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Ray Allen

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TigerFan

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It's funny how the perception of players can change over time.

Pigeon-holed as a jump-shooting two guard for much of his career, Ray Allen's trade to the Celtics in the off-season has brought about a new role and perhaps a new perception as he leads this team toward its first serious playoff campaign in almost two decades.

As one of Ray Allen's frustrated fantasy owners, I've watched this guy play 40 minutes a night for a diminished return of 18/4/3 on below-average percentages. But in my dual-role as a Celtics fan, I've watched this team hold itself together and play like the best team in the league every time Ray Allen's on the floor. To illustrate my point, Ray Allen's got two points at quarter time against the Bulls, 0 for 2 from the field with two made free-throws...

His team leads 32-20.

A look back through the box scores shows that in Yahoo's +/- statistics, this Celtics team is almost always a winning team when Ray Allen's on the floor. They have the NBA's best record, which in a way speaks for itself. But perhaps more compelling is that in three of their last four losses, Ray Allen's +/- was still in the positive.

Somewhere along the line, Ray Allen became a glue guy.

Maybe he'll forever be remembered as 'Jesus' for his starring role in Spike Lee's He Got Game. But it'll be his supporting role for the Celtics that brings him the most critical acclaim...

Cos it might just be the performance of his life.
 
I think Pierce is stll very much the glue on the team.

But I have too noticed Ray's game is not what it was in previous years gone by, but that's not neccesarily a bad thing, it's just a different style for him.

He's not taking anywhere near the shots he used to in a game this season but that's more a testament to the way the team plays than anything Ray has done.

While his offensive output has gone down a bit I think his defensive output has gone up, it's just that defence is often the little things that don't show up on stat sheets.
 

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I do think though KG is going to be the most important factor for the Celts, esp against the Pistons and the Cavs in the playoffs.

But Jesus is a very important player, and a much better defensive player (IMHO) then he is usually given credit for.
 
Huh? He's still very much a jump-shooting 2-guard (more "jump-shooting" than ever, in fact, if you look at 3pters as a ratio of total shots). His +/- trails Garnett and Pierce badly.

There's no doubt he's a good player, but he's clearly slowed down compared to his earlier days.
 
mydarlingclementine said:
Huh? He's still very much a jump-shooting 2-guard (more "jump-shooting" than ever, in fact, if you look at 3pters as a ratio of total shots).
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by 'jump-shooting two guard', I essentially mean 'one-dimensional player'. in the past, Ray Allen has been seen as a three-point shooter, and not much else.

His +/- trails Garnett and Pierce badly.
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source?

I haven't researched it in too much detail, but as one of Ray's fantasy owners, I've taken particular interest in his stat line every game this season, and I've noticed his +/- is regularly the best in the game. Of the Celtics' last 12 games, Ray Allen's +/- has been better than both Pierce and Garnett's on 7 occasions.

furthermore, +/- takes into account both offense and defense. Garnett and Pierce are the two offensive focal points for the Celtics, but the team is so much better as a defensive unit when Ray Allen's on the floor. his perimeter defense in Tom Thibodeau's system has improved out of sight. the fact that Boston leads the league in opposition FG% and 3pt% is testament to this

There's no doubt he's a good player, but he's clearly slowed down compared to his earlier days.
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I think you've missed the point.

he's slower, takes less shots, is shooting below career average and isn't even a focal point on his team's offense anymore... and you know what? he's playing the best basketball of his career!

he takes the league's winningest team and makes them even better by just stepping on the court. he's sacrificed the limelight to become the glue that holds the league's best team together. he'll never win MVP, but it's Ray Allen they'll be thanking if a championship comes to Boston

I can't think of a player who'd deserve that ring more
 
TigerFan said:
by 'jump-shooting two guard', I essentially mean 'one-dimensional player'. in the past, Ray Allen has been seen as a three-point shooter, and not much else.
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I think you're exaggerating just a tad. He was always a tad soft going to the rack (despite his good athleticism), but if you saw him as just a 3 point shooter, you weren't watching enough ball.


TigerFan said:
source?

I haven't researched it in too much detail, but as one of Ray's fantasy owners, I've taken particular interest in his stat line every game this season, and I've noticed his +/- is regularly the best in the game. Of the Celtics' last 12 games, Ray Allen's +/- has been better than both Pierce and Garnett's on 7 occasions.

furthermore, +/- takes into account both offense and defense. Garnett and Pierce are the two offensive focal points for the Celtics, but the team is so much better as a defensive unit when Ray Allen's on the floor. his perimeter defense in Tom Thibodeau's system has improved out of sight. the fact that Boston leads the league in opposition FG% and 3pt% is testament to this
Click to expand...

82games.com is the best place to go for +/-. Currently, Garnett is at +9.2, Pierce is at +8.2 and Allen is +2.7.

