List Mgmt. Rebuild or refresh?

[Bird Man]

I refuse for our strategy to be deliberately "drop down" for 2 years to get early picks while we have one "Dustin Martin" on our team. It is an insult to his talents for us to just piss away his final elite years. If that is our plan also, see ya Shai.

Our plan needs to be that of Geelong. Stay in the mix, be creative - attack free agency & sell your brand. I would like our point of difference to be we don't waste picks or list spots on players 30+ - our skill has been using the same strategy on players which other teams seem to underrate, while we see a unique skillset or quality to them that we think is valuable.... Grigg, Townsend, Houli, Toby, Broad, Pickett, Mansell - all players that other teams underrated in their system - or completely overlooked in the drafts etc. I think this is our unique point of difference vs the "ol man cats" strategy - but otherwise we go down the same road as the Cats

FWIW i think only Cotch, Houli and maybe Astbury are at that point now - but i do believe within another 1,2 & 3 years we have to be prepared to say goodbye to Jack, Edwards, Grimes, Presita, Dusty, Lambert, Pickett & maybe even Lynch. I think the wear and tear of this dynasty era is going to burn these guys out quicker than we all expected. This was the cost of "Chaos Ball" - our style was we would wear & beat you down by winning the war of attrition. Every night, we went to war. Over half our grand final team could be out of the league by the end of 2023, & i think we will see substantial decline in their output between now and then.

I think with a fairly good base of young players around we can still compete, but we are basically looking off the edge of that cliff right now. It does excite me though to imagine what this current team could still do if they can commit to the 3 or 4 young guys to play key roles in the team moving forward and see if some of these older players can draw on the enthusiasm of our young brigade. There is still pieces and time for this season to have another twist, but we need put ourselves in that situation first.

what are you talking about?

Geelong dont have the blue print to success last time they went back to back was in the 50's. Problem with their model is yes they play well but will always fall of in the finals or come crunch time. If you look at the stat that really matters we are just as if not more successful than the Cats. The system the AFL has with free agency and trade still isnt good enough to deliver a team a premiership with savy trading and salary management like the NBA. You can not dodge the elite end of the draft.

you watch the Hawks with clarko recruit well for elite young guns and then fill it out with fringe players like we did and win

 

[Football Tragic]

Well Astbury will be playing this week and Miller too, hopefully. So we'll get an idea of Millers form at the senior level. If Miller looks OK then we can plan Dave's retirement with confidence and then pick the usual young, project KPD. Balta's and Broads' injuries not real long is a relief.

I wouldn't be surprized if they bring in Astbury to cover Balta but then move McIntosh down back to cover Broad instead of bringing in Miller. I'd like to see Miller, particularly against GC, if it was up to me but more midfielders/wingers seemed tp carve it up at VFL level than Miller did. I'm guessing, we'll see one of Naish, Caddy or Ross included along with Astbury.

 

[fargothegreat]

I wouldn't be surprized if they bring in Astbury to cover Balta but then move McIntosh down back to cover Broad instead of bringing in Miller. I'd like to see Miller, particularly against GC, if it was up to me but more midfielders/wingers seemed tp carve it up at VFL level than Miller did. I'm guessing, we'll see one of Naish, Caddy or Ross included along with Astbury.

We've probably been a bit short in defense lately anyway, so I'd be happy for us to bring in Both Astbury and Miller to take talls and use Grimes as support.

 

[Del65166]

I wouldn't be surprized if they bring in Astbury to cover Balta but then move McIntosh down back to cover Broad instead of bringing in Miller. I'd like to see Miller, particularly against GC, if it was up to me but more midfielders/wingers seemed tp carve it up at VFL level than Miller did. I'm guessing, we'll see one of Naish, Caddy or Ross included along with Astbury.

Almost belongs in another thread
Astbury is a given. So you're rolling with Astbury & Grimes & Kmac as your talls vs King & Day & ? ?
I think I'd even go with Ross/Garth and omit Kmac completely. Pity Miller didn't ruck last week cos I'd almost play him ahead of Chol. Anyhow Chol to roll back and take some intercept marks.
Be a great opportunity to play Miller though but if he doesn't get selected with Balta and Broad out he probably never will.

