Autopsy Rd 15 Messy contest as Blues cleaned up by Giants

[murphster]

Yep. Really like the look of him in the small running defender role. Playing with dare which is a credit to the coaches who have obviously given him licence to back himself.

Yep and he really earned his chance as well has been very good all year in the scratch matches, was rapped to see Willo starting to use that lethal left peg of his as well he really nailed a few long flat kicks to players in space to open up the play, both Willo and Polson gave us good drive coming out which allowed Doc more freedom to work, except for the first 15 minutes of the game our ability to get through there defence and transition was fantastic.

PS I’m not sure what the hell Hodge was talking about in the last Qtr after we got the 50 mtr penalty when he said Carlton have struggled to move the ball from the GWS defence, must have been watching a different game.

 

[fnm_just a man]

Our recent history?, Since the rebuild started?

I think our progression is in accordance with most and or most recent rebuilding clubs

We have experienced a variety of results from poor losses to the likes of the Hawks, to great wins like the dogs, lucky wins, unlucky losses

That's what mid table sides do, until they find greater consistency

If you'd like to limit it to the last 5 years, then yes, I would still suggest we are not seeing the improvement in players we would expect. I see a few who have improved on last year, a number who have stalled, a number who have seemingly regressed and a few who have stalled or regressed but have injury as a defence, for now. If you'd like to go back to when we started playing by the rules, 20 years ago, the story is far more miserable than that.

 

[murphster]

Where is the evidence of Dow learning a
defensive game? Agree that he has to show this side of his game। soon.

Dow was number 1 for his average speed in defence on the weekend and 3rd for average speed overall so he did actually run pretty hard which is why he was knackered in the last, he just needs to get better with his running patterns to get himself in better position but as was pointed out defensive running is not something they are taught until they reach AFL level as in U18s it is all about showing your attacking attributes and see ball get ball.

It is this specific area that Dow has been working on with the coaches and he has definitely improved from where he was but as I said still needs work on his running patterns, once he gets this right he can then put it all together with his attacking play and become the player we want him to be.

 

[reubsblues]

I said in an earlier comment that I would have experimented with Liam Jones as a 'defensive' CHF on both Moore last week and Haynes this game. Tell Jones to play CHF like he plays FB, punch when behind, mark the thing when he can, but above all else be accountable for the intercept defender.

It may be a little radical, it may even work. It would definitely stop Jonesy's 2 goal a game brain fades at FB.

If we can figure this out it makes you wonder what the eff the coaches are watching sometimes
The game is in a mess because of the coaches

 

[Arr0w]

If you'd like to limit it to the last 5 years, then yes, I would still suggest we are not seeing the improvement in players we would expect. I see a few who have improved on last year, a number who have stalled, a number who have seemingly regressed and a few who have stalled or regressed but have injury as a defence, for now. If you'd like to go back to when we started playing by the rules, 20 years ago, the story is far more miserable than that.

Couple of words that define the situation

"Expect" this is where people go wrong, in terms of where they think we should be. Would be nice to buck the trend of rebuilding sides and arrive earlier to our destination, but our current levels compare extremely well.

"Regress" Lost count the amount of times I see this. You know, that whole linear scenario is the only thing many people accept, anything less is a failure

As for the "last 20 years" some of our guys weren't even born. Prior to 2015, our talent identification and list management was putrid. I am sure someone will point out Cripps, but even a broken clock is right twice a day

 

[JustaBattler]

Dow was number 1 for his average speed in defence on the weekend and 3rd for average speed overall so he did actually run pretty hard which is why he was knackered in the last, he just needs to get better with his running patterns to get himself in better position but as was pointed out defensive running is not something they are taught until they reach AFL level as in U18s it is all about showing your attacking attributes and see ball get ball.

It is this specific area that Dow has been working on with the coaches and he has definitely improved from where he was but as I said still needs work on his running patterns, once he gets this right he can then put it all together with his attacking play and become the player we want him to be.

