Real Life Noob - basic help

[Simon_Nesbit]

Hey all.

I was introduced to poker only recently (about 12 months ago), and have been playing online on and off over the last two months, starting out in free games, and then moving in to minor cash games. (Well what I thought was 'minor' anyway).

I've got a pretty strong maths background, and was a very good blackjack player ten years ago (good enough to not be allowed to play at my local casino anymore), but real-life poker is something completely different.

I've played a couple of 'friendlies' with mates (sun nights table of 5), all of whom are VERY social players. (Serious, but more about beer than winning).

I've got a spot booked at my local table for tomorrow night, and just starting to stress about playing live against "proper" players.

I know from evaluating my stats I play far too many hands, and struggle to walk away in pot-limit - as do many players in my experience - but when I try to be a 'tight' player, I end up folding away half of my chips.

I've read a couple of books on basic poker, and applied my own statistical analysis on hand winning %'s, but I've got a terrible 'shake' to my hands (I usually lock my hands together as much as possible to hide this), and I'm not good at reading players. I can play the cards, but not so much the players.

My experience with pot-limit is that it's much harder to read players than in NL, as the calls are so much smaller players will call with less.

So two things, what are some (easily digestible) quick hints for 'live' games, and what (if any) 'protocols' apply to "real" poker.

 

[mdc]

I was introduced to poker only recently (about 12 months ago), and have been playing online on and off over the last two months, starting out in free games, and then moving in to minor cash games. (Well what I thought was 'minor' anyway).

What stakes are we talking?

I've got a spot booked at my local table for tomorrow night, and just starting to stress about playing live against "proper" players.

I'm going to go ahead and assume a 10 player table.

I know from evaluating my stats I play far too many hands, and struggle to walk away in pot-limit - as do many players in my experience - but when I try to be a 'tight' player, I end up folding away half of my chips.

Some specific numbers would be dandy. And when you say too many hands, do you mean pre-flop, or post-flop?

I've read a couple of books on basic poker, and applied my own statistical analysis on hand winning %'s, but I've got a terrible 'shake' to my hands (I usually lock my hands together as much as possible to hide this), and I'm not good at reading players. I can play the cards, but not so much the players.

Everyone shakes the first few times they play live. As long as you don't do it only when you have a hand or vice-versa, it's no biggie.

As for reading players, it comes with experience. My advice is don't be too friendly to anyone, and just watch people's faces/bodies as much as possible, and listen. A bit of social profiling never went astray either. If it's a big bloke who's downing shots of whisky every other hand, profile him appropriately until he shows you otherwise. If you want, download Caro's book of tells as a starter, but don't take it too seriously - it should just give you an idea of what to look for.

My experience with pot-limit is that it's much harder to read players than in NL, as the calls are so much smaller players will call with less.

PL and NL plays very similar, but I'd say PL is actually a bit easier as you won't have to face maniac plays like massive overbets.

So two things, what are some (easily digestible) quick hints for 'live' games, and what (if any) 'protocols' apply to "real" poker.

c.f. online poker;

- People are much keener to play hands, so a TAG mentality is correct.
- Players are generally a lot worse than online.
- Forget about cute plays like just calling with AA/KK pre-flop - there's no point. They will call and call and call no matter how many times they get burnt.

I'm sure there's other things, but that's just off the top of my head.

gl, and let us know how you go.

 

[paxmaniac]

If you want, download Caro's book of tells as a starter, but don't take it too seriously - it should just give you an idea of what to look for.

That's such a funny book. It's worth a read to find out a) what sort of things to look out for at the poker table and b) to find out what a self-important prat Mike Caro is. Look for the tells and see if you can build a consistent profile of your opponents, but don't act on tells alone unless you are very confident or the decision is marginal anyway. The betting says far more about your opponent's hand than any "tell" will, especially at holdem (draw is a different game entirely). I find Mike's "weak=strong" and "strong=weak" mantra to be fairly useless, and his "hourly rates" for each tell are a complete joke. If someone checkraises you on the turn, they usually do so with strong body language whether they are bluffing or not.

 

[paxmaniac]

For the OP:

If you are a good blackjack player and have a good brain for stats, chances are you can be an excellent poker player (just look at Andy Bloch).

My advice would be to pick a game and stick to it (at least to begin with), but avoid pot limit Holdem, since nobody plays it. Choose limit or NL, full tables or 6-max, cash or tournaments. Then study up on your chosen game. Get the Harrington books for NL cash or tournaments. Get Stox or Borer for 6-max limit. Get Sklansky Malmuth and/or Miller Sklansky for full ring limit. Learn the appropriate preflop stats for your game and what hands they represent. Learn how to play in a loose game and how to play in a tight game. Go to the twoplustwo forums and read up about your chosen game (but assess any posts there critically as it's value is not guaranteed). If playing online, find out about kickback bonuses and rakeback to maximise your earnings while learning.