 

[theyellowsash]

Almost belongs in another thread
Astbury is a given. So you're rolling with Astbury & Grimes & Kmac as your talls vs King & Day & ? ?
I think I'd even go with Ross/Garth and omit Kmac completely. Pity Miller didn't ruck last week cos I'd almost play him ahead of Chol. Anyhow Chol to roll back and take some intercept marks.
Be a great opportunity to play Miller though but if he doesn't get selected with Balta and Broad out he probably never will.

we need to play miller and astbury alongside kmac and grimes.

we've been playing 1 big man short down back all year and its shown. 2017 we played rance and astbury as talls alongside broad and grimes as mediums. 2020 swap rance for balta. only 2019 did we get away being a tall short, but the general afl gamestyle through 19/20 worked better with a smaller backline, and 2020 the 2 big backs only really worked when we pushed balta up the ground.

take for example geelong. balta has to play on hawkins, leaving grimes or broad to take cameron. against wc grimes and broad have to take darling and allen. and so on. this then takes away broad and grimes best attributes, which is sagging off the 3rd or 4th best forward to intercept mark under no pressure. of course broad is going to fumble or resort to spoiling taking the second big man, hes severely out matched.

astbury comes back in no question regardless, and we bring in miller to replace balta. then we either roll kmac into broads role, or bring in someone like garthwaite to replace him.

looking to the future we must get back to the 8 man setup of: 2 big (the astbury/rance/balta types), 3 medium/interceptors (grimes/broad/vlastuin), 2 smalls (short/baker) and a dedicated runner (houili).

broad and grimes have a few years left, grimes could play into his mid 30s like a lot of the intercept defender types, so he may have 4-5 years still. broad probably not quite so long, but is i think 2 years younger. balta fills a big man role, and obviously vlastuin/short/baker have years left. the spots we urgently need to fill are the second big man spot (hopefully miller) and the running spot. Medium defenders arent too hard to replace anyway once broad and grimes finish up.

 

[Mr Magic]

we need to play miller and astbury alongside kmac and grimes.

we've been playing 1 big man short down back all year and its shown. 2017 we played rance and astbury as talls alongside broad and grimes as mediums. 2020 swap rance for balta. only 2019 did we get away being a tall short, but the general afl gamestyle through 19/20 worked better with a smaller backline, and 2020 the 2 big backs only really worked when we pushed balta up the ground.

take for example geelong. balta has to play on hawkins, leaving grimes or broad to take cameron. against wc grimes and broad have to take darling and allen. and so on. this then takes away broad and grimes best attributes, which is sagging off the 3rd or 4th best forward to intercept mark under no pressure. of course broad is going to fumble or resort to spoiling taking the second big man, hes severely out matched.

astbury comes back in no question regardless, and we bring in miller to replace balta. then we either roll kmac into broads role, or bring in someone like garthwaite to replace him.

looking to the future we must get back to the 8 man setup of: 2 big (the astbury/rance/balta types), 3 medium/interceptors (grimes/broad/vlastuin), 2 smalls (short/baker) and a dedicated runner (houili).

broad and grimes have a few years left, grimes could play into his mid 30s like a lot of the intercept defender types, so he may have 4-5 years still. broad probably not quite so long, but is i think 2 years younger. balta fills a big man role, and obviously vlastuin/short/baker have years left. the spots we urgently need to fill are the second big man spot (hopefully miller) and the running spot. Medium defenders arent too hard to replace anyway once broad and grimes finish up.

Why not play RCD given McIntosh is more a winger??

 

[Tygrys]

How is it possible some teams draft kids and they play from the word go and we keep players in the system for 5 years only to find out they are still no good. People are even talking up Ross again cause he has a new one-game roll unreal. From Memory, Higgins was the only one and we know how that ended.

First response would be that because we have been competing for premierships. But then again with the likes of D. Rioli and Castagna constantly getting games the bar had been placed pretty low. Perhaps it's like the Australian test team of the 90's it was harder to get in than to be left out. No excuses for any boys club now though.

 

[theyellowsash]

Why not play RCD given McIntosh is more a winger??

Why would we play rcd in broads role? We are crying out for midfielders

 

[RJK Tiger]

what are you talking about?

Geelong dont have the blue print to success last time they went back to back was in the 50's. Problem with their model is yes they play well but will always fall of in the finals or come crunch time. If you look at the stat that really matters we are just as if not more successful than the Cats. The system the AFL has with free agency and trade still isnt good enough to deliver a team a premiership with savy trading and salary management like the NBA. You can not dodge the elite end of the draft.

you watch the Hawks with clarko recruit well for elite young guns and then fill it out with fringe players like we did and win

No one has the blueprint for success, but based on results of the past 2 decades, id say they have shown to have the best one.