Dow's biggest problem is he is (like Cuningham) not a smart footballer - unlike Cuningham, he will never be silk, never be a bull as far as size goes and is the worst tackler on the list - which takes very little talent to actually do well. He looks great in the first 10 meters when he gets some clear space with ball in hand- and then butchers it - every time. I suspect he has serious between the ears performance anxiety issues - but he is now a 'project player' at Carlton - wish him all the best and maybe things just 'click ' for him one day as they sometimes do- but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[passmark]

Got a few “if only” players on the list and some quite expensive in terms of draft order or trades.

Need a couple to come good.

 

[thylacine60]

Couple of words that define the situation

"Expect" this is where people go wrong, in terms of where they think we should be. Would be nice to buck the trend of rebuilding sides and arrive earlier to our destination, but our current levels compare extremely well.

"Regress" Lost count the amount of times I see this. You know, that whole linear scenario is the only thing many people accept, anything less is a failure

As for the "last 20 years" some of our guys weren't even born. Prior to 2015, our talent identification and list management was putrid. I am sure someone will point out Cripps, but even a broken clock is right twice a day

I have one of those clocks. I've learnt to only check the time twice a day.

 

[AlecDuncan]

Yeah the forwards let us down again with poor finishing, must have had 6-7 set shots from between 50-40 and missed them all while Riccardi slots his one chance, Martin had 2 regulation snaps from under 30 and butchered them both badly, we should have been almost 10 goals up going into the last but instead we were 15 points up.

OTOH, Giants were 2:11 at one point. And Melbourne couldn't hit Craig Hutchison's ego from 5m away when it mattered. Something in the water up there.

 

[Funk]

Also does Eddie need new boots? He has developed an addiction to falling over the past month.

Old age does that to people

 

[mochacinolatte]

Thinking between this game and collingwoods game, we just let their intercepters do too much work.

Last week Darcy Moore, this time Nick Haynes. Maybe if the forwards had more accountability they stop these easy loose man intercepts.

 

[Stamos]

Coaches' Votes

10 Nick Haynes (GWS)
8 Samuel Walsh (CARL)
6 Toby Greene (GWS)
4 Jacob Weitering (CARL)
2 Sam Docherty (CARL)

 

[BlueBayou]

I have one of those clocks. I've learnt to only check the time twice a day.

This is profound...

 

[BlueBayou]

Thinking between this game and collingwoods game, we just let their intercepters do too much work.

Last week Darcy Moore, this time Nick Haynes. Maybe if the forwards had more accountability they stop these easy loose man intercepts.

See my comments re playing Jones as a 'defensive' chf. It might just work

 

[katmanblue]

Yeah probably numb.

Comfortably

On SM-N960F using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Triniboy]

Yeah the forwards let us down again with poor finishing, must have had 6-7 set shots from between 50-40 and missed them all while Riccardi slots his one chance, Martin had 2 regulation snaps from under 30 and butchered them both badly, we should have been almost 10 goals up going into the last but instead we were 15 points up.

Can’t blame the mids or the defence for that loss as they gave us the chances but the forwards blew it, conversely our team defence restricted there chances to score, once again all down to kicking for goal which against lesser sides we can get away with but against the better sides you just can’t.

Our skills have improved expediently since 2019, less turn overs coming out of our backline. My view is delivery from 60-70m out from goal hasn’t been up to scratch for a 4-6 weeks. In the majority of matches we’ve lost, opposition goals have come from our half forward line due to poor decision making and generally poor kicking in particular to short congested contests inside 50.
Is it because of instructions from forward line coaches or players skill set?

I’ll cut slack for our younger players making mistakes but not experienced players who continually turn the ball over making glaring poor decisions or have substandard kicking and hand skills, short lob kicks generally get intercepted.

 

[Bluechip66]

I have one of those clocks. I've learnt to only check the time twice a day.

How do u know what time to check it though?

 

[thylacine60]

I wait.