Then go and play 50,000 hands or so and find out whether you are a winning player!

 

[mdc]

That's such a funny book. It's worth a read to find out a) what sort of things to look out for at the poker table and b) to find out what a self-important prat Mike Caro is. Look for the tells and see if you can build a consistent profile of your opponents, but don't act on tells alone unless you are very confident or the decision is marginal anyway. The betting says far more about your opponent's hand than any "tell" will, especially at holdem (draw is a different game entirely). I find Mike's "weak=strong" and "strong=weak" mantra to be fairly useless, and his "hourly rates" for each tell are a complete joke. If someone checkraises you on the turn, they usually do so with strong body language whether they are bluffing or not.

Yeah, Caro's a mental, but it's the only "tell" book I know of that would be easily available on torrents. What you said is right though - looking/finding tells makes live poker fun imo, but betting patterns accounts for 80%+ of information that you want.

I think it's one of the (many) reasons live players are generally worse - they rely too much on tells, and not enough on maths/patterns.

 

[mdc]

My advice would be to pick a game and stick to it (at least to begin with), but avoid pot limit Holdem, since nobody plays it.

Meh. PLHE and NLHE is the same thing, with slight adjustments. It's not like everyone's overbetting the pot all the time in NL anyway.

I would also recommend The Mathematics of Poker. If you've got a stats background there won't be anything overly new in there, but it's a good read nonetheless.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Thanks to all so far. Will attempt to digest this later.

$1/$2 (then $5/$10 once I was comfortable) in NL online. Made a pretty packet early on, but a couple of (too keen) big losses on two pair (hi/lo) have hurt overall.

Read the Harrington books briefly, but need to get back into them.

I don't have any (much) issue playing the odds, but I was (am) the one putting up maniacal bets to win the pot. Generally on a semi-bluff (flush or straight draw, low pair, etc).

Will let you know how I go.

 

[paxmaniac]

$1/$2 (then $5/$10 once I was comfortable) in NL online.

"Minor" stakes eh? Are we talking blinds or buyins here?

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Blinds. Hence my new understanding (of fractional $ stakes) that these aren't particularly 'minor' at all.

Anyway, back to the point of the OP. Some highlights:

Only 9 of the 10 turning up to play, but managment not letting anyone sit in the tenth spot.

8 of the 9 playing with $100 buy-in (including me), one guy coming in with $250.

Me quickly realising how bad the 'live players' were - and that my ~40% betting wasn't even the worst on the table, with 4-5 going to pretty much every flop, and often 3 right through.

Getting down to $65 or thereabouts at one stage, getting as high as $180.

Attempting to fold, and 'flicking' my cards, resulting in them turning face-up 2/7 D. Flop then turns up 4/5/6 D, and the River a 3D.

After this, reaching over to fold, and knocking my chip stack, with two chips rolling right accross the table, one into the pot, and one to another player. (I got them back)

The same bloke beating me from behind in four consecutive pots, 3 times on the river.

Winning $85 on a Ace-high flush, when 3 other players also had flushes (geez I wish that was no-limit, it was a constant stream of betting right through, and I picked mine up on the flop).

Having the same guy go bust twice. Started as "chip leader" $250, then bought another $100, then lost the lot anyway. Expensive nights stay.

Walking away after four hours with about $60 in my pocket.

....

Also, playing blackjack many years ago, we used to get complimentary drinks very often (every 5-10 minutes if you wanted) - last night I was only offered three drinks, and had to ask - symptomatic of the respect given to poker, or just a drop/change in expectations?

 

[The Passenger]

Winning $85 on a Ace-high flush, when 3 other players also had flushes (geez I wish that was no-limit, it was a constant stream of betting right through, and I picked mine up on the flop).

that is seriously one of the sweetest things i could imagine a poker player getting.... garuanteed huge money.

the only other thing i could think of would be this:

you: AA
player1: KK
player2: QQ

flop comes AKQ

although i could safely say you could play 1,000,000 hands and you wouldn't see it.... and if you happened to see it, you'd be the one holding kings... or you'd be holding the aces and the turn and river come JT

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

I managed to lose an online game once with four Kings. (two in the hand, two in the flop).

Turn and River both Aces. Four Aces beats four Kings. (so very glad that was "play money" as I bet my entire stash on it, and would have even with real cash).

 

[Cartman121]

that is seriously one of the sweetest things i could imagine a poker player getting.... garuanteed huge money.

the only other thing i could think of would be this:

you: AA
player1: KK
player2: QQ

flop comes AKQ

although i could safely say you could play 1,000,000 hands and you wouldn't see it.... and if you happened to see it, you'd be the one holding kings... or you'd be holding the aces and the turn and river come JT

Well I've come close. KK flop AK4....we all know what he had

I've seen AA vs KK vs QQ all in preflop a couple of times as well.

 

[coughs2richo]

Well I've come close. KK flop AK4....we all know what he had

I've seen AA vs KK vs QQ all in preflop a couple of times as well.