14 finals appearances in the past 17 years, including 12 top 4 finishes. Its an exceptional effort that they have maintained being a top 4 teams for over 2 decades without ever falling lower than 10th. They have never had to "bottom out" in over 2 decades. Their football management is 2nd to none in our comp

 

[Bird Man]

No one has the blueprint for success, but based on results of the past 2 decades, id say they have shown to have the best one.

14 finals appearances in the past 17 years, including 12 top 4 finishes. Its an exceptional effort that they have maintained being a top 4 teams for over 2 decades without ever falling lower than 10th. They have never had to "bottom out" in over 2 decades. Their football management is 2nd to none in our comp

12 top four finishes and only three flags is not a good % but i guess its how you view it, fair game rjk

 

[THE_GUN]

12 top four finishes and only three flags is not a good % but i guess its how you view it, fair game rjk

Thats Collingwood like

 

[theyellowsash]

Yeah I'm not sure I'd want to live in hope for the whole year but then get let down in the last week or 2 for 17 years. I'd probably prefer what we did, which was no hope in hell and just celebrating every win, at least we had 22 weeks to prepare to be disappointed in September. It hurts less if you're not expecting anything. Same number of flags came from it.

 

[Mr Magic]

Why would we play rcd in broads role? We are crying out for midfielders

??


Because we have plenty of mids and not enough mid-defenders at the moment. We have a lot of small defenders not mid-defenders

McIntosh is the only winger we have unless Parker can help out. We have a few fill-ins but not many true wingers.

If RCD can work in a defensive system and go in the midfield thats a big plus surely

 

[theyellowsash]

??


Because we have plenty of mids and not enough mid-defenders at the moment. We have a lot of small defenders not mid-defenders

McIntosh is the only winger we have unless Parker can help out. We have a few fill-ins but not many true wingers.

If RCD can work in a defensive system and go in the midfield thats a big plus surely

None of that changes that playing rcd as a medium defender is a silly idea

 

[Mr Magic]

None of that changes that playing rcd as a medium defender is a silly idea

I am looking at on the Couch and they are talking about the Western Bulldogs new great defence. Personally I am not buying it, noy yet, I think its just circumstance related and its still weak currently. They show vision of Bontempelli staying back in a defensive positive to help the backs behind the ball. This is where RCD can come into his own in my opinion. Helping the back half while penetrating forward while Bolton and Dusty exert damage in the front half. That makes a lot of sense to me especially when RCD can kick running goals from deep as well.

They also said our defence has not been as strong earlier in the program and I think, frankly with the new rules, some of our smaller defenders have been caught out to often.

I think part of the problem is belief in a system that has taken a battering with the new rules and weakened its effectiveness

 

[RJK Tiger]

Yeah I'm not sure I'd want to live in hope for the whole year but then get let down in the last week or 2 for 17 years. I'd probably prefer what we did, which was no hope in hell and just celebrating every win, at least we had 22 weeks to prepare to be disappointed in September. It hurts less if you're not expecting anything. Same number of flags came from it.

lol, how short the memory of a tiger-fan is....

The alternative is not always 3 flags in 12 or 3 flags in 4 - the alternative is sometimes, 2 finals wins in 35

A team that can get 12 top 4 finishes in 17 year is an amazingly ran club.

 

[wegetpumped]

First response would be that because we have been competing for premierships. But then again with the likes of D. Rioli and Castagna constantly getting games the bar had been placed pretty low. Perhaps it's like the Australian test team of the 90's it was harder to get in than to be left out. No excuses for any boys club now though.

I follow Leeds in England and the coach is exactly the same as Dimma. He plays the same team all the time others don't get a look in. Now that is all good and proper but what happen to Leeds is Injuries sound familiar? He was forced to play a 19-year-old Goalkeeper and a 20-year old central defender. Now those 2 are first picked which would not have happened if the injuries didn't happen. The keeper was due to the million-dollar signing saying something racist and got banned for 8 games and now can't get his spot back.
What I'm trying to say even the best managers coaches have mindsets set hence when finally the poo hits the fan they have nothing to go on. So doesn't matter how good a team you are if someone is showing signs play them and replace the ones not performing not wait till you are forced to.
The great MB got lucky with those 2. So how many gems are rotting away not just in our club but others also?
There is a long-standing saying in football and that is No Matter How Good You Are you must rejuvenate every year.