 

[Blue since 72]

Yeah the forwards let us down again with poor finishing, must have had 6-7 set shots from between 50-40 and missed them all while Riccardi slots his one chance, Martin had 2 regulation snaps from under 30 and butchered them both badly, we should have been almost 10 goals up going into the last but instead we were 15 points up.

Can’t blame the mids or the defence for that loss as they gave us the chances but the forwards blew it, conversely our team defence restricted there chances to score, once again all down to kicking for goal which against lesser sides we can get away with but against the better sides you just can’t.

This.

Watched a replay on the weekend and our poor kicking for goal was the difference, general play was very even throughout the game. Teague spoke about our shallow F50 entries but it wasn't like the set shots were beyond the players range, they just didn't finish off.

Very disappointing to lose games in this manner.

 

[fnm_just a man]

Couple of words that define the situation

"Expect" this is where people go wrong, in terms of where they think we should be. Would be nice to buck the trend of rebuilding sides and arrive earlier to our destination, but our current levels compare extremely well.

"Regress" Lost count the amount of times I see this. You know, that whole linear scenario is the only thing many people accept, anything less is a failure

As for the "last 20 years" some of our guys weren't even born. Prior to 2015, our talent identification and list management was putrid. I am sure someone will point out Cripps, but even a broken clock is right twice a day

Expectations can apply, and should apply, in any number of ways - it's not purely a matter of wins and losses or ladder position (that is not what I'm referring to when I talk of expectations). Part of good list management is predicting how players are tracking and knowing when to hold, when to fold. Prediction and expectation go hand-in-hand. My expectations apply to the kind of mindset I expect to see from players/the entire team regardless of age/experience, and the way this manifests in performances.

Our mental vulnerability/fragility/weakness impacts almost every aspect of our performance negatively - physicality, decision-making, marks, goal-kicking, pressure etc etc. Whatever one thinks of our performances and wins/losses in terms of our rebuild, it is still fair to look beyond that and into other aspects of performance.

The Hawks beat us because they believed they would. I'd hazard a guess that our players believed they would too. No surprises they've come from a significant deficit 2 years in a row. We have one great performance for the season, a great 3-qtr performance and then a bunch of fairly unconvincing wins (GC were flat as a tack and we still managed 7.18), and in my view, some flattering losses. I reiterate that it's about the nature of the performance rather than the end result. No surprises that our great performance was against the Bulldogs who also have a fragile backbone. No surprises again that the games against he Dogs have been the two stand-out performances in years - that in itself is telling. Why can we turn it on against the Bulldogs? I think they are one team we believe we can beat, for whatever reason.

The Hawks lost plenty of games during their rebuild. They lost games because they were young and not quite ready. Rarely, did they lose with blatant lack of commitment. That is the difference. It is fine to lose games at any time and even more so during a rebuild, but it is the nature of the losses that is worth analysing. During those same years for the Hawks there were games of brilliance and you walked away knowing that their rise was inevitable. As I said earlier, we've had one game where you could clearly walk away with that feeling. Doesn't compare.

There is simply no denying that we are mentally fragile, and that as a club we have been for 20 years. There is overwhelming evidence - countless moments in games, individual performances, team performances. The difference is in those who expect it to take care of itself and those who are concerned in our Club's ability to develop the required attitude on the back of 20 years of abject failure in developing players, developing leaders or an ultra-competitive mindset. The former may well be right, but I'm in the latter camp, so the question turns to how do we reduce that risk? It can go on and on, but for me, the risk reduces by bringing in people made of the right stuff, from the outside - people who will set a standard and bring the others up to the level.

 

[Arr0w]

Expectations can apply, and should apply, in any number of ways - it's not purely a matter of wins and losses or ladder position (that is not what I'm referring to when I talk of expectations). Part of good list management is predicting how players are tracking and knowing when to hold, when to fold. Prediction and expectation go hand-in-hand. My expectations apply to the kind of mindset I expect to see from players/the entire team regardless of age/experience, and the way this manifests in performances.

