cultures, norms and values to justify your stance on drugs in our society. I am not so sure many Indians "raided" others teepees, stole possessions etc.
You are blurring the social mores of both cultures.

.............."We're just like you, only more experienced and thus, educated. If you choose not to use, at least educate yourself on the actual effects of drugs before condeming people

What a gross and stupid generalisation There has been enough research all over the world stating drugs are really not the beneficial to one's health.

Do I need to speed and run over someone to have an understanding of the message "speed kills". Or drink as much as I can and then see if "Drink Drive, Bloody Idiot" is for real, or a figment of TAC's imagination. (Not to mention, the TAC do have stats on drug-driving. At the moment, the authorities are trying to find a suitable drug test for many drugs that will stand up in court.)

Users are conveniently comparing the use of illegal drugs and the small side effects to say a legal drug - alcohol and the great harm that drug CAN cause. I have not seen any posts that believe binge-drinking or drinking to excess is ok.

Michele

Did I say abuse was safe or fun? That excessive use is safe or fun? That any drug in excess is safe or fun? By definition, abuse, excess and bingeing are all dangerous. That's obvious. Don't put words in other peoples mouths.

And regarding "There has been enough research all over the world stating drugs are really not the beneficial to one's health."
I would love to see where it's written that drugs are really not beneficial to one's health. Ever had a painkiller? Heard of penicillin? These are DRUGS. Good for you drugs. Where DID you read that? And just for your Information Cocaine is a prescribed pain killer, same for morphine (heroin derivative) and ecstacy was invented by psychologists for marriage councilling. Marijuana is prescribed for stress relief for cancer and AIDS sufferers. Is this causing them harm or good?

 

[evade28]

Marijuana is prescribed for stress relief for cancer and AIDS sufferers. Is this causing them harm or good?

theyre gonna die anyway. what youre talking about is a grey area. its doing good and bad at the same time.

its not the same thing to smoke a joint bcos you have aids and are stressin off your brain about it, than if you smoke one just cos you want to get high. theyre two completely different situations.

 

[PeteLX]

Originally posted by evade28


theyre gonna die anyway. what youre talking about is a grey area. its doing good and bad at the same time.

its not the same thing to smoke a joint bcos you have aids and are stressin off your brain about it, than if you smoke one just cos you want to get high. theyre two completely different situations.

So I'm generalising or Michele is?

 

[Macca19]

Originally posted by Dave


I don't mind rational discussion by as I've already said, in my experience those who call for eductaed discussion and then claim that only those that agree with them are "educated" are incapable of seeing past their own blinkered pov.

This, in my humble opinion, makes you look like a real hypocrite. Its seems that your having a go at Pete, you you seem to hold the stance "anyone who disagrees with me is wrong". Thats just how i portrayed your post then...i could well be wrong.

I actually agree with a lot of what Pete said in his original post. Raves have a wonderful frindly atmosphere...ive been to a fair few, and ive not seen one fight or real argument. If i bump into someone, i can apologise, the person i bumped into will shake my hand and say its alright, and then we may have a conversation, or it will all be forgotten. I bump into someone in a club ill either be called a 'w@nker', a 'dikhead', be bumped or pushed back, or a fight/argument will start.
Two completly different atmospheres. People do look after each other at raves. If someone is in trouble, people will go find help...its just an all round friendly atmosphere.
Now i dont think Pete was implying 'if you disagree with you are uneducated'. He was saying that some people in this thread have basically just gone "your wrong" when criticising these drugs and have had no reasoning behind their posts....THOSE posts are what he didnt want. He wanted reasonaed debate. YOu Dave, ciming in and misinterpreting what he said doesnt help things and it does make you look as elt said 'a grumpy old git'. You also being very sarcastic and obnoxius isnt really called for.

ANyway...what was the topic?? Raves?? Yeah they are fun.

 

[Santos L Helper]

Please do not insult my intelligence anymore. These painkillers (benzodiazepines) are the most dangerous drug around. Not only do doctors freely prescribe them, but your body builds up a tolerance to them very quickly (quicker than heroin) and then people start self administering and then the real trouble starts. These drugs are incredibly addictive and dangerous when misused, and like most drugs this misuse can creep up on you without warning.................. but wait there's more. If someone attempts to go 'cold turkey' off these drugs the most likely result is death. Tha'ts right, you have to ween yourself off them slowly and I mean were talking months into years.
Doctors are at fault for over prescribing a drug which could do a good job, then society tends to under estimate the resulting effects because they're prescribed by doctors so they must be ok.
There are more people hooked on Benzodiazepines than all the illicit drugs combined.