It's entirely possible he has had the best +/- of the 3 on certain occasions - but +/- is a stat that requires long-term data.


TigerFan said:
I think you've missed the point.

he's slower, takes less shots, is shooting below career average and isn't even a focal point on his team's offense anymore... and you know what? he's playing the best basketball of his career!

he takes the league's winningest team and makes them even better by just stepping on the court. he's sacrificed the limelight to become the glue that holds the league's best team together. he'll never win MVP, but it's Ray Allen they'll be thanking if a championship comes to Boston

I can't think of a player who'd deserve that ring more
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I haven't missed the point. I just think you're totally wrong about Ray Ray. My point is precisely that he's not playing the best basketball of his career, and if he can get back to good form, the Celtics will be a much more formidable force.

Some numbers:

He currently has a PER of 16.5, good for 83rd in the league: his worst since his 2nd season in Milwaukee. He's been above 20.0 (i.e. top 30) for the last 5 seasons. Now, PER is not a raw measure. It takes into account that he's not getting as many touches, etc...it's purely a measure of efficiency. Which is why someone like Carl Landry can be as high as 12th in PER.

Your "glue" remark also seems unjustified, looking at the +/- I mentioned above.

Defense is difficult to quantify in numbers, so I can't categorically refute your claim that his perimeter defense has improved out of sight. But from the 15 or so Celtics games I've seen, he's still an average to below average defender (although showing more intensity on that end than before). The main change going from Seattle to Boston is that he doesn't have to defend the no.1 perimeter option any more - which is a big plus.


Anyway, I didn't mean to be so disparaging about Ray Allen. I like watching him play. I just thought it was a bit strange to start a thread praising the guy when he's had a particularly poor season by his standards.
 
TigerFan said:
but the team is so much better as a defensive unit when Ray Allen's on the floor. his perimeter defense in Tom Thibodeau's system has improved out of sight. the fact that Boston leads the league in opposition FG% and 3pt% is testament to this

he'll never win MVP, but it's Ray Allen they'll be thanking if a championship comes to Boston

I can't think of a player who'd deserve that ring more
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1. Garnett is the most important player as far as D goes at Boston. And by an absolute long shot. Try comparing Boston's PAPG with Garnet out and Garnet in. Then do the same for Ray.

2. Well they should be thanking Danny and KG first and foremost.

3. I can think of quite a few players who deserve a ring more than Ray. I have never thought of Ray as being someone who deserves a ring.
 
He did make the East conference finals with Milwaukee in 2001.
Lost in 7 games to Iverson's sixers.
 

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Showbag said:
Ray Allen is a career loser, one half of a season with a winning Boston outfit does not a career make, nor a ring deserve.
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that's a bit harsh mate. i don't think he's ever really been on a team that's been able to contend. he's hit a lot of clutch shots in his career, and he's won a few games for the Celts this season off his own bat.

but i'm not even a Ray Allen fan so I don't care. i think Pierce is 100 times better. Ray is essentially a glorified weaker-ankle version of Jason Kapono. and i'd probably rather have JK on my team right now.

but at least Ray Allen is smooth
RayAllenSmooth.jpg
 
Allen helps the team simply by being Ray Allen aka the best three point shooter of all time. Teams' can't afford to leave him open, which gives Pierce and Garnett the chances to go one out that they need.

It's why the three pronged offense of Allen/Pierce/Garnett works so well, they're all excellent scorers who deserve a lot of attention, so Boston almost always has a mismatch to exploit.
 
Karl Pilkington said:
Allen helps the team simply by being Ray Allen aka the best three point shooter of all time. Teams' can't afford to leave him open, which gives Pierce and Garnett the chances to go one out that they need.

It's why the three pronged offense of Allen/Pierce/Garnett works so well, they're all excellent scorers who deserve a lot of attention, so Boston almost always has a mismatch to exploit.
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The rest is right but he's not the best 3 point shooter ever.
 
Darealrath said:
The rest is right but he's not the best 3 point shooter ever.
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Realistically only Reggie could be considered better, considering the role Allen has often played as the first option on offense. Most of the other high percentage shooters haven't been the primary focus on offense, and Allen shoots a career .401 compared to Reggie's .398.

By the end of his career, Allen will have hit more 3 pointers and at a higher clip then Reggie, as well as having a higher PPG average and dropping more "big" 40 and 50 point games.

I'd say if Allen isn't considered the best ever now, he will be when he retires. His jumpshot is a thing of beauty, in fact, I'd give my right nut to own that jump shot.
 

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Allen may well be the best ever but I think Reggie will continue to hold that official title simply because of the aformentioned clutchness.
 
Reggie was much better than Allen will ever be.
Reggie knew how to perform in the playoffs (i should know :( )
and Reggie was a great leader.
 

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