Our mental vulnerability/fragility/weakness impacts almost every aspect of our performance negatively - physicality, decision-making, marks, goal-kicking, pressure etc etc. Whatever one thinks of our performances and wins/losses in terms of our rebuild, it is still fair to look beyond that and into other aspects of performance.

The Hawks beat us because they believed they would. I'd hazard a guess that our players believed they would too. No surprises they've come from a significant deficit 2 years in a row. We have one great performance for the season, a great 3-qtr performance and then a bunch of fairly unconvincing wins (GC were flat as a tack and we still managed 7.18), and in my view, some flattering losses. I reiterate that it's about the nature of the performance rather than the end result. No surprises that our great performance was against the Bulldogs who also have a fragile backbone. No surprises again that the games against he Dogs have been the two stand-out performances in years - that in itself is telling. Why can we turn it on against the Bulldogs? I think they are one team we believe we can beat, for whatever reason.

The Hawks lost plenty of games during their rebuild. They lost games because they were young and not quite ready. Rarely, did they lose with blatant lack of commitment. That is the difference. It is fine to lose games at any time and even more so during a rebuild, but it is the nature of the losses that is worth analysing. During those same years for the Hawks there were games of brilliance and you walked away knowing that their rise was inevitable. As I said earlier, we've had one game where you could clearly walk away with that feeling. Doesn't compare.

There is simply no denying that we are mentally fragile, and that as a club we have been for 20 years. There is overwhelming evidence - countless moments in games, individual performances, team performances. The difference is in those who expect it to take care of itself and those who are concerned in our Club's ability to develop the required attitude on the back of 20 years of abject failure in developing players, developing leaders or an ultra-competitive mindset. The former may well be right, but I'm in the latter camp, so the question turns to how do we reduce that risk? It can go on and on, but for me, the risk reduces by bringing in people made of the right stuff, from the outside - people who will set a standard and bring the others up to the level.

Understand how you may see it, but to me it seems people draw a very long bow, especially when they reference the mentality of a player or group

And again, as for the last 20 years, some of our players weren't even born, most weren't even on the list, so it means absolutely nothing to this group

 

[fnm_just a man]

Understand how you may see it, but to me it seems people draw a very long bow, especially when they reference the mentality of a player or group

And again, as for the last 20 years, some of our players weren't even born, most weren't even on the list, so it means absolutely nothing to this group

What do you mean by drawing a long bow referencing the mentality of a player or group? The conclusions that we're drawing based only on what we see without knowing what goes on behind closed doors?

I disagree regarding the timeframe because it is all part of the greater club culture. Our club has not overcome the scars of the last 20 years. But putting that aside for now and focussing on only the last 5 years ... There still isn't much standing out to counter my view, as far as I can tell. Walsh is a standout, he can be our Joel Selwood/Luke Hodge, but this is 5 years into our rebuild. That is no longer a small timeframe - and Joel Selwood wasn't exactly the turning point, he was more the final piece in the puzzle. Focussing on our guys from the last 5 drafts, which ones stand out for their ultra-competitive edge and self-belief? I start again with Walsh - he is amazing... and I don't know where to take it after that. Charlie probably next, but we don't really know yet. Weiters or Fish probably after that, and that's saying something. The rest of the guys aren't anywhere near it in terms of that ultra-competitive attitude - Harry, Sammo, Dow, O'Brien, Cunners, Williamson.. I'm not necessarily blaming the players - I believe it's the club culture, but that's why I believe we need those guys who have such self-belief that they can accomplish the monumental task of overcoming and changing the direction of our club culture.

Anyhoo, we can continue to discuss in the appropriate thread over the next couple of months!

 

[Blue since 72]

Not sure what the MCs thinking is on LOB....he wasn’t even named as an emergency.

I'd say they've decided to use this year as a development year. I believe he's been working on his contested ball/defensive side of the game.

It's ok to run guys off their feet in school footy and get heaps of ball but he can't do that at AFL level.