 

[Michele]

Peter,
Semantics! And your reply was a little disingenuious to say the least.

.........."Good drugs".

I thought we were "discussing" the harmful effects and abuse of legal and illegal drugs - not those prescribed by a doctor for a specific illness, as opposed to "self-medicating"

..........."Penicillin"

Taking penicillin without a reason is would still be classed as abuse. Why is penicillin and the manufactured type, not as effective now? Our bodies are becoming immune from the overuse/abuse of penicillin - one of man's greatest breakthoughs.

............."Morphein"

Little was known about the effects of this wonder drug until fairly recently and how really "addictive" is this drug.

.............."Marijuana"

If a patient is terminally ill and nothing else works, I see little wrong in trying to alleviate pain, nausea and the suffering, to say little of the dignity of a terminal ill person.

.............."ecstacy"

That is very funny and quite believable.

Michele

 

[Dave]

Originally posted by Macca19
This, in my humble opinion, makes you look like a real hypocrite. Its seems that your having a go at Pete, you you seem to hold the stance "anyone who disagrees with me is wrong". Thats just how i portrayed your post then...i could well be wrong.

You misunderstand Macca, I wasn't having a go a Pete because I disagreed with his opinion on drugs. What I don't agree with his his assertions about what an "educated opinion" is and the way he insulted people who may not agree with him as being "reactionary". I'm quite happy to hear from anyone on this subject, but you don't see me calling your opinion "uneducated" or "reactionary" because I don't agree with you.

Now i dont think Pete was implying 'if you disagree with you are uneducated'. He was saying that some people in this thread have basically just gone "your wrong" when criticising these drugs

No, he said that saying you can't use drugs responsibly is "uneducated opinion", which in my opinion is not true. He then called for "educated responses", effectively dismissing those who held a position contrary to his own. What's the point of a debate if you aren't interested in hearing from those who don't agree with you?

YOu Dave, ciming in and misinterpreting what he said doesnt help things

That I misinterpreted what he said is your opinion and you're welcome to it, but in any debate I'll reply as I see fit.

and it does make you look as elt said 'a grumpy old git'. You also being very sarcastic and obnoxius isnt really called for.

I may have been sarcastic but I object to obnoxious!

 

[Macca19]

Originally posted by Dave


You misunderstand Macca, I wasn't having a go a Pete because I disagreed with his opinion on drugs. What I don't agree with his his assertions about what an "educated opinion" is and the way he insulted people who may not agree with him as being "reactionary". I'm quite happy to hear from anyone on this subject, but you don't see me calling your opinion "uneducated" or "reactionary" because I don't agree with you.

fair enough!

No, he said that saying you can't use drugs responsibly is "uneducated opinion", which in my opinion is not true. He then called for "educated responses", effectively dismissing those who held a position contrary to his own. What's the point of a debate if you aren't interested in hearing from those who don't agree with you?

Fair enough again.
Im all up for hearing other views, i love a good argument...but as long as people know what they are talking about.

That I misinterpreted what he said is your opinion and you're welcome to it, but in any debate I'll reply as I see fit.

True.

 

[Macca19]

Originally posted by Michele

I thought we were "discussing" the harmful effects and abuse of legal and illegal drugs - not those prescribed by a doctor for a specific illness, as opposed to "self-medicating"

We are actually meant to be discussing raves and whether or not we go to them or not.

We should get this back on topic

 

[Grendel]

Originally posted by Macca19


We are actually meant to be discussing raves and whether or not we go to them or not.

We should get this back on topic

Macca, the only reason the topic went of tangent was that the original thread was (hehe) laced (sorry had to do it) with ref's to the drug taking culture associated with it.

Personally Ive enjoyed the direction its diverged into. The old 'I may not agree what you say, but will defend your right to say it' line has come in very well here.

I really dont think im to woserish, but I am damn cautious of anything that from my perspective, Ive never seen do anything but cause long term harm.

All the best to you mate, I really do mean that.

Cheers.