 

[box070]

I follow Leeds in England and the coach is exactly the same as Dimma. He plays the same team all the time others don't get a look in. Now that is all good and proper but what happen to Leeds is Injuries sound familiar? He was forced to play a 19-year-old Goalkeeper and a 20-year old central defender. Now those 2 are first picked which would not have happened if the injuries didn't happen. The keeper was due to the million-dollar signing saying something racist and got banned for 8 games and now can't get his spot back.
What I'm trying to say even the best managers coaches have mindsets set hence when finally the poo hits the fan they have nothing to go on. So doesn't matter how good a team you are if someone is showing signs play them and replace the ones not performing not wait till you are forced to.
The great MB got lucky with those 2. So how many gems are rotting away not just in our club but others also?
There is a long-standing saying in football and that is No Matter How Good You Are you must rejuvenate every year.

Did Leeds win 3 of the last 4 titles
Dimma correctly stuck to what was working which we have all celebrated in. He acknowledged at the end of last season that they need to start bringing the next wave through which they are doing now.
How anyone can disparage Dimma for sticking to a successful formula that was reaping results is beyond me.
We are refreshing on the run. Probably won’t pay off this season but the proof will be in 22,23,24

 

[wegetpumped]

Did Leeds win 3 of the last 4 titles
Dimma correctly stuck to what was working which we have all celebrated in. He acknowledged at the end of last season that they need to start bringing the next wave through which they are doing now.
How anyone can disparage Dimma for sticking to a successful formula that was reaping results is beyond me.
We are refreshing on the run. Probably won’t pay off this season but the proof will be in 22,23,24

Dude like I said one of the best managers in the world some class him as a god! does exactly the same thing but they do make mistakes with stubbornness. He unearthed 2 gems because of circumstances. Records will show he has won 3 premierships and nothing will take that away as he will get all the credit all I'm saying that without the helping hand he had we could be talking differently. Prior to that help what did he do and what is he doing now without them?
Finally, I maintain he is an imposter and you maintain he is great so that is what matters so stop following my posts to try to make your point as I have got it ta.

 

[box070]

Dude like I said one of the best managers in the world some class him as a god! does exactly the same thing but they do make mistakes with stubbornness. He unearthed 2 gems because of circumstances. Records will show he has won 3 premierships and nothing will take that away as he will get all the credit all I'm saying that without the helping hand he had we could be talking differently. Prior to that help what did he do and what is he doing now without them?
Finally, I maintain he is an imposter and you maintain he is great so that is what matters so stop following my posts to try to make your point as I have got it ta.

What did he do before?

Let’s see

Rebuilt the entire list and club from absolutely nothing through compromised drafts including 3 consecutive finals appearances. Got some assistance that pushed us to the next level. Even Jordan got assistance. But end of the day buck stops with him. Imagine calling a 3 time premiership coach an imposter. Says more about you and your lack of judgement around the club and football then anything else.
So your calling him an imposter on this season which we are still in the hunt with an horrendous injury list to key players? Take the best ruck, best midfield (4 of) best key back and best key forward out of any side all at the same time and see how they sit. Bet they wouldn’t be sitting in the 8.

I suppose you have been dormant since 2016 like many other posters that have just miraculously popped up.

 

[wegetpumped]

What did he do before?

Let’s see

Rebuilt the entire list and club from absolutely nothing through compromised drafts including 3 consecutive finals appearances. Got some assistance that pushed us to the next level. Even Jordan got assistance. But end of the day buck stops with him. Imagine calling a 3 time premiership coach an imposter. Says more about you and your lack of judgement around the club and football then anything else.
So your calling him an imposter on this season which we are still in the hunt with an horrendous injury list to key players? Take the best ruck, best midfield (4 of) best key back and best key forward out of any side all at the same time and see how they sit. Bet they wouldn’t be sitting in the 8.

I suppose you have been dormant since 2016 like many other posters that have just miraculously popped up.

And you are probably a d h. as you don't seem to understand my opinion as I understood yours. Been around a lot longer than you we can leave it at that champ.

 

[box070]

And you are probably a d h. as you don't seem to understand my opinion as I understood yours. Been around a lot longer than you we can leave it at that champ.

Have you now? It’s obvious your football judgement is poor and misguided. But that’s ok. I’ll happily roll with the evidence that will be shown through history to back me up

 

[wegetpumped]

Have you now? It’s obvious your football judgement is poor and misguided. But that’s ok. I’ll happily roll with the evidence that will be shown through history to back me up

No worries Champ and history will remember you as of tomorrow I'll probably forget about you.

 

[box070]

No worries Champ and history will remember you as of tomorrow I'll probably forget about you.

All I got here was dribble. Good luck champ

 

[wegetpumped]

All I got here was dribble. Good luck champ

All fool for you for participating. Good luck to you also and hope in IRL life you're not suffering like myself.