Thats cause your a big fish muppet

you always muppeted me cause ur a donkey

 

[Cartman121]

I'm sorry, do I know you?

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

heh....

went for 'rd.2' last night/this morning. Handy little winnings (about $300 - tripling my buy-in). A real lucky night, I don't think I played particularly well (much tighter than last time) but I got lucky in many of the bigger pots.

I've got a bit of a head-cold, and my nose was itchy all night.

The guy on my right, when he got up to go, turned to me and as he shook my hand, he said (under his breath) "you scratch your nose every time you are bluffing".

Trying not to think about it, I realised after another dozen or so hands he was right.

Sitting in the BB, I have six players enter the pot. I've drawn pocket aces.

After 30 seconds (and a deliberate scratch) I bet. Four other bets come in.

Flop doesn't bring anything up but an Ace (and random non-joined low cards)

Next round same thing. Three others in pot. Turn brings a Queen.

And again. All three bet up to max. River is a Nine.

We go to show, and just before I turn my cards over, I get a (genuine) itch. I turn one over, then have a scratch, before turning over the second.

Biggest mouth on the table stands up, yells obscenity at me, and leaves. (comes back for chips about 2 minutes later, very sheepish).

I don't think they were too impressed with it. Betting slowed right down after that.

 

[paxmaniac]

Nahh, I'm gonna have to call bullshit here Simon.

Three guys pay heavy betting on three streets on an ace high board (when one at most can have an ace), all because you scratched your nose? Sounds like a bad James Bond plot.

 

[mdc]

Nahh, I'm gonna have to call bullshit here Simon.

Three guys pay heavy betting on three streets on an ace high board (when one at most can have an ace), all because you scratched your nose? Sounds like a bad James Bond plot.

I lol'd

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

You haven't seen the calibre of players down here. They are WOEFUL. I'm inconsistently bad (mainly through an inability to back down/walk away), but sometimes I feel they would play just as well if they didn't even look at their cards.

And I'm sure they would have done it regardless of the nose-scratching...but hey, made me feel good, was a good story (and your right about the bond plotline) - but one guy was really pissed about it.

Playing Limit Hold'em it seems they'll bet as often as not, almost regardless of what hand they have.

I'm thinking of getting my own setup, so I can play at home with friends, and not restricted to the casino times/setups - any suggestions on where would be a good place to research tables/kits/etc?

 

[Purrfect Pussies]

Just a quick question gentlemen. Where does Carribean Stud Poker sit in the scale of things? Just a stupid game for poker novices?

 

[The Passenger]

Just a quick question gentlemen. Where does Carribean Stud Poker sit in the scale of things? Just a stupid game for poker novices?

isn't carribean stud just 7-card stud, but a 4-straight ranks higher than one pair and lower than two pair and a 4-flush ranks higher than a 4-straight but lower than 2-pair...

in which case i reckon that's a pretty cool game.

 

[paxmaniac]

Just a quick question gentlemen. Where does Carribean Stud Poker sit in the scale of things? Just a stupid game for poker novices?

It's not poker. It's a casino game, which makes it -EV always. Real poker players won't touch it with a barge-pole.

 

[The Passenger]

the variation i'm thinking of is called SOKO, and it's played as 5-card stud, not 7-card....

 

[mdc]

Real poker players won't touch it with a barge-pole.

Correct. Because as we all know, real poker players never, ever gamble.

 

[Purrfect Pussies]

the variation i'm thinking of is called SOKO, and it's played as 5-card stud, not 7-card....

Yeah, thats it. I played it at Crown a few weeks ago for the first time. Just a 5 card draw againist the house. Dealer needs a pair to 'open' or play against you. If dealer didn't have a pair and you had 2 of a kind, all you got paid was double your ante. Lowest pair is "Ace/King" so that you can beat the dealer with a pair of deuces.
I was playing for about 1 hour, and was dealt 4 4's. Got a $1500 jackpot, but dealer didn't have a pair so missed out on 16/1 x my bet of $30. There was no 'skill' involved in the game at all.

 

[WOTTAMACHINE]

It is a good game if you are planning to have a lot of drinks..
It is a jackpot game.. Trying to win the jackpot with a royal flush or 10% with a straight flush..
I wouldnt go into a casino and play it just like that..
In Adelaide a few years ago (during a heavy drinking session whilst on vacation) I played it and when I play I put the cards together and reveal them to myself 1 by 1..
I looked down to a J(h), K(h), Q(h), A(h) and my heart starts racing, praying for the 10(h), when I looked down at my last card it was the 5(h), still got a minor jackpot but that is the closest I have ever got.
I have also noticed that when the dealer actually uses the shuffling machine the same hands come out alot. I saw trip As three times in a row with the same deck..
When the dealer actually shuffles them physically and washes the cards, anything can happen and it is more exciting.. For me, the shuffling machine seems rigged..